Forum Topic

Front Page - Roehampton Dog Story

I am pleased to see a hefty fine was issued to a Roehampton resident because their dog was barking and causing “fear and anxiety” to other residents.  Action was taken under the Dog Bye Laws. Why don’t the Dog Bye Laws apply to all Council estates?  You have people moving into flats with American XL Bully dogs and other scary dogs, and it is causing fear and anxiety to long standing residents.  Time for the Council to update the Bye Laws and make them effective on all local authority estates.

Martine Guy ● 11d44 Comments

I did a small-scale, amateur "statistical" survey of likely external mortal threats to one David Ainsworth and half-surprised myself with the results.Most threatening to my mortality in descending order:-Of course - Motor vehicles (I know, not quite the same thing really)Then knives.Boots or fists.Strangling.Blunt instrument.Shooting.Burning.Poisoning.Dogs (very low average though rising lately).In some ways the most frightening are the number of killings under the headings of methods:-Unknown, or, Other.What can they be? Shudders.https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/homicideinenglandandwales/march2022#:~:text=Compared%20with%20most%20other%20crimes,health%20restrictions%20(Figure%201).

David Ainsworth ● 8d

I think you are quite right Andy.Penalties for illegal breeding need to be addressed.Perhaps targeting buying from an illegal breeder needs to be addressed.We should not be penalising financially pet owners and need to appreciate the benefits a lot of people get from pets.Personally I do not really understand the whole concept of pets or football for that matter! But then I do not have to. All I need to understand is that having pets enrichest a lot of people's lives. If that is the case then we should not be adding financial barriers on top of the existing ones.However dogs are bred for certain characteristics and we need a conversation around what those characteristics should be.There may be the case for phasing out the breeding of certain breeds that that may pose a disproportionate threat to humans or have significant health issues for the dog.

Ed Robinson ● 9d

The biggest issue is the illegal breeders and the illegal breeding farms. They tend to separate the pups from mum too early so thd pup does not learn at a very early age.the first 3 months are when a pup learns most from mum.

Andy Pike ● 9d

You currently need a license for breeding dogs under some circumstances. Perhaps the license should cover more breeders and more breeds should be prohibited? There is no point introducing more taxes which are retrospective and highly inefficient for every owner."breed 3 or more litters in any 12 month period and sell any of the puppies"https://www.gov.uk/guidance/dog-breeding-licence-england

Ed Robinson ● 9d

We used to call them mongrel before folk started  with the designer breeds some of which are now recognised by the control bodies as 'breeds'. Yes you are right about chipping but again that doesnt stop a dog attack, the original posters concern. No matter what you do will not stop attacks. Chips, licences etc. folk just want to ban breeds they are scared of, have some sympathy with that but we cant insist everyone has a labrador.

Andy Pike ● 9d

I'm not proposing this but I believe all dogs must be microchipped now? (And cats.) When the dog is microchipped it's owner and details are registered (they are so a lost dog can be returned to the owner). In a similar way to TV licence fees and motor taxes a computer just needs to check a licence is registered for each chip and issue a renewal licence when the current one is due to expire? Ok, there may be many reasons not to have dog licences! Also, aren't dogs of multiple breeds called mongrels? 

Michael Ixer ● 9d

Good luck with that.If they brought in a licence it would have to cost a significant sum ( not the previous 37.5p)  to administer the system. Signal claims of charging the people who need a dog most ie the pensioners who want company or those stuck on estates who want a sense of protection.Then with stating what breed how do you cater for the ever growing list of cross breeds  cross a cockapoo with another cross breed to come up with a completely new breed.Licensing would be simply unworkable. When do you check the licence position ? Whilst out walking or after an attack? Dies it apply to everyone or just those who live on estates? Etc etc

Andy Pike ● 9d

I'd have thought in this case they should have taken the dog away rather than keep pinning fines on the owner.  Maybe time for the the return of dog licences, with a list of the breeds you can have, like the vehicles you're allowed to drive on a driving licence. Maybe passing some equivalent to a driving test as well?

Peter Evans ● 9d

I think the last few postings prove the dilemma anyone would have trying to ban any particular breed of dog from an estate.Everyone would have a view on which breed poses a danger when in fact most breeds could be dangerous if nit properly trained or restrained. Similarly misf breeds can be absolute darlings if trained and restrained properly.I have sat at meetings where arguments between tenants have raged based on the perception of a dangerous breed rather than an individual dog.

Andy Pike ● 10d

Weight of a Jack Russell 13-17 pounds, weight of American XL Bully 100 pounds. When the XL Bully has used its weight to get you on the ground, then it’s easy for it to go for the face and neck.  Jack Russell bites you and I expect it takes out a chunk, XL Bully bites you and I expect there is very little left of the face and neck.

Martine Guy ● 10d

well David, the list you produced was laughable at its best.It was perhaps an old list.From memory, I do not think pit bull terriers were there.May I remind you that many moons ago the bulldog was considered dangerous?

Ivonne Holliday ● 10d

"Perhaps the duplication reveals a side of not understanding how to train dogs?"Well that's a heck of a stretch even for the Forum. Still I must admit that I could not even train a goldfish. They'd just drown. Or throw themselves desperately out of the bowl.

David Ainsworth ● 10d

Perhaps the duplication reveals a side of not understanding how to train dogs?

Ivonne Holliday ● 10d

I repeat myself, it is the owner, not the dog.From the link you posted:"These tiny balls of energy were originally bred for ratting so it's not surprise that a lack of exercise and training can lead to unwanted aggression piling up."Lack of exercise and training are the key words!!!

Ivonne Holliday ● 10d

Sorry for duplication. Website's fault - not mine.

David Ainsworth ● 10d

However, I would love to own another Jack Russell.... The 5 Most Dangerous Dog Breeds in the UKhttps://www.starlimited.co.uk/blog/the-5-most-dangerous-dog-breeds-in-the-uk/

David Ainsworth ● 10d

However, I would love to own another Jack Russell.... The 5 Most Dangerous Dog Breeds in the UKhttps://www.starlimited.co.uk/blog/the-5-most-dangerous-dog-breeds-in-the-uk/

David Ainsworth ● 10d

Yes they are sweet little dogs, Ivonne.  And, It is other dog owners as well, that are calling for changes to the dog laws along with animal charities and the postal workers Union.

Martine Guy ● 10d

I do not agree with the ownership of a weapon dog by any stretch of the imagination.  It was a fashion statement and it has become a status symbol - beyond ridiculous!  However, I would love to own another Jack Russell....

Ivonne Holliday ● 10d

Ivonne, I agree with you about it not being all dogs.  But I thought we were talking about a certain type of  dog, the weapon dog.  Why does the right to own such a dog, eg an American bully dog, override the right of people to the peaceful enjoyment of their home. As Ed says, it’s about restraining the dog and I know I couldn’t fight off a 9-10 stone powerful killing machine which has locked its jaw on my face. I am interested to see on another Forum and Mail Online comments that people seem to have had enough of out of control dog ownership. I hope dog ownership has now reached a peak.

Martine Guy ● 10d

"Martine, he probably should have, but obviously just a warning."Strange that. I always thought that the Tories were in favour of strong punishment.

David Ainsworth ● 10d

Hallo, YvonneWell played!! Dogs are the result of good owners and therefor should be well behaved.  BUT  not all dogs are bomb-proof, and barking etc is trying to get attention - food, attention , care - whatever.  Owner should be taught how to read dog body language and interact with their dogs.  Start thinking about the inter-action between dogs and their owners!!!!

Carole Tanner ● 10d

Martine, he probably should have, but obviously just a warning.

Barbara Stevens ● 10d

Quite right it is the owner and not the dog.However most adults are unable to restrain these dogs if they do attack unlike other breeds.It is a similar argument to the US gun ownership.

Ed Robinson ● 10d

Martine,Not all dogs aggressive.  There are breeds that are more aggressive than others.  You cannot compare a pit bull with a poodle, a labrador, a retriever, a vizla, a whippet, a dalmatian and many others.Look at guide dogs for example.  I grant you that they are trained extremely well but, by nature, they are truly gentle!

Ivonne Holliday ● 10d

Ivonne, what about the dogs that attack their owners which seems to be case in a lot of attacks.  In the USA there has been a recent case of a family pit bull mauling its owner, a mother, and killing her 2 very young children. Barbara, I thought the P.M. should have been issued with a fine.

Martine Guy ● 10d

I still maintain that it is not the dog, but the owner particularly if they do not know how to train a dog.A friend of ours had a German Shepherd years ago and it behaved brilliantly.  It went with him wherever he went and would curl up under his seat and wait patiently till our friend left.  He did not even bark.We got our Jack Russell from Battersea Dogs Home quite a few years ago.  Behind us was a young couple looking for a Rottweiler.  When they were asked where they lived, their reply was in a tower block.  Battersea refused to give them a dog.  Their language and behaviour confirmed that they were really unsuitable owners of such a dog.  Bravo Battersea!!

Ivonne Holliday ● 10d

Sunak got in trouble for letting his dog off the lead in Hyde Park.

Barbara Stevens ● 10d

Sadly, Andy, you are right.   Maybe the animal charities and postal workers union might get some changes to the current dog laws.  

Martine Guy ● 10d

Parks police / dog wardens will only be able to act on reports of a nuisance. They do not have resources for permanent patrols on every estate. I think there are only 2 dog wardens in wandsworth and parks police are just that parks police not housing estate police.

Andy Pike ● 11d

The Council ciukd only act if it was an actual nuisance not a perceived one. Lije you I'm not keen but on or off council estates theres little you can do.

Andy Pike ● 11d

Well Andy, I don’t take my chances near these type of dogs and keep well away from them.  There was another death about a week ago of a British women in Spain.  She was looking after a pit bull and it turned on her. The number of attacks is increasing and this must be costing the NHS.  I don’t think anyone should be keeping powerful bull breeds in flats on Council estates.  The other residents must surely have a right to live without the worry of being in close proximity to a weapon dog.

Martine Guy ● 11d

A bye law does not prohibit dog ownership and nor does it stop an attack. There are dogs that people are ' scared ' of by reputation but they are not dangerous dogs in the eyes of thd law. I personally am not a fan of pit bulls but am told they are great loving dogs properly looked after. It's the irresponsible owners that are the problem.I dont think any housing authority can refuse to house someone based on the type of dog. Only a blanket ban would stop it and then the littke old lady and her poodle would be banned too. It's a very difficult issue with much based on pre conceived ideas of dangerous dogs.

Andy Pike ● 11d

"how else would anyone know there was an issue."Wandsworth Parks Police?OrWell, I know that we haven't got the money, but ... "The New York City Police Department Housing Bureau is responsible for providing the security and delivery of police services to about 420,000 people living in New York City's public housing projects." (Wikipedia)

David Ainsworth ● 11d

"I’d be very suspicious of anyone who needs such a ‘powerful Status dog‘."I think that I prefer Ms Guy's term "weapon dogs". I hadn't heard it before.

David Ainsworth ● 11d

Again, I agree Jane.  I just looked online because I am not knowledgeable on the Bully breeds, but the largest, the American Bully XL weighs 9 to 10 stone.  An adult would struggle to fight one off, a child would stand no chance.

Martine Guy ● 11d

I’d be very suspicious of anyone who needs such a ‘powerful Status dog‘. These dog attacks have become horrifyingly frequent and not only on housing estates.

Jane Carter ● 11d

I agree, Jane. What gets me is that you can have a group of residents living on a council estate where dogs have never been a problem, someone moves in with a powerful Status dog and people are scared and anxious, not just within the block but across the wider estate.  Why are rights to own a dog such as this, more important than the rights of the other residents to the peaceful enjoyment of their own homes?

Martine Guy ● 11d

A microchip is not going to stop a dog attacking.Yes and sadly nor is a fine. I’d like to see these agressive breeds of dogs banned. Some of the dog attacks have been horrifying, especially on children.

Jane Carter ● 11d

I think it’s good about the dog chipping scheme, however a microchip is not going to stop a dog attacking. Last week on the news, there was a report on the huge increase in dog ownership and the increase in dog attacks.  One woman said it only takes 3 seconds for a dog to do damage to a person. In the news report was a piece on a postwoman who had her finger bitten off by a dog when she put mail through a letterbox.  I don’t think the postal Union is very happy at the moment about dog attacks and there was an article in The Times about postal deliveries being stopped in a neighbourhood because of a dog attack on a postman.  (Wish I’d keep the article). I cannot understand why some Wandsworth Estates are subject to the Bye Laws and others aren’t.  The types of dogs being owned have changed since the 1990s when the Bye Laws were introduced and there is the trend for ownership of weapon dogs.

Martine Guy ● 11d

I take the point Clarence lane has next to no amenity areas and so not included but I think thsts a mistake as dogs can be left to roam on the paved or play areas.You will only ever get action based on complaints, how else would anyone know there was an issue.

Andy Pike ● 11d

Andy, I knew the estate concerned was not covered by the Dog Bye-Laws and wrote to the Dog Wardens to ask why. This is part of the reply: ”The Dog Bye Laws — Housing Land is a piece of legislation that is unique to Wandsworth Council.  Drawing up the Bye Laws began in around 1995, and after ratification was introduced in 1998. I believe that the rationale behind NOT including certain small estates and infill blocks in this Bye Law ……… was that they have small amenity grass areas that were deemed not appropriate and thus not attractive, to exercise dogs on, there were no dogs residing in these blocks or estates and there were no previous dog issues recorded …. ….” The dog is known to the dog wardens because of complaints by residents.  I do not live on this estate and visit my friend there and am very nervous about entering or leaving the estate by the nearest entrance to where the dog lives.  I have also stopped walking across the estate in case I encounter it.  My friend has the same fears.

Martine Guy ● 11d

It is actually the law that dogs are chipped now.  So that should be something that is always followed up on.

Philippa Bond ● 11d

Martine I think the dog bye laws do apply to all estates. As can be seen in the front page case it took years to get the evidence for the fine after all sorts of other interventions.Dogs are allowed in council flats with owners expected to get them chipped.If a dog is behaving badly and causing a nuisance report it to your estate manager and start the process.

Andy Pike ● 11d