Forum Topic

Golly wogs

Just listened to this on the news, it is so stupid, why are the Police even wasting their time on the subject. Who when they were young even thought about any connection to colour. I thought it was just a connection to jam. Even the monkeys that you could hang from your door, all children wanted one. It was just all the rage at the time. Also Gonks, or Barbi dolls. Action Man. Why all these years later do people have to make something out of nothing.

Barbara Stevens ● 1019d68 Comments

Mr HawkesAgreed, the reality of racism is that it can lead to criminal charges but that's irrespective of whether there's a commercial penalty or not. I agree with you that we'll probably never know the motivation of the licensees in this case. Having spoken to people who live locally I have my own view concerning this, which is that it probably was meant to be provocative, but I can't prove that. I've not been in the pub in question, although did nearly meet someone there once before this issue came to light. It would appear suppliers who have direct contact with the pub have perhaps drawn a similar conclusion to me, and that has had a commercial affect on the pub. Whether there's a criminal case now will, I suspect, most likely depend on the contents of the social media posts the licensees made.

Michael Ixer ● 1005d

'The commercial reality of racism? The White Hart closes its doors until new licensees arrive'Mr Ixer The real commercial reality of racism is that it can potentially lead to criminal charges.'Any crime can be prosecuted as a hate crime if the offender has either: demonstrated hostility based on race, religion, disability, sexual orientation or transgender identityOrbeen motivated by hostility based on race, religion, disability, sexual orientation or transgender identity'.I would assume this is all predicated on some form of action having taken place.The key issues re the pub are to whom was racial hostility shown; and can the display of such as a doll be considered hostile in any case ?We will never know if the publicans were exercising the right to display what they wanted in an area they managed or were just looking for a fight.Whatever, they have paid their price.None the less the whole issue of 'racism' is a complex complex and fascinating one and the right to express any views on the matter not to be discarded lightly.("Sticks and stones...etc etc)"And of course it is impossible to eradicate 'racist' thought ; at least till we are all controlled by AI !

John Hawkes ● 1005d

Hugh, it might be considered damaging to the suppliers' reputation and commercially reckless, or possibly considered as collusion, to support a business being investigated by the police for an offence of this nature? Remember, the brewers involved here are global businesses supplying customers and accountable to shareholders with a range of diversities.

Michael Ixer ● 1005d

Well, with most people texting and e-mailing, nobody will need to talk soon. Just do sign language and there are a few I can think of. A lot of pointing fingers.

Barbara Stevens ● 1006d

"warboo"?I might argue for the cancellation of this word if I understood it.

David Ainsworth ● 1006d

As this thread meanders its predictable warboo way I read that the pub in question has had to close as its suppliers cancelled it.

Hugh Thompson ● 1006d

The commercial reality of racism? The White Hart closes its doors until new licensees arrive:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-65471314

Michael Ixer ● 1006d

Is that your advice? Any time of day would seem to do, on past observations.

Michael Winstanley ● 1007d

You reckon 10 in the evening is getting up early? Wow, Ms Hammond.

David Ainsworth ● 1011d

Do you get up early to practice bring a prat?

Sue Hammond ● 1011d

So you are a racist after all.

Simon Sharp ● 1012d

This subject has passed,but just seen in the News, Barbi Dolls are being made which look a bit different for children with Down Syndrome, by the look on the young ladies face, they look like they love them.

Barbara Stevens ● 1014d

As somebody recently wrote:-"Can even you not see what a stupid state the country is in when seemingly every action or saying can be racialised?""And if Corbyn were to go how many more would have to follow him ?"For starters:-Starmer, Reed, Rayner, Healey, Reynolds, Thomas-Symonds, Ashworth, McMahon, Haigh, Stevens, Dodds, Chapman, Gill, Allin-Khan, Thornberry, Debbonaire, Campbell, Baroness Smith. They are all in the current Shadow Cabinet under Starmer, and were in Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet.They were present and involved, weren't they? Many lower level members of the Labour Party have been thrown out, but somehow not these people.

David Ainsworth ● 1015d

"Can even you not see what a stupid state the country is in when seemingly every action or saying can be racialised ? "Really? Can they? Don't see it myself. Perhaps it is just an arguable decision. How can we even be debating about the word if "seemingly every action or saying can be racialised"? I don't think, for example, that "over the top", "ludicrous humbug", nor "plank" can be racialised.

David Ainsworth ● 1015d

Can you not see what a stupid state the country is in when people make pronouncements like that (yours) on the basis purely of their own bias, without first investigating what might have been the words used and the context in which they were used.This one went right up to the Court of Appeal, which eventually concluded, given all the facts and evidence at their disposal that "The Court of Appeal upheld the original Employment Tribunal’s judgment, finding that “the most likely explanation was that Mr McAleese had used the word because of Miss Lindsay’s race". But on the basis of a few words in a social media post, you decide that you know better than the Court of Appeal.

Michael Winstanley ● 1016d

This was about the Police having their time wasted. But for Maxine to call me ignorant,  my other half a builder had the Putney lot working with him, or he would work with them. We had laughs in the Fox, went to Goodwood with the Openview, Magdeline Rd. The lady who has sadly died a few years ago lived in the next road would often ring and have a laugh with me, saying her sons wouldn't do something for her would my other half go round, or my son would go to their mates and sort out their TV.  I still see their sister and have a laugh and a natter. But they don't think their any different and enjoy life.

Barbara Stevens ● 1016d

Mr Ainsworth"A chef’s use of the word “gollywog” in front of a black colleague when referring to the old Robertsons jam jar label has been held by the Court of Appeal to constitute harassment." (2013)Can even you not see what a stupid state the country is in when seemingly every action or saying can be racialised ? 

John Hawkes ● 1016d

Mr AinsworthAs reported by the BBC News -'His time in charge of the party was dogged by allegations of anti-Semitic abuse and harassment by some of its supporters, especially on social media.In May 2019, the Equalities and Human Rights Commission announced it would be investigating the party over its handling of the claims.And on Thursday, it found Labour responsible for three breaches of the Equality Act:Political interference in anti-Semitism complaints.Failure to provide adequate training to those handling anti-Semitism complaints.Harassment, including the use of anti-Semitic tropes and suggesting that complaints of anti-Semitism were fake or smears.In his response to the EHRC's findings, Mr Corbyn said he had "acted to speed up, not hinder the process" of dealing with complaints, but the scale of anti-Semitism within Labour had been "dramatically overstated for political reasons by our opponents inside and outside the party".Why is he still a member ?Well he has lost the Labour whip and thus cannot claim to be a Labour MP.As to membership, well I am sure it would need Wittgenstein to understand what qualifies or disqualifies anyone from being a Labour Party member.And I expect Starmer thinks there are more pressing problems for him and the country than bothering too much over the country's most prominent IRA, Hamas and Hezbollah supporter.And if Corbyn were to go how many more would have to follow him ?

John Hawkes ● 1016d

"A chef’s use of the word “gollywog” in front of a black colleague when referring to the old Robertsons jam jar label has been held by the Court of Appeal to constitute harassment." (2013)https://redmans.co.uk/insights/gollywog-reference-held-by-employment-tribunal-to-be-racial-harassment/

David Ainsworth ● 1016d

I think both Mr Hawkes and Ms Hammond are being disingenuous with their posts.Obviously, there are black dolls available, as others have noted many are available from Amazon and elsewhere. I doubt Amazon will sell golliwogs though because of the historical racist connotations.The white doll won't mean anything to a white person like me as for me it has no cultural association with any historical racist ideas and other prejudices. The article posted by David from the Jim Crow Museum detailing the golliwog caricature history indicates why that will not be the same for a black person confronted with a golliwog - it's been embedded as a symbol of a racist culture. Gratuitously displaying such a symbol and issuing social media messages of a possible racist nature will be investigated by the police as that could be an offence. If they don't there will likely be complaints.

Michael Ixer ● 1016d

This is what Wikipedia says:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golliwog

Ivonne Holliday ● 1016d

No, not at all. I believe Maxine made this comment on the basis of the significance of golliwogs.If you've followed the thread, the owners of the pub in question have deliberately baited people with their golliwog display, together with remarks such as "hanging them in Mississipi". This sort of behaviour is societally corrosive and whilst some other crime - say blowing up a local mosque - might be more deserving of police attention, this one rightly did not escape their attention.

Michael Winstanley ● 1016d

"I am sure that like me you will find it satisfying to see that Diane Abbott has lost the Labour whip for her antisemitic views, albeit expressed via some sort of linguistic error."And she has apologised for the letter. "But of course so many Labour lefties don't see antisemitism as racist.Ask Jeremy Corbyn."Any actual examples come to mind?Because if he was antisemitic, how come he still a member of the Labour Party under Starmer?

David Ainsworth ● 1016d

So we can be called ignorramus, for having a view on police having their time wasted.

Barbara Stevens ● 1016d

No-one has ever called me a wog or a golliwog. Thus I am not offended by you posting this picture. However, borrowing Maxine's phrase from above, which I thought was apt, I am frustrated at your ignorance

Michael Winstanley ● 1016d

You can google what is the history of gollywogs. It was only afterwards, Robertsons decided to put them on their jam.  Now they are worth a lot of money. Children came first who loved them.

Barbara Stevens ● 1016d

Steiff golly wog dolls were created in 1908, these are now worth between S10000 and S15000. So if you have one I'd be grateful.

Barbara Stevens ● 1016d

Mr AinsworthYour holier than thou sanctimonious attitude is both boring and insulting.You are not the only one that thinks racist behaviour and comment are wrong and would not themselves indulge in such.It's just that we don't keep banging on about it in order to show our moral superiority.That being said, I am sure that like me you will find it satisfying to see that Diane Abbott has lost the Labour whip for her antisemitic views, albeit expressed via some sort of linguistic error.But of course so many Labour lefties don't see antisemitism as racist.Ask Jeremy Corbyn.Probably because many Jews have a 'whitish' skin tone and look 'like us' and only 'non-whites' can suffer racism.And also of course because we all know they are all 'financially privileged'.

John Hawkes ● 1016d

"Sorry Sue, no I'm not offended, that's why it never entered my head."But really what does?"Jail for man who wore Ku Klux Klan outfit and posed with lynched golliwogEx-National Front member Christopher Philips gets 12 months for distributing visual images intended to stir racial hatred"https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jan/08/jail-klu-klux-klan-golliwog-christopher-philips

David Ainsworth ● 1016d

Sorry Sue, no I'm not offended, that's why it never entered my head.

Barbara Stevens ● 1016d

But are you offended by it and do you think it's racist?

Sue Hammond ● 1016d

Looks like Marty Feldman. Bet it was knitted by a lovely elderly lady for Charity.

Barbara Stevens ● 1016d

Right, who wants to be offended by this one?

Sue Hammond ● 1016d

Google it! Is that beyond you? Look it up on Wikipedia.Kind regardsNot your butler.

Michael Winstanley ● 1016d

Precisely,  David, the display of these items at the White Hart, Grays, has to be put into the context of comments made by the pubs landlord and the historical meaning of the items. I've seen racist art and artefacts in galleries and museums but there are now explanations of what their significance and meaning was historically. 

Michael Ixer ● 1016d

Mr WinstanleyIn the spirit of Mr Corbyn's: 'I want a kinder politics' and his call for an end to "personal abuse" in his first speech to the Labour Party Conference as leader, urging delegates to "treat people with respect" and "cut out the personal abuse', I wonder if you would be kind enough to point out the source of your claim to know 'how golly wogs are regarded these days by the majority in our society and how this status was arrived at'.Toodle pip !

John Hawkes ● 1016d

"I understood that there was an unwritten social view that said it should be practice that children of all skin colours or racial groupings should have toys etc which they could associate with. Is this no longer the case if the police have the power, encouragement (and the time !) to remove black dolls from shop shelves ?"No, I just checked on Amazon.UK and there were 344 black dolls available to all. By the way, the golliwogs were on display on shelves in a pub. Do you think that they were there to help with child care, really?https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11961673/Pub-landlord-centre-golliwogs-row-denies-hes-racist-White-Lives-Matter-posts.html"A pub landlord at the centre of a row over golliwogs has denied that he is racist after controversial social media posts from him emerged declaring support for 'White Lives Matter'.In another post, Chris Ryley wrote: 'They used to hang them in Mississippi years ago' alongside a picture of the dolls hanging from his bar."

David Ainsworth ● 1016d

They were not "black dolls" you plonker. Black dolls are very common and easy to purchase if you would like one. Try the Barbie Fashionista Barbie Doll, Retro Florals from John Lewis. Or Ann Summers may have something more in your demographic.They were golly wogs. A few moments careful study would inform any one who is interested to know how golly wogs are regarded these days by the majority in our society and how this status was arrived at.

Michael Winstanley ● 1016d

Are non-white children allowed to have dolls that have a white skin tone and vice versa ?I understood that there was an unwritten social view that said it should be practice that children of all skin colours or racial groupings should have toys etc which they could associate with.Is this no longer the case if the police have the power, encouragement (and the time !) to remove black dolls from shop shelves ?When a doll is being bought for a child, will the sales assistant have to make sure the toy and intended child recipient are of similar hue and ethnic grouping ?The real and sad problem today is that politics is not driven by the dialectic of economics or foreign policy but instead by identity politics and victim culture.What you believe in is supposedly to be defined by what racial group you place yourself or are placed in by others.And if you are in one group (non-white) you are a victim and if in another (white) you are an oppressor - now and as a result of what your ancestors did in the past.No one would claim that racial prejudice has been eliminated in this country.For a start prejudice can never totally be eliminated as it is the mind set of individuals.How many posters on this site are prejudiced against Conservatives (you know who you are !) ?But society does progress on the issue of race as its demographic (age and ancestry) changes.And who on this site would say that GB in its institutions and corporate practices as a whole is 'racially prejudiced' ?

John Hawkes ● 1016d

When in a hole stop digging.

Andy Pike ● 1018d

Don't you start Jane. Well we were white honkys

Barbara Stevens ● 1018d

I don't think I can add to what Jane has said, I can't imagine how Maxine feels. Time to leave the last word with Maxine and stop posting to this thread?

Michael Ixer ● 1018d

Thank you Jane.

Maxine Campbell ● 1018d

Very well said, Maxine. Totally agree with your comments and empathise with your anger.

Jane Carter ● 1018d

Re-reading your response. I lived in a house in the posher end of Fulham in the 60s and 70s, there was one black family and one Indian family on the street and we were routinely verbally abused in the name of fun. golliwog jokes and jokes about black people eating "coonflakes" for breakfast being standard fare. My neighbourhood was "decent" and we had many middle class families, I went to a catholic school and we were brought up in a loving but disciplined household. I'm sorry but your comment has made me so angry and you then casually justifying and dismissing your attitudes to German people etc is unacceptable.

Maxine Campbell ● 1018d

Yes Michael, but they might be more likely to marry. Yes, good for picking me up on that one.

Barbara Stevens ● 1018d

Surely you mean that people don't bother to marry who they want, white or black?

Michael Winstanley ● 1018d

Yes indeed - and Agatha Christie's book was first published in the US under a different title - in the UK it was many years before it was changed. For a while it was "ten little indians". In the US, it was always "And Then There Were None". It is impossible though to divorce the plot of the book from the nursery rhyme.

Michael Winstanley ● 1018d

Also I may be older,but we made more fun out of the Germans when I was young, because we won the war. Young men would pass wind and say that was a Gerry killer. Anyway why is there a problem now, when people marry who they want white or black.

Barbara Stevens ● 1018d

Ok, David, perhaps one's interpretation of it depended on who you watched it with?

Michael Ixer ● 1018d

"Till death us do part" sadly managed to shoot itself in the foot. Speight meant to create a monster, but Warren Mitchell "imbued the character of Alf Garnett with an earthy charm that served to humanise Alf and make him likeable. According to interviews he gave, the fact that some viewers overlooked Alf's racist views and regarded him as a "rough diamond" disappointed Speight." (Wikipedia)And "the randy Scouse git" character didn't work well as a balance.

David Ainsworth ● 1018d

Well, we are poms, why spend so much time worrying what other people think. Little children who's parents never came back from the war, or didn't have a dad, were called names at school. Now people don't even bother getting married. Life is too short to have a chip on your shoulder.

Barbara Stevens ● 1018d

That's interesting, Andy, I always thought Alf Garnet was supposed to be a caricature making fun of  racist, sexist and xenophobic elderly, white, males, but I didn't watch TV much in those days.

Michael Ixer ● 1018d

Yes, David, and in March 2018 Thurrock Council came up with a reason in response to a complaint that February as to why they wouldn't take any action "Following the investigation, this issue is not a matter for the council under the Licensing Act 2003 or Public Order legislation." Nothing to do with the huge UKIP office in Grays at that time? https://www.yourthurrock.com/2018/03/29/thurrock-council-not-take-action-golliwogs-white-hart-pub-grays/

Michael Ixer ● 1018d

Of course David the tide was turning on the late 60s but mainstream tv still had shows like till death is do part until the mid to late 70s. Which almost legitimized the sort of language now totally unacceptable. I remember a good friend of mine from boys club hating the programme.

Andy Pike ● 1018d

Apparently been doing this sort of thing for years:-https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/13/essex-police-investigating-golliwog-pub-display-examine-landlord-lynching-post

David Ainsworth ● 1018d

There is an article (from the USA) which includes material on the UK's important part in this image:-https://tinyurl.com/y995nnxw

David Ainsworth ● 1018d

Thanks for that, Mr Pike. I would however suggest that the images were becoming unacceptable even in the (later) 1960s, from my personal experience.

David Ainsworth ● 1018d

although the terrorist line made me smile maybe read this.The United States was a nation undergoing destruction and reconstruction in the 1860’s. Towards the end of the Civil War, President Lincoln agreed to gesture the freeing of all African slaves through the Emancipation Proclamation. Even as they found themselves in a position of subordination, forced to concede their free slave labor for the Union’s promise to reconstruct their ruined lands and severed ties to the North, the former citizens of the Confederacy refused to compromise their ideology of the freed slaves’ inferiority. In fact, folklore developed to further propagate the belief of black inferiority. A “comic” song titled Ten Little N*****s circulated through the United States in minstrel shows and children’s nursery rhyme books typical of the proliferation of materials focused on the degradation of the African American race.

Maxine Campbell ● 1018d

I am assuming so Michael

Maxine Campbell ● 1018d

I should declare I'm unclear from the original post which incident this arose from - was it the White Hart in Grays?

Michael Ixer ● 1018d

Well back in the day, the word n****** was only ever associated with people murdered in Agatha Christie novels in groups of 10 and the history of slavery was far from peoples' minds.At least the police didn't claim to be confiscating the golliwogs under anti-terrorist powers - be thankful for small mercies.

Michael Winstanley ● 1018d

Just wow Barbara. I may be younger but not naive. I was not being rude, you have decided to interpret my frustration at your ignorance of the times in that way. I certainly remember the Robertsons brand but I also remember the fact that white people used golliwog as a racist term. I'll leave you to your jam making.

Maxine Campbell ● 1018d

Barbara. Stop, listen and think. It's obvious why Maxine gets the last word on this topic. 

Michael Ixer ● 1018d

So if you give a little girl a cuddly fluffy doggie, means shes an old dog.

Barbara Stevens ● 1019d

Oh Barbara you really are out of touch. Many things that were 'acceptable' in the 60s and 70s are just not on in this day and age, quite rightly so.

Andy Pike ● 1019d

Maxine, the way you talk, I must be a lot older than you. But years ago jam was the only connection to the subject. I was brought up in a decent neighbourhood and would not be allowed to treat another child like that or I would be in trouble. Trouble is with all the young men about now and all the stabbings, people have changed their attitude. Maxine even your reply, get in touch with yourself, why be rude, If that is the way you feel, perhaps people have noticed that in you, that's why the way they react to you. I'll will talk to everybody.

Barbara Stevens ● 1019d

Wrong on all levels Barbara. when I was young there was every connection to colour and was often called a gollywog. get in touch with yourself.

Maxine Campbell ● 1019d