Forum Topic

One for Barclays Customers

Just to say, lovely, helpful Jo is leaving tomorrow.  I will miss her.

Martine Guy ● 807d56 Comments

"a green economy" - in your terms, one which doesn't use any fuel at all, is simply a fairy story and will remain so beyond my childrens' lifespan. It is utterly pointless making such comparisons.

Michael Winstanley ● 800d

"weapons versus a green economy"A green economy would save us from having to buy second hand fuel from Russia. So I do not see it being one or the other."Let's be honest it's a lot easier to change jobs than to move country"I suspect emigration figures will continue to rise. There is still the common travel area. Brexit would have covered neutral Austria, Malta & Switzerland but you can still apply.Retail banking have been closing branches. Moving companies might not only mean less pay and benefits but also an increase risk of redundancy, plus the loss of redundancy payments that would be received from many years service. It may also mean more travelling.So yes for most people it would be more difficult but in this case possibly not.I check out the Accidental Death of an Anarchist recommendation :)

Ed Robinson ● 800d

Ed. Good you've clarified that. Obviously,  sometimes one had to compromise and be pragmatic, weapons versus a green economy? (I don't like it much either but perhaps the human race will determine its own extinction?) Let's be honest it's a lot easier to change jobs than to move country,  particularly post Brexit! I know a number of people who could have earned more money if they had compromised their ideals.Why don't you have a good laugh and go and see the Accidental Death of an Anarchist at the Lyric Hammersmith? I think you need to look at the ridiculousness of some of these situation :-) [It may be sold out now, but rumour has it that it's probably moving to the West End soon.]

Michael Ixer ● 800d

Michael I - I did not mention anything about disarming I'm just stating the fact that war and preparing for war may be right or wrong but it certainly is not green."are you suggesting we shouldn't pay our taxes"No, I just pointing out that Matt could have moved to a neutral country in the same way as he expects someone to move companies. After all his tax contributions are funding ecocide.As for the EU given the admissions about the Minsk agreements it seems neither prepared sufficiently for war nor the economic impact. With the US first policy together with BRICS they seem to have somehow managed to hasten Europe's demise.No doubt Michael W will excuse the inexcusable of pushing Russia and China together at the same time as spooking other countries into decreasing their dependency on Western currencies.

Ed Robinson ● 801d

I think Ed wants the utopia where we've all disarmed, all our energy is produced from renewables, all our trade is fair, the health and care services are adequately funded and free to all who need them ... and all politicians are honest? You might say don't we all want that, but apparently not because many want more of the share in the pie and control over others. I've been in a management meeting whare one director is taking over from another and the guy has said (knowing the previous director is being walked out the door at the time) "well, it's either my kids' school fees, or his". In this world one's got to be realistic about what's achievable and stand up against the bullies in a pragmatic way? And perhaps that means sometimes one also has to be a little devious to do that? :-)

Michael Ixer ● 801d

Ed seems to be fast turning into one of those Putin shills that seem to infest social media these days. Does he actually live in Putney or on a "farm" in St Petersberg?

Michael Winstanley ● 801d

"Of course, if the capitalist system had treated Russia more fairly after the demise of communism then perhaps Putin wouldn't be in a position of power but, as some of my American friends would say, we are where we are."Carpetbagging, as some Americans might say.  "we are where we are."We are in a hole and still digging.

David Ainsworth ● 801d

So, Ed, what's your answer, we all disarm and let a ruthless dictator take us all over? We haven't all forgotten that the Council of Europe and the EEC were set up to provide unions that would prevent war between countries that had been bickering between each other for centuries. I'm not in favour of excessive spending on armaments but one has to be pragmatic about these things when there are dictators such as Putin around. Of course, if the capitalist system had treated Russia more fairly after the demise of communism then perhaps Putin wouldn't be in a position of power but, as some of my American friends would say, we are where we are.Anyway,  we can excuse Matt from supporting the arms race perpetuated, as you say, by the right wing and centrists as I believe from previous posts he's sail he votes for the Green Party? And, Ed, are you suggesting we shouldn't pay our taxes if we don't want them spent on weapons?

Michael Ixer ● 801d

Matt, you demonstrate exemplary patience and good humour in the face of this endless carping and unwarranted personal criticism.

Jane Carter ● 801d

Ed, you're right, i've finally been busted. I have indeed been paying my tax and therefore funding climate breakdown via the UK gov.In fact, it's even worse than that. I also exhale C02 and therefore contribute to global warming, I am deeply ashamed.I do hope the good people of Putney can forgive my hypocrisy.

Matt Palmer ● 801d

Sounds very sensible but it is not just investment by private companies.The UK (including opposition) & other countries are committed to war and the associated costs both financial and environmental.The environmental movements tends to go very quiet on such matters.Then there is the EU which founding principle long forgotten by remainers was to prevent war in Europe. Queuing at borders seems to concern them more.The fuel of a private jet is insignificant to a fighter jet yet not on XR radar.Then there is Nord Stream which seems likely to have been blown up by the US, well they did say they would stop it.Sweden joining Nato isn't a big deal in the sense that it has not been truly neutral but it does mean that it will have to commit a larger proportion of its GDP to defence at least 3.5% compared to the current 1.3% (It was 0.9% in 2015).Anyone heard Swedish environmentalists speaking out?The Hallam model seems to be built on kicking down not up.

Ed Robinson ● 801d

Not to sure where this thread is going but I would suspect anyone with a private or company pension has investments in the oil and gas industry? An exception might be those with a SIPP who stick with ethical investments only, but as Mr W has pointed out if part of one's investments are in tracker funds they'll be non ethical investments there. If one lives in a capalist country it's difficult to avoid such things ...

Michael Ixer ● 801d

"Roger Hallam, one of the original founders (but since departed) of XR."Not according to various reports - he has just been demoted and is no longer holds a strategic position."Perhaps Ed could subscribe to his you tube channel.."Is that the XR channel which seems to have lots of his videos?I suspect that Matt and many of the XR activists have financed the UK government through their taxes which have not only helped to keep the banks afloat but also have been leaders in various wars, partners to organisations that continue to "financing ecocide". Many no double support one of the main political parties which have identical policies on such issues.Is it any different to ask these mainly white, middle class professionals why they have not left the UK?

Ed Robinson ● 802d

Typically uninformed article. Most UK QE was purchase of government bonds. So effectively the government bought its own debt, extinguishing the future liability to repay it. So now the market value of that debt has fallen - but it would have been in the same p[ostion had it just issued less new debt rather than issuing debt and buying its own bonds at the same time. You can hardly lose money on a obligation to pay money to yourself.If there is a "loss" from the QE program, where are the real assets being consumed or foregone to meet that loss? Don't spend too long looking.On the other hand, look at the value created by the higher level of activity in the economy which resulted from QE. I guess some people might have preferred a 1930's depression on steroids, but I was not/am not one of them.

Michael Winstanley ● 802d

I think he's referring to Roger Hallam, one of the original founders (but since departed) of XR.He was locked up in prison without trial for months so no idea what he's been up to. Perhaps Ed could subscribe to his you tube channel for more regular updates.

Matt Palmer ● 802d

It is hard to follow but there seems to be some germ of a conspiracy theory and an argument that the two goals of protecting ourselves (NATO) and reducing the possibility of climate change are contradictory.Ut all seems a bit daft to me. Keeping myself warm and avoiding climate change are pretty contradictory goals too, but humans are quite clever animals, capable of pursuing a hierarchy of competing objectives whilst making trade-offs between them.You'd have to help me with "Halam". That one has me stumped,

Michael Winstanley ● 802d

Sorry Ed, I have absolutely no idea what you are on about lol

Matt Palmer ● 802d

They seem to have missed the significance of retail bank cashiers in the article.https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-02-27/uk-says-boe-losses-on-qt-may-mean-200-billion-hit-for-taxpayers?leadSource=uverify%20wall

Ed Robinson ● 802d

Matt,From memory some of those XR finances were from organisations in Sweden. Like or hate NATO it is difficult to see how increasing military expenditure will help the environment.The Halam and Swedish cults have been remarkably quiet on a range of issues that have impacted the environment negatively. But someone working in a branch of a retail bank obviously is of huge importance.Maybe the Halam and Swedish cults should consider their continued contributions to states that have done more harm to the environment than any bank?You have to ask why they are still members of such states when they are clearly financing climate breakdown?

Ed Robinson ● 802d

Well I certainly didn't single the person in question out for criticism, I simply suggested that maybe she'd had enough of working for a bank that finances climate breakdown.If that was her reason for leaving (and let's face it, we all know it probably wasn't) then I congratulate her!As for XR finances, I've posted the link to the open spreadsheets that shows all the finances so many times I have lost count. You even went through it once and came back with some comments. It's really not my job to keep reminding you of things that you have already read. :)

Matt Palmer ● 802d

"and governments don't play their part"Which is why I mention governments and political parties to my question to Matt.Michael W made some good points put it did not include QE nor did it address the UK government with a long history of coups, wars or associations with governments to supply the West with cheap fuel!Is it fair to say that the NHS was subsidised by the Iran coup  in the 50's?Democracy is not a concept that either of the main partied have considered the world worthy of when National interests dictate otherwise. Oddly enough the environmentalists have been extremely quiet on these issues from the Nord Stream gas line to the  Hammersmith Bridge.If you support Nato and argue climate change at the same time - it is a complete nonsense be you a Swedish or a UK citizen.Yet given the huge sums and deeds by the UK government in protecting mainly white, higher upper middle class voters (the main composition of XR members according to articles) someone in a retail banking job should be single out for criticism.I wonder where the XR funds come from?

Ed Robinson ● 803d

Barbara  Yes we've had Zip taps and Quookers in offices - great for lots of cups of tea and coffee but also need regular maintenance.  My parents had a very small water heater mounted on the wall near the kitchen sink in the 60s/70s with a gauge (like newer jug kettles) that boiled water and filled the teapot from that and could also use it for extra hot water if necessary for washing up etc.  It was called a Creda Corvette.  My grandmother gave me her old teasmade which we used until it stopped working.  We always had to remember to take some milk upstairs and it sometimes went off :(. Not all saucepans do come with lids - those little enamel ones don't - but you will reduce steam and condensation if you use lids.  Did you ever have one of those glass things you put in the bottom of a saucepan so that when the milk began to boil it made a noise and you could grab the pan off the heat before it boiled over?

Philippa Bond ● 803d

Philippa, people used to use a saucepan to boil the milk for coffee. Of course saucepans have lids they come with them when you buy them. Also I don't know what planet you have come from but people always used to boil their kettle on the hob. Also some people had a teas made. You now even have hot water straight from you new lovely tap that you use for tea and coffee, so you don't have to boil anything.

Barbara Stevens ● 803d

One aspect that I had not considered is the minimum amount of water in the kettle, such that for just one cup, you have to heat too much water. For 2 cups, the kettle ought to use less electricity than the electric hob - I'm pretty sure it would.A GAS hob though would cost much less though, because gas is just much cheaper as a source of power in the home than electricity - look at the rates per kWhr on your bill.

Michael Winstanley ● 804d

Pans can have lids - although I don't remember the French ever putting a lid on the pan they boiled the water for their coffee in.  (They always looked for a pan when they came to stay because none of them had a kettle at home.)  You can also get kettles to put on the hob.

Philippa Bond ● 804d

The responses in this link are interesting... https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-2452,00.html#:~:text=IT%20TAKES%20the%20same%20amount,amount%20of%20time%20each%20takes. Reminds me of explaining in an OU assignment why my measurements of the Sun's luminosity weren't a 100% correct! :-)

Michael Ixer ● 804d

A pan on the hob causes steam. An electric kettle you only need to put enough water for what you want, even though you still get steam. What about barbi's in the summer cooking outside, what about all the smoke from them. We had an immersion heater when I was young, only needed to turn on for a while before use.

Barbara Stevens ● 804d

Seems unlikely. Was this a carefully controlled experiment do you think, using the same amount of water? A electric kettle is closed, with insulated sides, a pan on the hob is not.

Michael Winstanley ● 804d

Andy, don't you get tired of asking the same pointless questions again and again? How as a tenant am I supposed to do that?If someone wants to have a sensible discussion i'm more than willing but this is just silly.

Matt Palmer ● 804d

My son tells me that it uses more energy to boil the electric kettle than to boil the water for morning tea on the electric hob.  He's measured it.

Philippa Bond ● 804d

But surely you will refuse to use this gas boiler on a point of principal. Whilst it may belong to your landlord it is utilised by you.we naval limit our use of fossil fuels but the eco mobs so not differentiate between us good guys and those that use excessive fossil fuels. After all we only have your word on limited use.

Andy Pike ● 804d

No Andy, you are incorrect. My landlord has a relatively new gas boiler :)I'm very confident that my use of fossil fuels is well below the UK average. As we all know though, wearing an extra jumper isnt going to count for sh*t if large companies and governments don't play their part.

Matt Palmer ● 804d

Ah, jumpers. I wonder what ever happened to wearing jumpers?

David Ainsworth ● 804d

I seem to recall  Matt that you gave a relatively new gas boiler. Presumably it is not kn she and you warm your washing water in the sun and wear an extra jumper for heat and presumably live by candle light.

Andy Pike ● 804d

"Assuming a linear reduction, year by year, that would mean we  need about 50 years' annual consumption at current rates to see us through."No doubt that if this issue has been taken seriously from the 80's onwards then maybe a gradual reduction would be possible. However we are now in a situation where the IPCC says that greenhouse gas emissions must peak by 2025 and reduce by 43% by 2030.Business as usual, Barclays or not isn't going to cut it.

Matt Palmer ● 804d

I gave it a little more thought. No-one has a viable and realistic plan for ceasing use of oil and gas altogether. But I'm going to take a stab at it and guess that the right technologies will be discovered in time and that it will take a hundred years to achieve this aim (some would say this is optimistic).Assuming a linear reduction, year by year, that would mean we  need about 50 years' annual consumption at current rates to see us through.Then I looked up the total for world proven reserves and find that for both oil and gas, the current total is around 50 years. So it is a pretty marginal judgement to decree that we should cease all oil and gas exploration - let alone development of and production from existing fields.To be taken seriously, a more targeted approach is required. I think bashing Barclays on the argument presented so far is rather pointless.

Michael Winstanley ● 804d

"I'm actually surprised by the level of Barclays' involvement in providing new money"Well at least you are accepting my point.As for how to differentiate between good and bad, no I can't tell you that, i'm not qualified to do so and there's no reason why I should be.

Matt Palmer ● 804d

Unlike you, the report you link is sensible enough to differentiate between the providing of new money to oil and gas projects and the trading/holding of securities which have already been issued (my tracker funds make no difference and I am keeping them).I'm actually surprised by the level of Barclays' involvement in providing new money - though it is given as a total for the last 7 years, not an annual figure nor a current holding.Moreover it remains a simplistic approach - we still use oil and gas and cannot avoid doing so for the forseeable future. "Net Zero" is a 27 year away target, which cannot under current strategies be achieved and even it could, will involve continued use of oil and gas.Can you tell me how I am to differentiate between the good oil and gas (the stuff we will have to carry on using) and the bad?

Michael Winstanley ● 804d

Much more information for you herehttps://www.bankingonclimatechaos.org/bankingonclimatechaos2021/#score-card-panel"Should I divest all my tracker funds to get rid of the "taint" of oil and gas?"Erm, yes.

Matt Palmer ● 804d

I agree it's more difficult and more of an effort for us to make any changes.  However it is Business As Usual for so many years after being warned that has brought us to point and we can wise up and make some changes.So every cellphone will be ringing on 23rd April with the Govt emergency alarm.  How many people will have ignored any information about that Inconvenient truth as they go about business as usual?

Philippa Bond ● 804d

It's largely nonsense that Barclays "invests" in climate destroying oil and gas businesses. It's possible I suppose that its corporate lending division makes a few loans to independents doing exploration and opening up new wells - that's not going to be £167bn!What's actually happening is that Barclays is an investment manager and acts as a safe custodian for other people's money which is invested in such businesses. The financial markets just wouldn't work if Barclays and other investment managers started picking and choosing the companies their clients were allowed to invest in (well it would work - everyone would have to go to some private provider of investment management services and the oil and gas companies would carry on regardless).To give an example, I hold units in a FTSE 100 tracker fund called Ishares. Barclays don't actually run this anymore, they sold it to Black Rock a few years back, but it's a good enough example. To be a tracker, Ishares' FTSE 100 fund needs to own shares in Shell and BP. Thus before you know it, the manager of the Ishares fund is responsible for a massive investment in oil and gas. Except it's not - the responsibility lies with me.Should I divest all my tracker funds to get rid of the "taint" of oil and gas? Well until someone comes up with a way to supply 100% of our energy needs without using either, no.Net zero, few people realise, involves carrying on using some oil and gas, but planting lots of trees to compensate.Complete decarbonisation of thw world economy is several decades off at best and relies on technologies not yet invented.It's pointless castigating Barclays for the failure of governments like our own to put in place decarbonisation strategies more quickly. The castigation needs to be aimed at - have a guess - our government.On the other hand, Barclays pay poor rates on deposits, give ne no cashback on their credit cards and charge high fees for mediocre investment advice, so outside of their tracker funds, I shalln't be bothering them much with my custom.

Michael Winstanley ● 804d

You will be very pleased to know Barbara that our son actually knows very little about my XR life :) Although he is fully educated about the causes of climate change we don't particularly dwell on the future consequences of it. We both much prefer him to be the happy little (not so little now!) boy that he is.I hope that reassures you somewhat :)

Matt Palmer ● 804d

Matt, you might be XR, but don't you think your a bit neurotic about life itself. I really don't think it's good for your children. Do you tell them not to thank people because their not XR.  Do you tell them not to mix with other people. It sounds to be a bit like the moonies, or Scientologists. Also it's like telling them the end is nigh, you will end up with them depressed about life, instead of being happy. XR's don't laugh they just make other people laugh at them.

Barbara Stevens ● 804d

And yes, people are voting with their feet and choosing where and how they shop and where they bank.https://bank.green/

Philippa Bond ● 804d

"Is there a list of XR approved organisations, governments and political parties that are not contributing to financing ecocide?"Well, in terms of banks, yes. As per my original response you can see the banks that don't finance ecocide here.https://bank.green/Hope the reminder helps.

Matt Palmer ● 804d

It's business as usual which is the problem!

Philippa Bond ● 804d

And they wonder why there policies of targeting ordinary people are not popular.Is there a list of XR approved organisations, governments and political parties that are not contributing to financing ecocide?

Ed Robinson ● 804d

None of that is blaming her, it's simply wondering if she has decided she doesnt want to work for a company financing ecocide.Frankly I don't blame her.

Matt Palmer ● 805d

Here it comes:"Perhaps she had a crisis of conscience?https://bank.green/banks/barclaysThey've invested about $ 166.7 billion USD in fossil fuels in the 6 years since 197 countries agreed to drastically reduce their greenhouse gas emissions in the Paris Agreement."

Ivonne Holliday ● 805d

Ivonne, Please point out where I "blamed the bank's policies on people who work in a branch in Putney...."thanks

Matt Palmer ● 805d

Matt,Martine's post was about somebody who was working there.Very different from politics decided by the people in charge and based in the City (or elsewhere).I do not think anybody will challenge climate change, but people need to work and you cannot blame the bank's policies on people who work in a branch in Putney....

Ivonne Holliday ● 805d

As you wish, my last point will be that climate change is not controversial and as last year's record high temperatures showed it's very much local.

Matt Palmer ● 805d

I’ve said all I am going to on this thread which was, I thought,  something local and non controversial.

Martine Guy ● 805d

There's nothing political about it all.I don't know how old your daughter is but if you'd like her to live a happy life one of the ways you help bring that about is by moving your money and telling Barclays why you are doing it. Especially now your favourite member of staff has left.

Matt Palmer ● 805d

Can’t you just leave this as it is, Matt, without dragging politics into it. Good to see other customers saying their farewells, when I went in with my daughter to do the same yesterday.  She has been in the Putney branch many years and my family will miss her.

Martine Guy ● 805d

Perhaps she had a crisis of conscience?https://bank.green/banks/barclaysThey've invested about $ 166.7 billion USD in fossil fuels in the 6 years since 197 countries agreed to drastically reduce their greenhouse gas emissions in the Paris Agreement.

Matt Palmer ● 805d