Forum Topic

Begum Loses Appeal

Good! Shamima Begum will not be allowed to return to the UK, the Special Immigration Appeals Commission has ruled. The court decided to dismiss the 23-year-old's appeal on all grounds. The judgment means she will not able to win back her British passport and it leaves her very much in limbo. Rejecting the IS bride's appeal essentially dismisses the argument put forward by her lawyers that she was a victim of child trafficking, Sky News correspondent Ashna Hurynag said.

Sue Hammond ● 429d112 Comments

Yes, think I indicated that early on in this thread. :-)

Michael Ixer ● 417d

In fact the full judgement went to some lengths to express sympathy for Ms Begum's situation and her experiences and questioned how she'd been allowed to make her journey in the first place, but had to conclude that, on the point of law in question, the Home Secretary was at liberty to make the decision he did at the time, however politically inspired it might have been.

Peter Evans ● 417d

Long pointless discussion which at the outset seems oblivious to the fact that this court case was an appeal, not concerning Begum's guilt or ultimate right to return to the UK (which will happen soon enough if she doesn't die first) but concerning whether the then Home Secretary had the power to strip her of citizenship. It seems the court thought that he did. Not that it was the right thing to do. That wasn't up for debate this time.

Michael Winstanley ● 418d

I didn't waste much time, no. He is a cockwomble and so are you.If you want a bit more thought, it is this. No-one followed Greta Thurnberg when she was 15 because they believed she was blessed with superior judgement. But what she had decided happened to coincide with what they also had decided. In her own choices, she could have been wrong, as anyone could at 15. No-one said she was knowledgeable - only that she was right.The same is true of Begum. She made a decision at 15. In her case it was a bad one - not uncommon for people who have been groomed.Thus Lambert's dig is devoid of intellectual content and typical of the trash which pervades this site and takes in people of limited intellect who think they are having a serious argument about something.

Michael Winstanley ● 418d

"Where is Enoch?"He's gone"To a land where falls no rain nor hail nor driven snow —Here, there, or anywhere"

David Ainsworth ● 418d

Where is Enoch.

Barbara Stevens ● 418d

"Many millions of our people who have but a tenuous connection with somewhere else are potentially exposed to being be deprived of their UK citizenship and sent there.  Whatever I do wrong, they can't do that to me."Not yet.

David Ainsworth ● 418d

I think that's a rather simplistic analysis, Mr Hawkes. To be honest I can't be bothered to discuss it but I can think of a couple of people previously of Dutch and French nationality who became British citizen s who probably wouldn't fit into your binary categorisation - as I used to say to my IT teams, we deal in binary digits of back and white (or light on and dark off) but remember that the real world is analogue and a spectrum of colours :-) However, your analysis should take into account that the UK bound itself voluntary to an international agreement that it would not make anyone stateless by recinding UK citizenship. Of course Mr Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson was born in the USA and apparently Mr Nigel Paul Farage has never denied rumours he holds a German passport. Perhaps because of the damage Brexit has done, such as the border between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, their British citizenships could be revoked! Interestingly, that might put Boris Johnson in a similar position as Shamima Begun; as he revoked his own US citizenship to avoid Federal Capital Gains Tax they might say it's now irrelevant he was born in the US in the same was that Bangladesh says Begun, despite her as Bangladeshi heritage, doesn't qualify as she failed to apply before the necessary age :-)
(There's some online evidence Farage's application for German citizenship was challenged because of an alleged false statement https://skwawkbox.org/2019/04/23/farage-applied-for-german-passport-on-day-after-2016-referendum-and-did-not-deny-having-one/ so he might be in limbo too …)

Michael Ixer ● 418d

Mr EvansThe two classes of British Citizen might be categorised as -1) those whose British ancestry and socio/cultural beliefs and attitudes go far back.Or -2) those that have only recently arrived bringing with them attitudes, beliefs and perhaps a propensity to activities many of the first group find disturbing if not threatening.Both are I assume equally vulnerable under the law to a loss of citizenship but probably those in the second group are more it risk.

John Hawkes ● 418d

Apparently "Salman Ramadan Abedi's father was a member of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, a Salafi jihadist organisation proscribed by the United Nations, and father and son fought for the group in Libya in 2011 as part of the movement to overthrow Muammar Gaddafi. Abedi's parents, both born in Tripoli, remained in Libya in 2011, while 17-year-old Abedi returned to live in the United Kingdom. He took a gap year in 2014, when he returned with his brother Hashem to Libya to live with his parents. Abedi was injured in Ajdabiya that year while fighting for an Islamist group. The brothers were rescued from Tripoli by the Royal Navy survey ship HMS Enterprise in August 2014 as part of a group of 110 British citizens as the Libyan civil war erupted, taken to Malta and flown back to the UK."Salman Ramadan Abedi, the Manchester Bomber, was born in the UK. He fought as part of a jihadist group against Gaddafi in Libya in 2011. The UK (with NATO) also fought to overthrow Gaddafi in Libya in 2011. So, for a while, he was a terrorist on our side, helping to create unending chaos in Libya (another Cameron benefit).You don't seem to have any real way at all of linking Ernesto Elliott to Begum. For him you write "Anyway, a nasty piece of work better off in his own country than ours." But for Begum you think that she is better off in some other country than ours (which is also her own country).And do you favour the deportation of those 900 Syria returnees? Surely as threats you must think that they are similar to Begum? And doubtless some were born here, like the "London Bridge stabber". If one Begum is the the threat that you believe she is, then this 900 must be a massive threat.

David Ainsworth ● 419d

The wider problem with the Begum judgement and the Act that underpins it, is that it creates two classes of British Citizen.  Many millions of our people who have but a tenuous connection with somewhere else are potentially exposed to being be deprived of their UK citizenship and sent there.  Whatever I do wrong, they can't do that to me.

Peter Evans ● 419d

Mr AinsworthLooks like the father of the bombers did manage to get British Citizenship.Just shows what mugs we are - erring on the side of dodgy asylum claimants and putting indigenous Brits at risk.'The inquiry also heard the father of the Abedi brothers was thought to have lied during his asylum application, but later received British citizenship.Ramadan Abedi arrived in the UK with his wife Samia in July 1993, applying for asylum five days later.The court heard it had initially been refused, with Mr Greaney saying this "had been based on the assessment of the Home Office that Ramadan's claims regarding employment in the security services in Libya were false".He added that further considerations were "that the claimed nature of his departure from Libya was not credible… That there were, it was thought, numerous inconsistencies in his application… That he had produced a forged medical letter in relation to his wife.. and that he had failed to claim asylum in Tunisia which was one of his points on his journey to the United Kingdom".But the inquiry heard Ramadan Abedi persisted with appeals and was eventually granted refugee status in 1997.He was then refused British citizenship in September 2004 on "character grounds" as a result of previous convictions, before eventually receiving it three years later.The inquiry heard he was stopped by police when travelling to Libya in 2011 and he claimed he was involved in aid convoys giving medical aid to Libyan rebels, and denied being involved in military activity.But the hearing was told that his sister later told detectives that he had gone to Libya to fight and had received a shrapnel wound while doing so'.I cannot find if Ernesto Elliott had British citizenship.He is just reported as being a Jamaican national.He used 'the 'right to family life' (sic) as a reason as to why he should not be removed.Apt really as his son also attacked Elliott's victim with a knife (bless !).Anyway, a nasty piece of work better off in his own country than ours.His case against deportation was supported by, of course, Jeremy Corbyn, Diane Abbott and Baroness Shami Chakrabarti.Similarities with Begum ?She also was a risk to British citizens as she joined ISIL, jihadists who violently condemn all in the British way of life.As did the Manchester bomber, the London Bridge stabber and his charming father.It has also been reported that Begum had developed a reputation as an enforcer amongst other members of ISIL and had tried to recruit other young women to join the group, claims to having had no qualms that non-ISIS Arabs were decapitated.  As for only 40 out of 900 Syrian/Iraqi 'travellers' being successfully prosecuted - a) I am sure it is very difficult to make a case in our courts. Where these people come from they would probably just be taken outside and shot. b) How many of the others are just 'sleeping' as assessment must be difficult and subject to stringent legal oversite and public condemnation by 'celebs' and Labour politicians.Anyway, I doubt if I can convince you of my position.Just hope neither you or I are on the next bus or in the next concert hall that is bombed.

John Hawkes ● 419d

I believe Bangladesh have stated that she does not qualify citizenship there.

Michael Ixer ● 419d

"I wonder how many of those mentioned actually had British citizen ship and of they did not why was not more effort put into sending them back to whence they came."Well, why don't you find out and come back to the Forum with your findings? And, of course, what similarities you have found between them and Begum.--------------------"Speaking in Parliament on Wednesday, home secretary Sajid Javid said all Isis fighters who re-entered the UK had been investigated and “the majority have been assessed to pose no or a low security risk”." (Independent 21/2/19)"Of more than 900 people who travelled to Syria and Iraq from the UK, an estimated half have returned but only about 40 were successfully prosecuted." (Independent 16/7/20)

David Ainsworth ● 419d

Far be it for me to challenge a fashionably progressive Supreme Court judge like Sumption and Mr Ainsworth regarding the attempt to deprive Shamima Begum of UK citizenship, but I'll give it a go !And let's remember she does have the right to live in Bangladesh where her family are from. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nationality-and-borders-bill-deprivation-of-citizenship-factsheet/nationality-and-borders-bill-deprivation-of-citizenship-factsheet"What is ‘deprivation of citizenship’?Maintaining our national security and keeping the public safe are the government’s top priorities.Removing someone’s British citizenship, also known as deprivation of citizenship, is used against those who obtained citizenship by fraud and against the most dangerous people, such as terrorists, extremists and serious organised criminals. It always comes with a right of appeal.The power has been possible for over a century, since the 1914 British Nationality and Status of Aliens Act. It is currently in section 40 of the British Nationality Act 1981 and can be used for two reasons.1. Deprivation of citizenship where it is conducive to the public good is reserved for those who pose a threat to the UK or whose conduct involves very high harm, for example in response to activities such as those involving:- national security including espionage and acts of terrorism- unacceptable behaviour such as the ‘glorification’ of terrorism- war crimes- serious organised crimeIn such cases the power is used sparingly and complies with the UN Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness. The Home Secretary decides each case personally".So it seems like due process was and is being carried out in regard to this silly little girl, who glorified terrorism.However I would always err firmly on the side of the state and the safety of its citizens for perhaps then we will see less of incidents such as the Manchester  bombing carried out by Salman Ramadan Abedi, a 22-year-old local man of Libyan ancestry, aided by the bomber's brother, Hashem Abedi, who was found guilty of 22 counts of murder and attempting to murder 1,017 others, and was sentenced to life in prison.Their parents Ramadan Abedi and Samia Tabbal fled Libya in 1993, claiming asylum in the UK on the basis that they faced persecution under the regime of Muammar Gaddafi. The couple went on to establish new lives in south Manchester.But the conflict back in Libya loomed large in the Abedi household, with the family shuttling between Manchester and Tripoli. Ramadan was a member of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG), an Islamist organisation opposed to Gaddafi, the Manchester Arena inquiry heard.Now the counter terrorist units and MI5 are being given a lot of stick, particularly from the Guardian, for not preventing all of this.Harsh condemnation of the family seems much less.And what about Jamaican criminal Ernesto Elliott . He was  due to be aboard a Home Office charter flight in December 2020, but dodged efforts to remove him thanks to last-minute human rights appeals by Labour MPs and a host of celebrities; not just air-brained 'super models' like Naomi Campbell but also black rights activist and TV celeb historian David Olusoga.Elliott went on to commit murder 6 months later of a 35-year-old man in a horrific knife fight (over drugs of course) and we will have to pay for his incarceration for the next 26 years. I wonder how many of those mentioned actually had British citizen ship and of they did not why was not more effort put into sending them back to whence they came.

John Hawkes ● 419d

Interesting letter to the Guardian by Jonathan Sumption:-"The real scandal of the Shamima Begum citizenship caseFormer supreme court justice Jonathan Sumption on last week’s ruling on the home secretary’s decision to deprive Begum of her citizenship. Sun 26 Feb 2023 18.51 GMT"Prof Conor Gearty complains about the special immigration appeals commission’s “deference” to the government in its judgment on Shamima Begum (Shamima Begum has shown up courts’ deference to this government. It’s a worrying new era, 23 February). Decisions on deprivation of citizenship are required by statute to be made by the home secretary. The commission’s job was therefore to decide whether the home secretary’s decision was properly made, not whether it agreed with it. That is what it did. In a democracy governed by the rule of law, Prof Gearty should not have been surprised.Meanwhile, his analysis distracts attention from the real scandal. By statute, the home secretary cannot deprive a person of British citizenship if it would render them stateless. The person must have citizenship of at least one other country. When the decision was made, in 2019, Ms Begum was 19. She was a citizen of Bangladesh, but only in the most technical sense. She had provisional citizenship until she was 21, when it would lapse unless she took it up. This was because her parents were born there. But she has never been to Bangladesh. She has no links with the country. And Bangladesh has disowned her. Her Bangladeshi citizenship always was a legal fiction. Today, it is not even that. She is 23. As a result of the home secretary’s decision, she is stuck in a camp in Syria, with no citizenship anywhere and no prospect of one. Children who make a terrible mistake are surely redeemable. But statelessness is for ever.Many of those deprived of citizenship under the British Nationality Act are in the same position. They have had thrust on them under the law of an alien country a citizenship which they never chose and which has no practical reality. If not the courts, then parliament needs to address this issue.Jonathan SumptionJustice of the Supreme Court, 2012-18

David Ainsworth ● 424d

Hello Sue,The link below provides a transcript of a debate regarding UK nationals returning from Syria held in Parliament on 18 February 2019 when Sajid Javid was Home Secretary. Interesting reading.https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2019-02-18/debates/69E286BB-03A2-4467-AB65-B3059436CD53/UKNationalsReturningFromSyria

Ivonne Holliday ● 425d

Has anybody seen the documentary about her?  Or know anything about the conditions in Syria - which is still in a state of civil war?  Or are they just going to close their minds to something they know little about - other than the posturing and playing to the far right gallery by what was at the time a new Home Secretary?

Philippa Bond ● 425d

Both Shamima Begum and Greta Thunberg brought to public attention issues which concern our safety and wellbeing which our politicians needed to then and still need to act on now!

Philippa Bond ● 425d

Thanks Jo and Sue.You will always get a few thick posters on here like Winstanley.

John Lambert ● 425d

"UK schoolgirl who faced terror charges is ‘wake-up call about grooming’Charges against Rhianan Rudd, then 15, were dropped after evidence proved she had been groomed online by rightwing extremists"https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/07/schoolgirl-who-faced-terror-charges-is-wake-up-call-about-grooming

David Ainsworth ● 425d

"She's most likely an Intelligence asset".Nobody will ever accuse you of being either.

David Ainsworth ● 425d

Well said Jo! Exactly what Mr Lambert was saying in his post but Winstanley couldn't grasp it. Unfortunately he uses his brain to invent stupid words and throw insults around which is his usual MO anyway.🙄

Sue Hammond ● 425d

The Begum story and coverage is nothing but theatre, which has gone on for over 8 years now. She's most likely an Intelligence asset, used to control public thought. Works every time..

Michael Brown ● 425d

@MichaelWinstanley, have you considered that @JohnLambert could be referring to the age at which Greta Thunberg started her course of action to becoming high profile and being covered in the media, rather than her current age?  For example, https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/sep/01/swedish-15-year-old-cutting-class-to-fight-the-climate-crisisAnd equally, that Shamima Begum was 15 when she started her course of action to join ISISThe point is that the age is the same but the narrative is twisted to fit. One 15 year old is portrayed as knowledgable and to be listened to whilst the other 15 year old is painted as completely naive and child-like, incapable of holding any accountability for her actions.Perhaps you spent so much of your brainpower on thinking of which hilarious insult word to use that you failed to consider  the actual content of the current debate

Jo Amadi ● 426d

I actually have no interest in Greta Thunberg or the various extreme environmentalists that are funded by those that have flown more air miles than myself. Sweden also sat on it's Nord stream findings which had and continue to have a huge environmental impact. Has anyone heard anything from Greta on that??What about Nato membership which comes at a green cost? Leaving aside that it will have to extradite Kurds to Turkey as part of the deal and we will expect the Kurds to continue to hold our citizens who may be a risk.I am concerned that we are not energy independent and our energy costs makes us uncompetitive internationally. Green energy is cheaper and cleaner especially if it is integrated with other industrustries.Our competitors are not only have more and are investing more but have that integration. How are we going to compete with higher energy costs?Please do not assume we are all in same view!

Ed Robinson ● 426d

She's 20 you cockwomble, not 15.

Michael Winstanley ● 426d

Completely agree with what Sir David Attenborough has said.  I was horrified when I went to a lecture at the Science Museum in 2018 to discover that the scientists there had been telling us for 30 years that there was a problem. THIRTY YEARS.Then I discovered that there were groups of politicians actively campaigning against trying to mitigate any problems or find any solutions and instead busy sticking their heads in the sand and worse.

Philippa Bond ● 426d

I think it is interesting that those who show intolerance towards Shamima Begum are the same ones who show intolerance towards Greta Thunberg!

Philippa Bond ● 426d

I think. John's observation is interesting. Perhaps Greta has more credibility because she is influenced by and follows the science relating to climate change. On the other hand Shamima has, I believe, been brought up in a religious environment and, most recently, has been influenced and followed those pushing an extreme form of religion, apparently being misled by persuasive adults taking advantage of her? (Some may say Greta has been encouraged by her parents but that seems to have been after she developed an interest in the environment?)Anyway, not all fifteen year olds are the same; Mozart was composing complex music at that age, some of us probably struggled to me play a few chords on the piano or guitar at that age!

Michael Ixer ● 426d

"Shamima’s being punished without a trial. All I see is a nasty sort of mob justice"PETER HITCHENSOpinion may be a bit small 'c' conservative for some.https://www.mailplus.co.uk/edition/comment/260432

Ed Robinson ● 426d

Good evening John,I am slightly lost for words here.Are you saying that Greta Thunberg has carried out alledged terrorist actions along the same lines as Shamima Begum?If you are not, my apologies for misunderstanding.Sir David Attenborough described what Greta Thunberg has done as “astonishing and admirable” in getting people to face up to the climate crisis. “She's achieved things that many of us who have been working on it for 20-odd years have failed to achieve,” he says.And I think that Sir David Attenborough is a very knowledgeable man.

Ivonne Holliday ● 426d

"It is funny how the same people who say.. "You are confusing two issues.She was above the age or criminal responsibility so she should stand trial for any crimes just as if they were committed in the UK. This is what people are saying.However she was still a child when trafficked to Syria with the aid of at least one Western security agency.We know that other trials have collapsed due to potential embarrassment of the state which is probably why they do not want a trial here.No official report has been published by the Canadians or the UK following Trudeau announcement to investigate.You have to wonder why some people would object to the truth coming out?There appears to be sufficient evidence to confirm a cover up. If you think back to who was in charge of the borders agency then and now, this is also a political embarrassment for the Conservatives.Selective political perception springs to mind as to why anyone wouldn't want the sunlight on what happened!"Terror trial collapses after fears of deep embarrassment to security services"https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jun/01/trial-swedish-man-accused-terrorism-offences-collapse-bherlin-gildo

Ed Robinson ● 426d

Spot on Mr Lambert!

Sue Hammond ● 426d

It is funny how the same people who say give Shamima Begum a second chance because at 15 she was too young to know what she was doing are the same people who think everyone should act on the advice of 15 year old Greta Thunberg as she knows exactly what she's doing and saying.Selective perception springs to mind.

John Lambert ● 426d

Ms Allen'pour encourager les autres' !

John Hawkes ● 426d

"Sir Keir Starmer has appeared to change his position on Shamima Begum's right to return to the UK, insisting that national security must always come first."https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/sir-keir-starmer-changes-his-tune-on-shamima-begum-s-right-to-return/ar-AA17QYrw?li=BBoPRmxOh, he is looking so Prime Ministerial. Just not a Labour one.

David Ainsworth ● 428d

Of all the arguments i've heard, that's by far the weakest lol

Matt Palmer ● 428d

"But has Syria accused her of a criminal offence and, if so, attempted to arrest her?"Interestingly, I have seen a couple of articles alleging that Assad's Syria actually facilitated volunteers joining ISIL and sometimes effectively fought on their side. Assad may have wanted to pretend that all the different opposition groups were actually the same as each other. It gets beyond my comprehension.And Turkey seemed to allow all sorts of people and material across its border with Syria for some years.--------------------------------"See how yon justice rails upon yon simple thief. Hark in thine ear: change places and handy-dandy, which is the justice, which is the thief?"

David Ainsworth ● 428d

But has Syria accused her of a criminal offence and, if so, attempted to arrest her?

Michael Ixer ● 428d

"I think entering Syria and joining ISIS are 2 seperate actions.Like joining ER and then sitting in the middle of the road"Well, well. Experience on this forum shows others are happy to conflate issues to make a petty argument.

David Ainsworth ● 428d

She went to syria to join. On arrival she joined.2 acts.

Andy Pike ● 428d

Right, so she went on holiday to Syria and just bumped into an ISIS recruiter in the street?You can't have it both ways and demand that foreign criminals are deported from the UK and also expect that our own criminals abroad shouldnt be returned to us.

Matt Palmer ● 428d

I think entering Syria and joining ISIS are 2 seperate actions. Like joining ER and then sitting in the middle of the road

Andy Pike ● 428d

So you're saying she legally joined ISIS?

Matt Palmer ● 428d

I wasn't aware she had entered Syria illegally so that logic escapes me Matt.

Sue Hammond ● 428d

"Begum's (alleged) crimes were committed in Syria so she should be tried there."The logic of this escapes me. If someone enters the UK illegally and is then convicted of a crime everyone demands they are deported to their home country.So if she were tried and convicted in Syria why would you not expect her to be deported back here?

Matt Palmer ● 428d

Thanks, Andy. Sorry, I couldn't resist it as the thread had already diverged. I shall be proud to hang the award on the wall; does it come with a cheque as well? :-)

Michael Ixer ● 428d

There are over 320+ MPs with Irish Citizenship.(Obviously some of these include NI MPs. There is no official number so let's assume it is correct given that they do not want to tell us.)We have had a Foreign Secretary with USA citizenship.A Chancellor with a USA green card.I'm not sure about citizenship of other countries.Excluding NI MPs, perhaps we should look to take away their citizenships away when entering the HoC?

Ed Robinson ● 428d

What I was trying to say, I think, is that as the UK can now take away the UK citizenship of someone with dual citizenship (UK plus another) because that action will not make them stateless, then there may be people born here, with parents legally here, who may find themselves left only with the citizenship of a country where they have no desire to live.As is obvious, I do not have a legal mind nor education, but it seems to me that, if I were of Irish descent and also an active supporter of the IRA in some way of which the UK government strongly disapproved, and I was found guilty of a serious offence, then I could have my UK citizenship removed legally as this would not make me stateless, as I would still be able to apply for citizenship of Ireland (If you are born abroad, you are entitled to Irish citizenship if your parent was born in Ireland. If your grandparents were born in Ireland, you may also be able to claim citizenship through the Foreign Births Register.)

David Ainsworth ● 428d

"According to British nationality law, all UK citizens are either citizens by descent or British citizens otherwise than by descent. Citizens otherwise than by descent include those who are British citizens by birth, registration, naturalisation or adoption.British citizenship by descent is when someone who was born overseas is able to apply for British citizenship based on either their parents or grandparents status as British citizens.British citizens by descent are not subject to immigration restrictions and have most of the same rights as any other British citizens including the right to a UK passport and the right to vote in elections. However, citizens by descent are not able to pass on their British citizenship to their children who were born outside the UK whilst citizen otherwise by than by descent are able to do this."https://iasservices.org.uk/british-citizenship-by-descent/

Ed Robinson ● 428d

David,The UK does not offer citizenship to everyone born here, you have to qualify i.e prove your parents were here legally etc.That's the position supported by both Labour and Conservative.Your place of birth isn't really relevant, your parents status is.So not really a huge difference.

Ed Robinson ● 428d

Lol!😸

Sue Hammond ● 428d

And the award for getting brexit into any posting goes to Mr Ixer

Andy Pike ● 428d

It has been made much easier to travel between many countries with package holidays.  There was a teenager who used a parent's credit card to buy a flight ticket to Africa and get there.  Youngsters with parents of differing nationalities regularly travel between different countries nowadays.  Will we in future be reported to the authorities and prosecuted for having a Che Guevara poster on the wall or any other pinup with views or actions that someone else will question?  Are you now or have you ever been...?

Philippa Bond ● 428d

David, Ireland and Italy have (I think) always been offering that to people with grandparents from their countries. Jolly useful for those who need to travel to the EU for work since Brexit messed everything  up.

Michael Ixer ● 429d

It is rather confusing for a country to offer its citizenship to a person who was not born there and has no wish to live there. But it will make it easier for countries like Britain who wish to get rid of a particular person, or indeed a whole group of people, whom we deem unwelcome.

David Ainsworth ● 429d

"Experience on this forum shows Ed, David and others are happy to conflate issues to make a petty argument."Did we break a rule?

David Ainsworth ● 429d

Yes, Mr Ainsworth, as I said in my post to Sue, it will be at least fifty years before we know the details. The question is, irrespective of the security intel, did Javid and subsequent home secretaries, act lawfully when they effectively made her stateless. Subsequent to my previous posting I've now seen another legal opinion that says Bangladesh may have been wrong to refuse her citizenship when she was nineteen as at that age even if she hadn't applied for it she would have automatically had citizenship at that age by virtue of the fact one of her parents was from Bangladesh. After she turned 21 it may be different if she had dual nationality. However, it also says there are some ambiguities in Bangladesh citizenship law … possibly a case of chose a lawyer who agrees with what you want?

Michael Ixer ● 429d

Plus, somewhere she mentions having had 2 miscarriages also.

David Ainsworth ● 429d

"How come 3 babies died, could she not look after them, or were they ill."The third "baby, who was less than three weeks old, died of pneumonia, according to a medical certificate.She had previously told reporters that she lost two other children to malnutrition and disease." (Sun, 2020)"It was the third child she had lost since her first son died in November aged eight months and her one-year-old daughter died in January.Both died of malnutrition and disease." (Sun, 2023)

David Ainsworth ● 429d

No, Mr Ixer, according to Ms Hammond "Javid revoked her citizenship because he had intel from our Security Services that Begum would be a threat to our national security if she was allowed to return to the U.K."So you see, it's intel from our security services, which you are not allowed to know, so you may not question it (because you are ignorant of it). Plus which, as you may remember, our security services hardly ever get it wrong. And if they do, well, it's still a noble cause. 'Cos it's us!

David Ainsworth ● 429d

How come 3 babies died, could she not look after them, or were they ill.

Barbara Stevens ● 429d

That's raises a couple of interesting points, Sue. Did she do anything illegal under IS (if one considers that a state) or Syrian law. In fact, what specific UK laws did she break if she wasn't actively involved in fighting? Is the UK's concern that should sho be let back to the UK she might be found not guilty? But I may not be up to speed with the latest laws!

Michael Ixer ● 429d

Begum's (alleged) crimes were committed in Syria so she should be tried there.

Sue Hammond ● 429d

It will never cease to amaze me how willing people are to just give up hard won freedoms. The right to a fair trial used to extend to everyone, not just the people we liked.

Matt Palmer ● 429d

Sue. Yes, agreed, there is a danger with generalising. For a start, there are several decades between his spying activities and Begum's support of IS, and things change. I'd agree UK security agencies are now trying to recruit a more diverse workforce. Of course, Blunt was recruited by Soviet communists; perhaps because of his likely contacts within the British establishment? The same establishment which seemed happy to cover up his anti British acts and let him work with the Queen?Begum does not qualify for Bangladeshi citizenship as she didn't apply before the age deadline. My concern is the UK seems to see nothing wrong in breaching its international agreement that says it shouldn't leave anyone stateless. (IS doesn't count as to my knowledge it's not a legally recognised state and certainly isn't a UN member.) I suspect the original decision came out of incompetence because someone wanted to make a political point - they missed the subtle point about the age limit on Bangladeshi citizenship applications, perhaps they wanted to create a difficult situation for Bangladesh deliberately? They might be decades apart and circumstances are different but punishing a mistake a girl made at the age of fifteen without a trial while letting a known criminal into the royal household seems to be an imbalance in justice?

Perhaps the UK security agencies knew about the Canadian involvement and decided that it was in their interest to keep quiet? Let's be honest, the truth behind the involvement of many of those involved won't be known for what least another fifty years!This one will run! And, yes, the ones doing well will be the lawyers! It might less costly to bring her back to the UK for a trial?

Michael Ixer ● 429d

"Hopefully no one would condemn those that go to fight for a noble ( for want of a better word) cause"Putting aside that the UK considered some of the rebel groups that were later as bad as ISIS, were fighting a noble cause until they changed their mind.Even a well disciplined professional armies will commit atrocities. Be it the Mỹ Lai massacre or Bloody Sunday to name but two. The risks are higher with a militia with little or no vetting.So no I wouldn't want a neighbour or a person across the street or some teen going off independently to fight for a noble cause. And yes I would consider them a threat coming back.We do not even trust the police to be armed all the time. Why would we trust someone to be armed in another country that we do not trust being armed here?Grant Shapps thinks it is illegal, Ben Wallace unwise, Lizz Trust is all for it. Let's hope some foreign security force is not enabling our teenagers to travel there!"Brit who went to fight in Syria against IS is jailed under terror offences"The PKK is considered a terrorist organisation by Turkey which is NATO member. The problem as mentioned in the above thread is a country's position can change as shown by the recent deportation of PKK members from Sweden to Turkey.https://news.sky.com/story/aidan-james-brit-who-went-to-fight-in-syria-against-is-is-jailed-under-terror-offences-11856478

Ed Robinson ● 429d

Hopefully no one would condemn those that go to fight for a noble ( for want of a better word) cause. Experience on tjus forum shows Ed, David and others are happy tk conflate issues to make a petty argument.Begum did not go to fight for a noble cause, she is a terrorist

Andy Pike ● 429d

Yeah we know all that Phillipa although what the EU has to do with it I can't fathom.🙄Javid revoked her citizenship because he had intel from our Security Services that Begum would be a threat to our national security if she was allowed to return to the U.K.

Sue Hammond ● 429d

Really? So you would condemn those who went to Ukraine to fight against the Russian invaders or indeed those who went to fight in the Spanish civil war?

Jane Carter ● 429d

Sadly it does not appear to be illegal to serve in a foreign armed force. Not according to a recent UK Foreign Secretary.Putting aside their questionable legal status if captured, it is not certain if they will have their UK citizenship removed or not. I guess it will depend how things develop.

Ed Robinson ● 429d

"However I would think the majority of them are protected by the Establishment for national security reasons which makes sense because our security services cannot risk them being captured or defecting to a hostile regime."You do know that Blunt was probably working for the NKVD for some years before he began also working for MI5? And yet you treat him so gently, while you refer to Begum as "It"?

David Ainsworth ● 429d

She is British, was born and brought up here and was stripped of her citizenship by a new and posturing Home Secretary.  It is supposed to be illegal to make anyone stateless. She doesn't and didn't have Bangladeshi citizenship although she has Bangladeshi heritage.Many UK citizens have applied for Irish or any other EU citizenship they are entitled to so as to retain free movement to the EU.

Philippa Bond ● 429d

From memory, Bangladesh said no because she was not brought up there and had no relatives?

Ivonne Holliday ● 429d

Bangladesh doesn't want her either.

Sue Hammond ● 429d

It's not our laundry it belongs to the Islamic State. Send her back to the remnants of the caliphate , be interesting if they would want her now she claims to be western again.

Andy Pike ● 429d

Why should the Kurds have to take in all our dirty laundry?

Caroline Whitehead ● 429d

I agree with you, Judy and Caroline.She should go to court in the UK.  If they have enough proof that she personally committed all those dreadful things people are talking about, then to jail she goes.But she should be allowed to come back.

Ivonne Holliday ● 429d

"Predictable David, it's all down to the Daily Mail. I must read this paper one day".An important national newspaper, which affects and reflects the views of many millions in this country. Ain't that a shame.Anyway, save your money, you've got it off pat already."Whether right or wrong, it's a matter of fact that Britain is out of step with most of the western world on this issue, now that countries including Spain, Canada and Germany are repatriating their nationals and putting them on trial.For now, Shamima Begum isn't coming back to Britain, nor is there any indication she will be extradited to Bangladesh (the country Britain says she is now a citizen of).And so she will remain in Syria in a legal limbo and in the custody of Kurdish forces who control the region but warn they cannot keep control of so many foreign prisoners ad infinitum." (Sky News)

David Ainsworth ● 429d

Predictable David, it's all down to the Daily Mail. I must read this paper one day

Andy Pike ● 429d

Blimey!So you did buy the new Daily Mail Below-the-Line Random Comments generator app then.It seems to do the job.

David Ainsworth ● 429d

"I prefer to be on the side of the victims rather than the terrorist."Not helped by these terrorists when they keep changing sides!Good Taliban under Thatcher when fighting the Afghan government (papers still sealed).Bad Taliban under Blair till Johnson when fighting the Afghan government (papers still sealed).Good Syrian rebels when fighting Assad.Now they are bad Syrian rebels - did they change?https://www.businessinsider.com/britain-takes-huge-step-and-agrees-to-help-organize-syrian-rebels-into-stronger-force-2012-11?r=US&IR=T

Ed Robinson ● 429d

@Michael 16.00Re Blunt.The differences between Blunt and his ilk and terrorist supporters like Begum are stark and should not be conflated. Every developed country has a spy network and a recruitment process which by its very nature will not be above board or ethical. I am sure not every British spy is white and Oxford educated so that generalisation is probably way off the mark. However I would think the majority of them are protected by the Establishment for national security reasons which makes sense because our security services cannot risk them being captured or defecting to a hostile regime.

Sue Hammond ● 429d

You know the answer to that but that doesnt change what has been witnessed by others. I prefer to be on the side of the victims rather than the terrorist.Perhaps if she wins an eventual appeal you'll be more than happy to have her live next door to you and yours.Surely Sir Keir will give her an amnesty if he gets in power he could use the same letter that Blair used to give widespread amnesty to terrorists in Ireland

Andy Pike ● 429d

"this girl actively aided murder, rape and imprisonment and torture of others."So there has been a trial then?

David Ainsworth ● 429d

"Someone who was born British and has no other nationality cannot be deprived of their citizenship in any circumstances."https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn06820/And yet, somehow it is not so in this case.The Special Immigration Appeals Commission has published an Open judgment, but there is also a Closed judgment published which is not made public.https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Shamima-Begum-OPEN-Judgment.pdfhttps://www.ein.org.uk/news/special-immigration-appeals-commission-dismisses-shamima-begums-appeal-against-deprivation-her

David Ainsworth ● 429d

Correct, Matt. Without Blunt having a trial we don't know what atrocities resulted from his treasonous acts, including ones the UK government would prefer to remain secret ... I purposely put question marks after my statements as I have no way of ascertaining the facts, just that my experience of dealing in a network dominated by ex public school (mainly white men) suggests to me Blunt was dealt with leniently by his peers. Yes, Barbara, the Windrush is a blot in the UK's record and a good example of power being abused with no effective resort to justice in a timely manner. 

Michael Ixer ● 429d

You have to ask why the UK has gone from so-called policing the world to not being able to charge it's own citizens with hideous crimes.Revoking citizenship is not a substitute for justice. As we have seen in the Canadian case which quotes Magna Carta incidentally.What next? Do we cease extradition requests from those that flee the UK after a crime?https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/01/21/canada-repatriate-british-born-jihadi-jack-islamic-state-prison/

Ed Robinson ● 429d

I thought she had dual citizenship of uk and Pakistan they didnt want her either. And she is not stateless she left here to join Islamic State.

Andy Pike ● 429d

Which generally results in a trial....

Matt Palmer ● 429d

Well Michael, why were they sending Windrush families back or trying to who had been here all their lives.

Barbara Stevens ● 429d

What a load of liberal clap trap. Not saying that Blunt should not have felt the full force of the law but to make it about colour and status is nonsense. There is a 40 year difference and this girl actively aided murder,  rape and imprisonment and torture of others.

Andy Pike ● 429d

Yes Michael, my other half said she was probably English, but I couldn't say a colour or that would have been wrong. There brought up different. When I worked at Pottertons central Heating years ago, a young girl had started there very sweet, she had a young friend who was Indian who she went around with. One day the young girl came into work really upset, said she had gone to her friends house the night before and her parents said she's not here anymore so where was she. She went a few times and never saw her again. An arranged marriage perhaps, so they are different then to English.

Barbara Stevens ● 429d

Only had time to skim some of the reports but the ruling was interesting. It seemed to say there was a high probability she had been groomed but that the court had no power to override the decision of the Home Secretary on those grounds. I would like to see this appealed further - cost shouldn't be an issue on important points of law. It seems odd that someone born and brought up in the UK can have their citizenship removed whatever their alleged crimes? (Technically she hasn't been found guilty of any crime as she hasn't been found or pleaded guilty of one in a court of law? TV doesn't count as an official source of justice, does it!)As David notes, perhaps it helps to be a white, upper class, male with friends in the right places if you're going to commit treason?

Michael Ixer ● 429d

Shamima Begum made an amateur error. She was not public school and Cambridge educated, a professor of art history at the University of London, the director of the Courtauld Institute of Art, Surveyor of the Queen's Pictures, a leading British art historian (and Soviet spy)."According to his obituary in The New York Times:-Anthony Blunt acknowledged that he had recruited spies for the Soviet Union from among young radical students at Cambridge, passed information to the Russians while he served as a high-ranking British intelligence officer during World War II, and had helped two of his former Cambridge students who had become Soviet moles inside the British Foreign Service, Guy Burgess and Donald Maclean, escape to the Soviet Union in 1951 just as their activities were about to be exposed.He was convinced that the confession would be kept secret. "I believed, naively, that the security service would see it, partly in its own interest, that the story would never become public," he wrote. Indeed, in return for a full confession, the British government agreed to keep his spying career an official secret, though only for fifteen years, and granted him full immunity from prosecution."Thatcher, rightly, "found the whole episode thoroughly reprehensible, and reeking of Establishment collusion."Blunt eventually lost his knighthood, but he did retain his citizenship.

David Ainsworth ● 429d

Yes but that's up to Canada.

Andy Pike ● 429d

But I thought she was English - well a UK citizen - and the UK was under an international treaty obligation not to leave any of its citizens stateless? Is the UK becoming a rogue state and planning to break all its international agreements? (I thought it was stabilised a while ago she does not qualify for Bangladeshi citizenship?)

Michael Ixer ● 429d

"If Canada want him thats ok"It looks like the fact that he has not been charged was taken into consideration.So it's OK for him to be free?He should be charged and brought to court."According to its ruling, the Canadian federal court said preventing the prisoners from entering Canada would violate their constitutional rights, citing “conditions of the prison and the fact that the men have not been charged and brought to trial,” the Telegraph reported."

Ed Robinson ● 429d

On the Canada ones thankfully, as you keep reminding us, we dont have a constitution so not a case here. If Canada want him thats ok

Andy Pike ● 429d

"the point is Begum went willingly"The age of consent is set to protect children from adults.She was above the age criminal responsibility but below the age of consent. She was still a child that was trafficked by a foreign state's agents. It does not excuse her crime but it does indicate that another crime also took place."there was no coercion or grooming/brainwashing involved"And you know how exactly? Did we know that the Canadian Security services were involved? No. That was conveniently left out by the British Conservative PM Theresa May."allowed back along with dozens of others"Luckily we have the best in world border forces after 12 years of Conservative rule that keeps criminals from slipping back in!The assumption that we are safe because third parties continue to hold them is false.https://news.sky.com/story/canada-to-repatriate-british-born-jihadi-jack-along-with-22-others-held-in-syria-12792505https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/22/former-is-fighters-say-they-paid-way-out-of-kurdish-jail-in-reconciliation-schemehttps://ahvalnews.com/turkey-syrian-kurds/syrian-kurdish-leader-says-relations-finland-sweden-continue

Ed Robinson ● 429d

Grooming claim is the same as the jock rapist claiming he's transgendering.Convenient excuse in the hope of getting away lightly.

Andy Pike ● 429d

Ed it doesn't really matter which route was used to arrive in Syria, the point is Begum went willingly, there was no coercion or grooming/brainwashing involved. I am sick of it playing the victim card and being aided and abetted by the BBC.

Sue Hammond ● 429d

And Jihadi Jack should he too be allowed back along with dozens of others. Given a trial released after a couple of years then on parole to do what? We know how many come out of jail to offend again . London Bridge ! Nothing we can do about that if already here but we can stop them coming back.

Andy Pike ● 429d

"She left a country"As a child she was assisted in leaving the country by a Canadian secret service agent.Teenagers have all sorts of mad dreams but the difference is a foreign security service does not enable them to become true."Those saying she was young presumably have similar sympathies for the killers of the 2 year old in Liverpool some years back."Rubbish, she should stand trial just like those killers.This is obviously a bit uncomfortable for the UK & Canadians Governments but sunlight is needed.

Ed Robinson ● 429d

She left a country she hated to take arms against it and others. No sympathy here.Those saying she was young presumably have similar sympathies for the killers of the 2 year old in Liverpool some years back.

Andy Pike ● 429d

I have never swallowed all this 'she was trafficked' crap. Begum and her mates knew exactly what they were going out there to do..to provide sex for Jihadi terrorists. They had actively searched the internet for information on how to become Jihadi brides and this is how the connection was made, and the rest is history. Now its lawyers have lost another appeal no more legal aid should be wasted on this, in fact I don't see why it was given to a terrorist sympathiser in the first place.🤬

Sue Hammond ● 429d

Agreed. Let her back and put her on trial.

Matt Palmer ● 429d

I think it is bad.She should stand trial in the UK for any crimes she has committed. Those that assisted her directly or indirectly should also be charged."Even after Scotland Yard launched an urgent investigation into the whereabouts of the missing schoolgirls, Canadian spies sat on the information for several weeks before handing over the details to British investigators, according to The Secret History of the Five Eyes, by Richard Kerbaj, which studies the relationship between intelligence agencies in the UK and some other English speaking countries.It was only once Turkish authorities arrested al-Rashed, more than a week after the girls entered Syria, that CSIS informed British police that their agent had transported the teens."https://www.itv.com/news/2022-11-18/ex-canadian-spy-calls-for-shamima-begums-uk-return-after-spy-agency-cover-up

Ed Robinson ● 429d

There are two sides to every story. I don't think she should be allowed back, but if she was an English girl who had gone out there and had got in with the wrong crowd. Would we have felt more sorry for her being so young and stupid. When we were younger we thought we were grown up at 15 having to go to work. But disappearing to another country is a different matter.

Barbara Stevens ● 429d

My thoughts too Judy. By all means try her and, if need be, put her in prison here. But don't leave her in limbo.

Caroline Whitehead ● 429d

She was so young when she went out there and she's had an awful time, losing her babies.  Can we really leave her in limbo for the rest of her life as punishment for a teenage misjudgement?  Or am I being naive?

Judy Allen ● 429d