Forum Topic

The Digital Divide

I know this isn't strictly a Putney only issue but I know many locally seem to be concerned by it. Looks like if ULEZ and LTNs don't make it impossible to drive they'll soon be no parking without a smartphone https://www.mirror.co.uk/money/pay-display-parking-machines-scrapped-29503437 Still, although many food and drink establishments in London are now cashless, the Swiss aren't altogether in favour of it; perhaps they are suspected mattress was safer than Credit Swiss? https://techhq.com/2023/03/swiss-vote-against-becoming-a-cashless-society-will-other-countries-follow/ And BT's rollout of VoIP continues ... https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2022/12/isp-bt-to-restart-troubled-uk-digital-voice-rollout-in-spring-2023.html
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Michael Ixer ● 817d41 Comments

https://news.sky.com/story/nearly-every-railway-ticket-office-in-england-set-to-close-under-new-plans-12915187

Philippa Bond ● 712d

This is quite a good analysis of issues calling emergency services with mobile phones, VoIP (Digital Voice), etc but I'm not convinced satellites are a solution at present; perhaps in a few years?https://www.theregister.com/2023/07/03/the_numbers_up_for_999/

Michael Ixer ● 712d

Here's the page for the APPG:https://www.connectpa.co.uk/digital-skills-appgI notice a lot of the parliamentarians are listed twice so there aren't as many as it looks!

Philippa Bond ● 715d

There is an APPG dealing with the Digital Divide:https://atd-uk.org/2022/11/22/the-digital-divide-through-the-eyes-of-lived-experience-amanda-button-at-the-appg-on-poverty/

Philippa Bond ● 715d

Philippa, I would recommend using a credit card for all payments and only use a debit card for withdrawing cash, ideally at an ATM inside a bank - and make sure you use different PINs for them!  This is a recommendation I've made ever since I read the details about the Target US chain store payments system data breach in 2013 when customers' card details were stolen and misused for unauthorised payments. Customers using credit cards disputed the charges and they were cancelled before payments were due. Others who paid with debit cards had bank accounts cleared out and had to wait for banks to reinstate their money. As far as I know all money was reinstated eventually as it was a weakness in Target's systems however it wasn't immediate.

Michael Ixer ● 720d

We've always used a credit card with a small limit online and for machines.  We'd prefer to do that than use a debit card which hands over direct access to a bank account but we have one friend who having had a bad experience with a former partner overspending on a credit card and having to pay off a huge amount - doesn't have one and won't use one.  It used to be easy to get a credit card but I'm sure it is more difficult now both post pandemic and now we are older.Yes, there not being a single standard app across the industry for the parking machines is a pain. It is hard enough using the machines without having to download apps. As is (as someone on TV pointed out) the difficulty when an app refuses to acknowledge the existence of the location code for a particular car park!  There is this feeling that not enough technology and other things are whistle tested before being put into public use!Who knows about foreign keyboards as you mention.

Philippa Bond ● 720d

Yes, it makes those 5G masts necessary! My gripe is that, like with rail companies, there's no single, standard app across the industry. I suppose it beats the scammers trying to skim your creditcard? Seriously, it has to be a concern for those who do not have a smartphone, or have difficulty using one. I can see it might also pose issues for foreign visitors if the apps aren't properly tested using non UK keyboards, etc?(One also wonders how well security tested these apps are?)

Michael Ixer ● 721d

Interesting to see last week some discussion on TV on the problems of parking machines going cashless causing problems for those without mobiles (or perhaps more likely the inability to download apps).This article is also interesting onbthe Digital Divide:https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/uk-state-income-support-faulty-assumptions-by-robert-skidelsky-2021-04#:~:text=The%20initial%20growth%20stemmed%20largely,in%20unemployment%20and%20precarious%20work.

Philippa Bond ● 721d

Ha Ha I thought that would give someone licence to come up with their own choice of words instead of the three words used to identify their addresses by some couriers!Here is a problem of some people being unable to access their money and the snowballing problems it causes for them and others.https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/technology/man-with-down-s-syndrome-20k-in-debt-after-bank-blocked-account-due-to-mental-capacity/ar-AA1c9Mpw?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=968fa2fd5fc14bf7b5b890a1e791ac16&ei=20

Philippa Bond ● 740d

"Sadly not often" is more likely.And "Dazed and confused" would work.

David Ainsworth ● 741d

'In the pub'?

Sean Hodges ● 741d

I can think of 3 words which locate me quite precisely.

David Ainsworth ● 742d

what3wordshttps://what3words.com/pretty.needed.chill

Michael Ixer ● 742d

Just re-read (again)the Digital Voice info including the comments. So they are supposed to be making sure that users have access to a mobile...Talks about sending a van around areas that they are updating/changing.  The trouble with that is people tend to be busy on the little amount of time that they aren't working.  Something else to be booked in.Does anybody remember what that easy location code is?Something to do with just remembering three words.  I suppose we should do that. 

Philippa Bond ● 742d

Bump for Elizabeth.

Philippa Bond ● 745d

It's also interesting that the Post Office hubs facilitating banking for those disadvantaged by bank closures are being taken advantage of by money laundering criminals! One might think if one had £20,000 in cash to deposit it wouldn't be too difficult to get to a bank? It might be difficult for a business that could take a substantial amount of cashin a day (hence the preference for cashless transactions) but how often do individuals have that amount of cash to pay in?https://www.redflagalert.com/articles/compliance/fca-calls-time-on-money-laundering-at-the-post-office

Michael Ixer ● 774d

Interesting in that a lot of banking hubs are run by the Post Office, which is still essentially a government owned company ... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65457428

Michael Ixer ● 775d

I stopped using emoji as people complained they presented as a square box with a cross in it! Must be the forum software as the emoji work on Facebook, Outlook, WhatsApp, etc.

Michael Ixer ● 776d

Let's hope we don't haven't a coronal mass ejection that wipes out satellites, power networks and optical amplifiers :-( ☹️

Michael Ixer ● 776d

Rotate 90 degrees and you get this

Matt Palmer ● 776d

:-) is text code for a "smiley". Rotate it 90° clockwise and you have two eyes, a nose and a smile. As opposed to :-( for an unhappy person 

Michael Ixer ● 776d

I heard someone leaving Khartoum saying that he couldn't pay for anything electronically because the bank systems weren't working. So no pay going into accounts either.  Just like the problems we see when Sainsbury's tills go down you depend on just a card to pay for food or for petrol.  Only a far worse scenario of course.

Philippa Bond ● 776d

Hallo, everyonePlease, what does :-) mean?Thanks

Carole Tanner ● 776d

I think when everything is working well - fibre broadband, cellnet masts and mains power supply - then on-line delivery is fine. However, it's interesting that some awaiting evacuation in Sudan have been frustrated by the delivery of information over the Internet - or the need to provide information via that medium - as it may have failed or only be available intermittently. In those situations perhaps one can't beat shortwave radios with a good supply of batteries, or even ones that can be wound up? The other disadvantage that's apparent in China and Russia is that on-line access is easy for states to control. A good high powered medium wave (or long wave) transmitter can circumvent those for delivering radio news :-) Or satellite, but the dish might be rather obvious!

Michael Ixer ● 776d

Oh, I should think so!!Anything free these days is viewed very badly!!!We love Freeview.  We used to have it upstairs but no longer, at least not in its original way.Everything is going online - rightly or wrongly....

Ivonne Holliday ● 776d

Is the HoC PAC steering the BBC away from FFreeview broadcasting to only Internet on-line delivery of programmes?https://rxtvinfo.com/2023/bbc-told-to-develop-freeview-replacement-plan/

Michael Ixer ● 776d

https://uk.yahoo.com/finance/news/supermarkets-accused-locking-elderly-083304329.html

Philippa Bond ● 779d

Good point, Maxine :-) Perhaps they'd rather people met in Youngs pubs where the drinks cost more so their commission is greater!

Michael Ixer ● 781d

Maybe PayPal are protesting that you use Wetherspoon's LOL

Maxine Campbell ● 781d

Looks like the digital divide could extend to the National Trust ...https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12001201/Two-MILLION-face-parking-meter-deserts-councils-scrap-traditional-pay-display-meters.html

Michael Ixer ● 783d

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/our-impact/politics-and-government/all-party-parliamentary-group/

Philippa Bond ● 803d

Ivonne, I'm very sorry to hear that. It is fraud, not other word for it, in the same way that so called 'bad actors', 'hackers' (excluding ethical hackers paid to find vulnerabilities!), etc are just criminals - a word I prefer using in reports, etc about cyber crime. I know some people in the risk industry who have been victims of fraud, so no one is immune.

Michael Ixer ● 812d

Sorry to hear that.  Even though we know there are lots of scam calls it can still be worrying to get them. You also have to be terribly careful IN banks.  They make you use cards to verify and screens with very small numbers on.  It is a great improvement that they now recognise accounts by name as well as numbers so at least you know it is you.  But even if they admit something is their fault in writing it doesn't mean that it can be put right without the added stress of going taking it to the Ombudsman.

Philippa Bond ● 813d

Hello Michael,As with all statistics, they can be interpreted differently!Or they can be deceptive.There are a myriad of reasons why people distrust/mistrust computers, whether they have internet in their homes or not.The thought of scams, well why not call it fraud, leaves them cold.I was stung rather badly by a scam not long ago (and never forgave myself, nor will I ever forgive myself, for it), I will not - or should I say never will - deal with investments or loans on either phone or online banking.  I want to speak to someone face to face!The distrust/mistrust of the internet and mobile phones lately is not reduced to technophobics only.  Because whichever total security programs you may have, the rotters will get through.For many, distrusting/mistrusting all technology is the best way forward.

Ivonne Holliday ● 813d

It is useful to have other people who understand what is going on with all of this because there are people who are suddenly going to find that they can't do things they usually do including vote if they haven't checked out exactly what they will need as ID and remember to take it with them when they go.Apart from help from other people on here there is also Mark Phillips who offers help with IT.

Philippa Bond ● 813d

In the analysis on page 8 of that Ofcom report it shows that of those without home internet access 26% are of age 75+, 13% are not working and 14% are in the DE socio-economic group (those figures are not mutually exclusive). That further emphasises the digital divide looking at age, social, economic, etc categories. I suspect things might be more complex than that; one might have a household with no broadband service with most there not using the internet but an individual with a smartphone and 4/5G access?Even if people have internet access are they necessary capable of taking advantage of all its benefits and are they at risk of the pitfalls from scams?

Michael Ixer ● 815d

"6% of households did not have access to the internet at home in December 2021."According to OFCOM last years so the number of people will be higher. I wonder if that figure will actually go up rather than down in the short term due to economic reasons.The previous Labour opposition's plan for free broadband for all was a good idea but poorly thought out. Concentrating too much on the means rather than the purpose. Not to mention ignoring communal options.Free public WiFi, with restrictions on bandwidth would actually be relatively cheap and would not necessarily require comms hardware in every home.With the current government and opposition I would just settle for the free part as both are doubling down on restricting various rights.https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0022/234364/digital-exclusion-review-2022.pdf

Ed Robinson ● 815d

It's a huge problem for those who don't have smart phones, whether it be because of age, financial hardship or simply those who don't want to own one. For some it isn't a choice. It's not affordable for some, but no one seems to care about that. Last I heard it was something like 18% of the population don't have access to computers or smart phones.

Victoria Diamond ● 815d

SeanAlthough you won't get fined if you stray into a zone you didn't intend to - do you get a message to say you have done so?  Otherwise you may not be able to change your route to stop the charges.It is worth trying to see if there is info on neighbouring Council's websites about restrictions.  You do need to stay really alert and look out for changes in road signage limiting unpermited through traffic.

Philippa Bond ● 816d

I largely agree, Sean; life is full of changes. I prefer cashless payments and I've got used to paperless tickets for shows and travel - although it's ridiculous that every rail company has it's own app, perhaps we'll soon just have a Great British Railways app, and it's amusing when theatres still tell one to turn off one's phone before entering the auditorium and then want to check your ticket on your phone before going in ... However, should people be expected to have a smartphone just to carry out day-to-day activities? I know some who still have phones that can only make phone calls (ok, and send SMSs), and at least one person who refuses to carry a phone. I was also thinking of the other forum thread about objections to self service checkouts. My main objection is poorly designed and inadequately tested apps. PayPal has now stopped telling me that my orders through the Wetherspoon's app have failed even though the drinks arrive and I do get charged for them (!) but it was doing that for at least a couple of years!

Michael Ixer ● 817d

I registered my car for auto payment of ULEZ. It's a weight off my mind knowing that if I stray inside the zone unwittingly I won't end up with a penalty. 
Many of the cashless options like oyster, tap to pay etc are strange at first but feel ever more sensible and convenient over time. 
Change can be unsettling but it's rarely without benefits 

Sean Hodges ● 817d