Forum Topic

70's

Heaven help you if your 70, they have written you off already. Now trying their best to get rid of older drivers, who can probably drive better than some of the speeding youngsters. When is this going to end.  It's not just cars causing all the traffic, it's lorries,parcel deliveries, food deliveries, buses etc. Some lorry drivers aren't the best at driving either.

Barbara Stevens ● 1133d45 Comments

In Queensland Australia I have reached the age (80) where I require  Doctor and eye testing validation every year to be able to drive on our roads

Patrick Barrs ● 1129d

Apparently there are thousands of uninsured drivers and thousands of untaxed vehicles on the roads but there is nothing to say that they are not British.https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jan/28/man-driving-for-more-than-70-years-tells-notts-police-ive-never-had-a-licence

Philippa Bond ● 1129d

https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/lifestyle/ed-begley-oscars-la-public-transport-b2302767.html

Philippa Bond ● 1130d

I wonder how many people living in the UK from different countries,actually have a British driving Licence. When I worked at Peugeot, a car cleaner who was from Gambia, he was moving cars around and actually took a car from the dealership and drove it home to East London. When he arrived the next morning he got really irate because I did not have the keys to the forecourt, so he had to leave it outside, so they would find out he drove home in it. He threatened me, I told the bosses, that's when they found out he didn't have a British Driving License. This was a few years ago not now. He told me his father would put a voodoo spell on me.  Still not sure if he did as I did get ill. Might have been stress.

Barbara Stevens ● 1130d

Ed, the state pension age is currently 66. As employers seem poor at employing people over 60 (50?) it seems pointless raising the pension age. Yes, I'd agree with you about checks for drivers; presumably you'd see the drivers or, where relevant, their employers paying the costs of additional medical or other checks?

Michael Ixer ● 1130d

It's very Catch 22.  When another country has sections of its population with no rights and being repressed and massacred or have other conditions in which they  cannot live and you don't intervene in any way or just try to ignore it then you can find that those people if they can will decide to move countries.  Not all peoples have their own countries.  Maps change, the shapes of countries change.  The shorelines change.  They always have done.

Philippa Bond ● 1130d

Michael,I'm talking about the minimum state pension age which is the retirement age for many people.The state is moving the state minimum state pension age I'm simply saying this should remain at the 65 limit and yes we are talking about people who do not have large private pensions."If one's healthy and enjoying ones job why not continue, particularly if one can negotiate a part time arrangement?"I have already stated: If people want to work beyond 65 and can show they are capable then I see no reason to stop them in any occupation.I would suggest health checks from 65 upwards for professional drivers yes. Public safety should come first. Is there a case for all drivers? I do not know.If data suggests that there should be additional health checks for private drivers between 65 & 70 then of course this should be considered.It should also be balanced against the data that shows increase risks for drivers below the age of 30. We obviously should not restrict drivers purely based on age - it should be risk based.

Ed Robinson ● 1130d

Ed. There is no retirement age. There is a state pension age. You can retire when you want if you can afford to (althoughthere are rules about drawing private pensions before a certain age if you've lots of money in other savings there's no lower limit), and there is nothing to stop one working past pension age, with some exceptions such as university jobs, and there are others such as the military, police forces, etc where people normally retire before the state pension age (I'm  not sure of the exact rules). If you work past the state pension age one can defer it and get slightly increased payments when one does elect to take it.If one's healthy and enjoying ones job why not continue, particularly if one can negotiate a part time arrangement?Yes, there's no standard of health at any age and people deteriorate at different rates as well. So would you suggest annual health checks for all drivers; you've highlighted a problem, do you think the one I suggested several posts ago is reasonable (perhaps repeat the checks more regularly before 70?) or do you have an alternate? 

Michael Ixer ● 1130d

"Heavy goods vehicle drivers (C1) are already required to have a medical evaluation at 70, thus it would be perfectly logical to extend this to other casses of vehicle."But what is not logical is to suggest that 70 is some magic number and at 68 you are fine without any additional tests just because of the state pension rules dictate that age.Risk obviously increases with age but when we move the retirement age beyond the 65 and nearer to 70 there are all sorts of issues that have not been considered.There is huge variation and we have to remember that figures obviously quote averages or per population but the minimum state pension impacts everyone of that age group.Rather than moving the retirement age ever upwards it would seem sensible to use alternatives such as increased deferred benefits or even tax incentives. Simply put, the state can not have it both ways so it will ignore safety concerns for the benefit of financial savings, which is wrong.If people want to work beyond 65 and can show they are capable then I see no reason to stop them in any occupation.Likewise there will be individuals within certain occupations that may not be suitable to continue and should not be forced to.I should just add it should not be an all or nothing situation. People should be able to reduce their working week for example and claim part of their state pension.

Ed Robinson ● 1130d

I get page doesn't exist from the Independent's website 

Michael Ixer ● 1130d

https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/ed-begley-oscars-hayden-subway-california-b2302484.htm

Philippa Bond ● 1130d

"Possibly not top of their priority list at that time? "Yes Michael, low priority when there are countries to illegally invade.

Ed Robinson ● 1131d

Ed. Possibly not top of their priority list at that time? At least London was left under TfL's control. Imagine competing nus companies vying for road space along PHS :-) Crazy that anyone ever thought that was a sensible option ...

Michael Ixer ● 1131d

Interesting, Richard. 

Michael Ixer ● 1131d

Like everyone else, I'd always assumed that the statement attributed to Thatcher was accurate, but apparently not. According to Full Fact, they "can’t prove whether Mrs Thatcher did or didn’t say this, but it appears that the phrase was originally coined by an acquaintance of one Loelia, the Duchess of Westminster, and then popularised by the duchess. At some point it became common to attribute the quote to Mrs Thatcher." Rather a shame, really: it's one of those stories that just ought to be true but aren't, because they feel right.https://fullfact.org/news/margaret-thatcher-bus/

Richard Carter ● 1131d

Yes Michael, the 501, 505 & 521 as you say were very popular to shuttle from/to Waterloo back in the day."A deliberate aim of her privatisation policy?"But also followed by subsequent Labour governments.

Ed Robinson ● 1131d

Heavy goods vehicle drivers (C1) are already required to have a medical evaluation at 70, thus it would be perfectly logical to extend this to other casses of vehicle.Physical and mental faculties can deteriorate very quickly in one's 90's and regular re-evalutaion should be required - to keep the rest of us safe.

Michael Winstanley ● 1131d

Interesting, Ed. I know Thatcher made some stupid statement at one time along the lines that men who used buses were failures? Not sure about the post pandemic travellers as they may all be working from home but the 521 Waterloo to the City (now to be discontinued) was full of bankers, stock brokers, accountants, consultants, IT experts, etc - interesting she thought they were all failures!Perhaps shows how out of touch she was? :-) Other than that, I've not heard it said the middle class don't use buses except perhaps outside London and other large conurbations where people can't use them because the services are so appalling. A deliberate aim of her privatisation policy?

Michael Ixer ● 1131d

"I was told recently in Florida that "white middle class" people don't use buses,"Oddly enough I have been told the same thing over the years with regard to white middle class British people and buses. Trams seems to be acceptable however. Who knows where trackless trams feature?Perhaps if you didn't have to board buses at the front they could market them as trackless trams? Just a thought!

Ed Robinson ● 1131d

Ed. Yes, I wouldn't like to make comparisons with the US anyway. In the late '80a my wife and I were having a conversation with one of my colleagues in California and noted the complete lack of transport in the LA area. One question my wife asked was how elderly people got about when they were too infirm to drive; the response was "well, they just keep driving anyway". There was no other way for them to get arouund - not all Americans are rich enough to take taxis everywhere.There are buses but I was told recently in Florida that "white middle class" people don't use buses, which is why they have trolley cars as well as buses in the Miami and Coral Tables area! (Although I was told that by someone in that category who changed to using buses to commute for environmental reasons.) Interestingly, I did see a lot of cars with blue Uber lights in their windscreens …

Michael Ixer ● 1131d

David the response was to you question "Why not use taxis?"If a person is deemed fit to drive then why should he get a taxi? If he is not fit to drive then he shouldn't be driving.It is difficult to apply averages with these situation because the average person is already dead, But if you are proposing some sort of age restriction on driving then looking at the UK government statistics that you linked to (which are not sufficiently granular) it would seem sensible to only allow people to drive from the age of 24.As mentioned previously in this thread it is illogical to have a situation where people are fit to operate HGV's, buses, taxis & cars until the age of 67-68 then expect drivers to be automatically tested at 70.As for California's rules, that is really up to the state of California as I believe the USA gained independence quite some time ago and the driving age is not set by the federal government.

Ed Robinson ● 1131d

"Perhaps he likes driving or just being independent.Perhaps doing both has enabled him to get to the age of 97."Perhaps or perhaps not. Perhaps porpoises, passing strangers, rescue authorities or even Mary Poppins' magic?"Dick Van Dyke cheats death again after escaping sports car fireMary Poppins star who was saved from drowning by porpoises has another lucky escape after his car catches fire on a freeway.""The Hollywood Reporter says the actor may not actually have been aware his car was on fire prior to the rescue."https://www.theguardian.com/film/2013/aug/20/dick-van-dyke-cheats-death-sports-car-fire"In November 2010 Van Dyke made the headlines after a pod of porpoises pushed him to shore when he fell asleep on his surfboard and woke out of sight of land." His autobiography is called "My Lucky Life".

David Ainsworth ● 1131d

I read the Dick van Dyke story yesterday.  97 is the same age Prince Phillip was when he had a car crash. Some people will never face up to the fact they have become too old to drive and that their reactions aren’t quick enough.  If they aren’t fit enough to drive, then someone else needs to tell them.  If their nearest and dearest can’t/won’t do it, then the state has to step in with compulsory driving test retakes and regular eyesight checks

Martine Guy ● 1131d

"Retake!? Why not use taxis?"Perhaps he likes driving or just being independent.Perhaps doing both has enabled him to get to the age of 97.

Ed Robinson ● 1131d

BBC:-"Hollywood legend Dick Van Dyke reportedly lost control of his car and crashed into a gate on Wednesday morning, TMZ first reported.The 97-year-old is said to have lost control of the wheel of his Lexus over wet streets in Malibu, California, recently drenched by rain.Bruised and bloodied, the Mary Poppins star appears to have only suffered "minor injuries", police said.He was treated at the scene by medics and then brought home by a friend.Police officers have said drugs and alcohol are not suspected to be involved in the accident.However, it has been reported that police submitted documents to the Department of Motor Vehicles for him to retake his driving test, due to his near-centenarian status."Retake!? Why not use taxis?

David Ainsworth ● 1131d

I can't see the driving test organisation coping with retesting everyone over 70, would they need to do it every three years? However, I suppose each time one needs to renew a licence, whether after three or ten years it could be made compulsory to:> Have an optician certify one's vision,> A doctor certify one's health is adequate to drive,> Retake the theory test to ensure one has kept up-to-date with the latest driving laws, Highway code revisions, new road signs, etc,> Perhaps have an hour driving with an instructor to point out any bad habits one has picked up.

Michael Ixer ● 1132d

If you have a photocard driving licence you have to renew it every 10 years anyway.  It is not the same with the old paper licence.

Philippa Bond ● 1132d

It's not directly aged-related, but a team from Swansea University carried out a study of attitudes to risk in (a) road traffic situations and (b) in other areas., and found very differing responses.For example, 75% of their sample agreed with the statement: “People shouldn’t smoke in highly populated areas where other people have to breathe in the cigarette fumes.” But when just two words were changed – “people shouldn’t drive in highly populated areas where other people have to breathe in the car fumes” – only 17% agreed. Similarly, while only 37% of people thought the police needed to take action if someone left their “belongings” in the street and they were stolen, with the word changed to “car” it rose to 87%.What this highlights is that many people are happily prepared to accept road traffic danger much more readily than they would other dangers: all part of our love affair with the car, it seems, and which makes it difficult to tackle the issue. I suppose it's one reason why so many in the motoring lobby protest about speed restrictions, for example, despite the need to preserve life and limb.The original paper is at https://psyarxiv.com/egnmj

Richard Carter ● 1133d

I didn’t know that the pre-inquest into the tragic death of baby Louis Thorold was taking place today, when I posted above on this thread.  His mother had struggled to get pregnant for 5 years through IVF and was badly injured herself.  This was the couple’s only child.  The 74 year old driver was found not guilty through reasons of insanity — she had undiagnosed Alzheimer’s.   I think we should all be worried that other drivers like this could be driving on our roads.

Martine Guy ● 1133d

"Of course,  there's the issue of local shops that if you don't use them you'll likely lose them ... "I was reminded yesterday of one of the things that contribute to this. I went to Dyas for a particular length and type of extension lead. They had as good a variety on display as you could hope for, but not the particular one which I wanted. (Especially when extension leads now no longer seem to permit replacing the lead with a longer one).It is impossible for a finite shop to compete with the infinite variety and unlimited virtual space of the internet.

David Ainsworth ● 1133d

Yes Andy I renewed mine, but that wasn't doing an actual driving test. It was fr an up to date Licence.

Barbara Stevens ● 1133d

Government decisions will obviously depend upon the economy and not life expectancy as the UK, unlike other countries, has no sovereign fund and must pay pensions out of current taxation or borrowing.Increasing the retirement age also means protecting employees from discrimination on such grounds as age.Perhaps an alternative to the French strategy of riot and burn would be workers of an higher age applying on mass for jobs and then proving statistically that they were discriminated against.

Ed Robinson ● 1133d

Yes, it's a complex algorithm. My guess would be that, for example, Ocado deliveries to consumers should be more efficient as they're from warehouses so the delivery routes ought to be more efficient than numerous trips by individuals to a supermarket, and the warehouse to supermarket deliveries are also reduced. Similarly, one could say that clothes delivered by the Post Office are just a marginal increase to existing services and infrastructure. I suspect deliveries to Amazon and other lockers and pickup points are relatively efficient. Once one looks at a plethora of other deliveries to the door I'd be less convinced, particularly if one isn't in to receive it. I must admit I prefer to buy some clothes and shoes where I can try them on, unless they're repeat orders of something I already know fits - like trainers from Vegetarian Shoes :-)Of course,  there's the issue of local shops that if you don't use them you'll likely lose them ...

Michael Ixer ● 1133d

Oops, missed the second reference https://www.lshtm.ac.uk/newsevents/news/2023/uk-drops-new-global-ranking-life-expectancy

Michael Ixer ● 1133d

It appears the rise of the state pension age (there is no "retirement" age in the UK, as ionce had to point out to someone working in HR) to 68 may be slowed, but not the rise to 67 in 2028. https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/mar/21/ministers-reportedly-scrap-plan-to-bring-forward-rise-in-uk-state-pension-age It seems the UK's life expectancy isn't increasing as fast as that in other G7 countries, with the exception of the US. I suppose a problem is that even if one lives longer it may not defer the onset of conditions such as degenerating eyesight, dementia, cancers, mobility issues, etc. Obviously,  some of these can be premeditated (for example, cataract removal and joint replacements) but other conditions will inhibit people from working.

Michael Ixer ● 1133d

"one would think that internet sales ought to be able to optimise and reduce the distances driving to fulfill orders?"But internet sales have resulted in the closure of large numbers of local shops, so there will be many more small deliveries to individual homes instead of large bulk deliveries to these local shops. To be honest, I do find it difficult to work out whether it does increase or decrease efficiency.There is also the apparent inefficiency of buying clothes from the internet and then the volume of returns. (Speaking as an annoyed post office queuer)

David Ainsworth ● 1133d

As the government moves the state age of retirement up, you will get situations where the government says it's OK for someone to use heavy machinery, drive buses or a HGV vehicle, then insist shortly afterwards that they can not even drive a car without additional checks.

Ed Robinson ● 1133d

David, one would think that internet sales ought to be able to optimise and reduce the distances driving to fulfill orders? Supermarkets and superstores, particularly those located in out of town shopping centres, have made cars almost a necessity in certain parts of the country. 

Michael Ixer ● 1133d

Part of the problem is that it seems to be believed that driving a ton of metal and plastics on the public road is a right, whereas it is really a privilege.Another part of the problem is that the way society is organised depends on there being such a right. Shops, hospitals, police stations, internet sales, all seem to be more and more dependent on more and more vehicle use.

David Ainsworth ● 1133d

I think all drivers over the age of 70 need to retake a driving test.  Read the utterly heartbreaking case of 5 month old Louis Thorold.  This little baby died after his pram was hit by a vehicle in a crash caused by a female driver aged 75.  I find it unbearable to read the details of the case, and the pain suffered by his parents.

Martine Guy ● 1133d

Thanks, David. Saved me looking for it!

Michael Ixer ● 1133d

It's simple to renew online and doesn't cost anything, but just make sure you use the official gov.uk site. It seems a sensible self certification process for health checks. Perhaps it should be stricter with certification from one's doctor and optician that one's fit to drive?

Michael Ixer ● 1133d

Probably worth a look:-https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casualties-great-britain-older-and-younger-driver-factsheets-2021/reported-road-casualties-in-great-britain-older-driver-factsheet-2021

David Ainsworth ● 1133d

Barbara the over 70s driving licence renewal haz been in place for a long time and is, in my view, very much needed. ( I'm nearly there and my wife is already there) .There are many senior drivers who should not be on the road. One of my neighbours squeezes into parking spaces like a dodge car only stopping when  she touches bumpers. Others find it bothersome having to read/ follow road signs whilst driving so ignore them completely.

Andy Pike ● 1133d

The good news or bad is that any extra checks are likely to remain above the state retirement age.

Ed Robinson ● 1133d