Forum Topic

Time for a Change to the Dog Laws

So far this year, a 4 year old child killed by a dog, and a dog walker killed by the dogs she was looking after, is it time for the dog laws to be updated?

Martine Guy ● 896d52 Comments

Yes Martine, really miss my Yorkie, but don't walk as well now. Not fair to get another one.

Barbara Stevens ● 892d

Thanks Barbara. I do remember your little dog, by the way. I think there might have been a bit of a change of opinion about dog control if online forums/comments are anything to go by which must have been caused by the huge increase in dog numbers, particularly the XL Bully. I want dogs muzzled on public transport, in shops, and in cafes, restaurants and pubs.

Martine Guy ● 892d

If you go to front page of the forum. Look down at the other sites, Hammersmith has a piece on the subject.

Barbara Stevens ● 892d

David, thanks for input. The Times give  the number of dogs as about 13 million, but nobody knows the exact figures.  Several dog charities have come together and been “hounding the government for a total reform.  “The Dog Control Coalition is made up of various animal organisations, including the RSPCA, Battersea Dogs Home, the vet charity PDSA and the Kennel Club”. The article refers to the human cost of dog attacks and mentions a postwoman who lost her finger when she was bitten through the letterbox by a Rottweiler shar pei cross.  The owners found her finger but attempts to save it were unsuccessful.  A year later “the dog attack has left her with deep mental scars.” Let us not forget “11 year old Kellie Lynch mauled by two Rottweilers and decapitated while on holiday in the Scottish town of Dunoon”.  One of the dog attacks on babies and childrenthat led to the introduction of the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991.

Martine Guy ● 892d

An "increase was witnessed in the dog population; since 2010 it increased from 7.6m to 12.5m today."A near doubling of UK dog population in 12 years.https://pawsandpresto.com/blogs/news/uk-dog-statistics-every-dog-owners-must-know#:~:text=3%3A%2034%25%20of%20UK%20households,%25%20)%20that%20own%20a%20cat.Also:-"Lower than half of UK dog owners take their dog for a walk daily.""69% of dog owners according to statistics underestimated the cost of owning their pets.""This cost underestimation is why many pets are taken to the RSPCA every year."

David Ainsworth ● 892d

Today’s “Sunday Times”:  “Dog bites put 9,000 people a year in hospital.  Why is our law toothless”.  Here’s some of it: “Dog charities agree the law is unfit for purpose…….The RSPCA in particular wants dog licences  to be reintroduced, as in Northern Ireland, where they cost £12.50 a year.   The money raised would be ring fenced and ploughed back into funding council dog wardens (the majority of whom have been laid off due to spending cuts) and officers to enforce some of the rules that already exist.” “Despite the seriousness of the situation, there’s still a tendency to be lighthearted when it comes to unruly dogs”. ”Dave Joyce, who protects Royal Mail workers as part of his job as national health and safety officer for the Communications Union” says “Dog attacks and dog control law and order is a national crisis in this country …. It’s out of control”

Martine Guy ● 892d

I'm not going against anything that has been put on here, I used to have a yorkie, when walking her or taken her to a car boot for a walk around on a Sunday. Little children do have a habit of not stroking her, but more like little slaps and she wanted to be picked up. As for large dogs I agree I was going to work years ago and I walked down Quill Lane and there was an Alsatian on it own, nobody about. My legs went like jelly. I agree dogs should be muzzeled, or not allowed.

Barbara Stevens ● 893d

I could not find a current petition to expand the current act. The last one I found was closed:"Add 'American Bully' dogs to the list of banned dog breeds"https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/618243There was a petitions to repeal the act which was discussed in Parliament.Is there any justification for continuing such breeds?The repeal argument seems to be about the process and not the act itself or am I missing something?The pet lobby are quite active. Interestingly the cat lobby think there should be stricter penalties against dogs owners when a dog kills a cat.Perhaps a dog owner can enlighten us to the need for these breeds of dogs. Dogs after all are bred for people!"Repeal the current Dangerous Dogs Act and replace with new framework"https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/624876"Breed specific legislation to be debated by MPs"https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/326/petitions-committee/news/172667/mps-question-government-inaction-on-cruel-legislation-targeting-certain-dog-breeds/

Ed Robinson ● 894d

And it isn’t just the physical disfigurement or wounds, it is the mental damage.  Once you have been attacked by a dog, I doubt you will ever mentally recover and the person attacked will spend their life in fear of close contact with a dog.

Martine Guy ● 894d

Carole, you are a responsible dog owner, but there are people who aren’t.  What do we do about the children who are scalped by dangerous dogs or have part of their face bitten off?  This isn’t just about deaths by dangerous dogs, there are adults and children suffering life changing disfigurement because they have been attacked by a dog. I was pleased to read today of the dog owner sentenced to 2 years in prison because her dog attacked someone.  More severe sentencing is needed and confiscation of assets or fines.

Martine Guy ● 894d

"If you didn't start by having your own personal view, how would you get to the point of having enough support to propose banning all pets?"David - I recommend you watch the Rimmerworld episode of Red Dwarf."Can we? I don't see much personal benefit to be gained from having one's dogs regularly walked by someone else."There could be hundreds of reasons, what if someone:    lost or is now separated from their partner who used to walk it    lost their mobility    had to get a new job and will not be back till late    have to travel long distances occasionally    children now have grown up and gone away to uni    moved to area where there are no parks    do not feel safe walking in the dark during winterIt really is none of our business as long as the pet is not harmed and other people are not harmed.Should we start policing people lives when we can't even police the streets during the day?

Ed Robinson ● 894d

Goodevening, everyoneOK, the Covid 19 lockdown meant that most people worked from home, and some actually purchased dogs!!!!Now, of course, those people now have to go back to the office, and leave their dog/dogs with a dogwalker.  Sad, but that's what happens.Remember, no dog is bomb-proof!!!!!!Most carers/owners are responsible and most dogs are also responsible.  However, again no dog is bombproof and so carers/owners should be very careful around people the dog/dogs don't know.  Please, again, be very very careful.  Most dogs are fine, as indeed are the owners/carers, but please, do be careful!!!!!!!

Carole Tanner ● 894d

"I wouldn't propose banning all pets based on my own individual view."If you didn't start by having your own personal view, how would you get to the point of having enough support to propose banning all pets?"We can't really measure what benefits people get from a pet but we can acknowledge that they do."Can we? I don't see much personal benefit to be gained from having one's dogs regularly walked by someone else.

David Ainsworth ● 894d

If there is clear evidence, it would seem sensible to extend the Dangerous Dogs Act to include some additional breeds. I think the existing legislation where applicable requires muzzling, registration and sterilisation. That I would support.I would not support a retrospective & regressive tax on all dog owners. Noise and other issues are quite separate, IMO it weakens the case for taking appropriate action.

Ed Robinson ● 894d

Carole, I agree with everything in your post.  But it’s not the responsible dog owners and their dogs that’s the problem, it’s the keeping of powerful, scary dogs with the capacity to kill. Faced with a small aggressive terrier or an XL bully dog, I think I would rather take my chances with the terrier.  The bull breeds have powerful jaws that lock onto their victims and make it difficult to get the dog off. Lots of comments on Forums from responsible dog owners who are also scared of these dogs.

Martine Guy ● 894d

In the case of the 4 year old girl who was killed by a dog in Milton Keynes, the family had only owned the dog 6 weeks.  I hope the person who sold or gave the dog to the family is prosecuted, fined and sent to prison.

Martine Guy ● 894d

Good afternoon, everyoneOK, yes of course it is more than distressing to hear of people and more importantly, children, being killed by dogs.  However,dogs are not bombproof!  The majority of owners are responsible, and the majority of dogs are well behaved.  There are of course rules which should be observed, for instance, NEVER leave a child with a dog with no other adult being present!!!!  There are millions of dogs being kept as pets in this country alone, so a few (although of course this should never happen) turning "rogue" is almost to be expected.  Well behaved dogs are the result of good training, and well informed carers.  Small dogs are usually of the terrier type, who have been trained over centuries to hunt, chase and kill, so better a large well-behaved dog than a small aggressive one.  Remember, only ever touch a dog with the owners' consent!!!!

Carole Tanner ● 894d

Even worse for the parents when they are the ones who bought the dog.

Marc Blanchard ● 894d

I agree it is wrong to stop pet ownership, but I think there’s a bit of a difference between a yorkie and an XL dog. Doesn’t a resident’s Right to the Peaceful Enjoyment of their home apply to council estates?  Why should residents feel intimidated by the presence of an XL type dog?  The presence of such dogs causes people anxiety and fear, they shouldn’t have to live like that so that another resident can own a dog capable of killing someone.

Martine Guy ● 894d

"On the overall topic, I wonder why people own dogs, if they need to employ somebody else to walk them?"I'm not sure it is for us to say how people run their lives if they are not causing harm to others or the pet. I can imagine a wide variety of situations where someone may need a dog walker. I personally think having a pet is like having your own private circus - but I wouldn't propose banning all pets based on my own individual view.Years ago Wandsworth did have a clause in some of their leases that prevented pet ownership in certain properties. This quite rightly has been removed. We can't really measure what benefits people get from a pet but we can acknowledge that they do.The issue is when there is a concern that impacts others is it acted upon appropriately?I would say at the moment it doesn't appear to be the case with local authorities. It doesn't generate revenue and it is not one of their statutory obligations so it is low down the priority list.On the Tower Hamlets incident - I was watching the video last night. It took quite a few police officers to handle the situation.

Ed Robinson ● 894d

Mail Online reporting another dog attack.  This time in Tower Hamlets, a 13 year old boy bitten at a bus stop.  The dog looks like an XL Bully.  People commenting on the size/power of the dog’s jaw.  That’s part of the problem isn’t it?  The powerful bite of these type of dogs.  It’s why people are afraid of them.

Martine Guy ● 894d

I also think the type of dog should be taken into consideration, we aren’t talking about Great Danes are we?

Martine Guy ● 894d

I think that’s a fair point, Andy and this is a very difficult problem.  I think the size of the dog, the size of the flat, and the flat’s location in the block should be taken into consideration.  There is no reason, however, that the Dog Bye-Laws should not apply to every local authority estate in Wandsworth.  Times change, there are dogs on estates where previously there were none.

Martine Guy ● 894d

It would be a very brave authority that would issue a wholesale ban on dogs. To my memory every time the tenancy agreement was reviewed with resident reps on the consultation panels this would come up but would never be supported. I believe/ recall Wandsworths position is that all dogs living in its properties must be micro chipped. If you have a blanket ban who decides if the yorkie that barks at the postman is ok or the big doberman that sleeps most of the day is too big.Dogs are like people for every bad one there are thousands of safe, friendly lovable dogs. A wholesale ban would be unfair.The Housing Dept react to any reports of dangerous dogs by utilising the dog warden service. Again a big dog that barks is not necessarily dangerous.

Andy Pike ● 894d

David, thanks for this. I think it applies to the dog bye laws and I contacted Wandsworth Dog Control to ask why the dog ByeLaws do not apply to all council estates. The dog bye law is a piece of legislation that is unique to Wandsworth. Here is some of the reply: ”I believe that the rationale behind not including certain small estates and infill blocks in this Bye Law, one of which is xxx, was that they have small amenity grass areas that we deemed not appropriate and thus not attractive to exercise dogs on, there were no dogs residing in these blocks or estates and there were no previous dog issues recorded.” So you have a local authority estate where no one has ever complained about dogs, then someone new moves in with a status type dog and the long term residents start complaining because they are scared.  
Time for our new Labour Council to change the Dog By Laws so they apply to every local authority estate in Wandsworth, no exceptions.

Martine Guy ● 894d

This may help:-https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/media/3665/dogbyelaws.pdfOn the overall topic, I wonder why people own dogs, if they need to employ somebody else to walk them? Is it sensible?

David Ainsworth ● 894d

I want to ask a question about dogs on local authority estates, ie estates that are blocks of flats, not houses.  In the past, I understand, dogs weren’t really allowed to be kept in flats and some estates were virtually dog free, except for maybe small dogs.  Now this seems to have changed  I think you can keep a large status dog in a small flat?  I have heard of this happening and that other residents are afraid.  It would seem a resident’s right to have a dog, outweighs the rights of other residents to feel safe and unintimidated.

Martine Guy ● 894d

Don't forget that dogs nowadays have to be microchipped.https://www.gov.uk/government/news/compulsory-dog-microchipping-comes-into-effectI don't know what percentage of dogs are already microchipped and I bet that a lot of those aggressive and large crosses aren't.

Philippa Bond ● 895d

Re:  the NRA.  I have found the comment which is on Mumsnet regarding the recent attack on the 4 year old girl. ”Could have 1000 children killed by dogs and dog owners would not accept any form of restriction, licensing.  They are the NRA of the U.K.”

Martine Guy ● 895d

Agree, Ivonne.

Martine Guy ● 895d

Wimbledon & Putney Common:Yes it's 4 with a few exceptions, although no idea if it enforced."We ask that you walk no more than 4 dogs in any one group - regardless of the number of people.  A small number of dog-walkers are licensed to walk up to 6 dogs, with no more than four off-lead at any one time."https://www.wpcc.org.uk/things-to-do/dogs

Ed Robinson ● 895d

I think that the ones that need a licence are the owners, not the dog.

Ivonne Holliday ● 895d

There was a dog attack on the 26th at 11.00 pm at White Hart Roundabout Northolt.  Two cars collided and when the occupants were exchanging details, a dog suddenly appeared and attacked a 74 year old woman breaking her arm.  The police are trying to find the dog’s owner.  On the CCTV, the dog looks like a pit bull.

Martine Guy ● 895d

I think owning and walking one of those large fierce dogs when used in a threatening way is no different from carrying a firearm.  Just not illegal...yet.There was a big uptake in the ownership of dogs during the pandemic.  Now that people are going back to work it has become harder for them to give them as much attention as they did.  Also a lot of puppy training was missed but as I understand it it isn't too late if people can give the issue the time it needs.

Philippa Bond ● 895d

Just found an interesting article, while looking for something else:-https://news.sky.com/story/why-dogs-attack-from-tiktok-trends-to-lockdown-habits-what-could-be-behind-the-rise-in-fatal-dog-bites-12800551"Dr Tulloch agreed: “One thing that I would say is that any breed is capable of biting.”It’s difficult to draw conclusions about how and if breeds correlate to attack rates because dog population statistics are “very poor” overall and in the vast majority of attacks are not noted on medical or death records.While larger, strong dogs may have the power to do more damage, Dr Tulloch noted that people have had “very significant injuries from very small dogs”."Yes, but, the thing is, a very small dog is more likely to get very significant injuries from me, if it does something dangerously daft. But a 190 pound Bully XL? Well, I'm not a betting man ...

David Ainsworth ● 895d

Andy, I agree the people with problem dogs won’t pay a licence and it will be the responsible dog owners who end up paying, but I want to see money raised to employ more dog wardens and to help pay for the burden dog attacks are putting on the NHS. re: the comparison with gun laws in the U.S., I have recently read someone post on a Forum that ownership of status dogs in this country is similar to the NRA in the USA and this comment got lots of agreement.  If I can find the thread again, I will provide further details. What I have noticed on public forums, is that those who want something done are getting much more support rather than the usual, “it’s not the dog to blame, it’s the owner”.  People are scared.

Martine Guy ● 895d

"And the comparison with USA gun laws is daft."Gosh, forensically taken apart.

David Ainsworth ● 895d

I think its 5 on the common now (limit set a couple of years back) . I remember some years back playing golf on the common and this guy regularly walked 20+ dogs on and off the lead. We always said if they decided to pack for any reason he and anyone else in the vicinity would have no chance.

Andy Pike ● 895d

There are some very tragic cases.Perhaps something more local?I certainly think the limit for dog walkers should be 4 at the maximum and not 8. It is 5 to 6 in Richmond.https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/business-and-licensing/licensing/animal-welfare-licensing/apply-for-a-multiple-dog-walking-licence/https://www.richmond.gov.uk/services/parks_and_open_spaces/pspos_and_byelaws/dog_control_pspo/apply_for_a_resident_dog_walking_permit

Ed Robinson ● 895d

I doubt the people with the problem dogs would pay the licence and even if they did it would not stop the attacks.In the same way as licenced drivers still have accidents or drink drive.And the comparison with USA gun laws is daft.

Andy Pike ● 895d

There seems to be a rising number of dog attacks and claims to solicitors for dog bites. The child that died in Milton Keynes was killed by a dog bought by her family 6 weeks ago.  The police think it was a cross between a pit bull and a husky.  
Bring back the dog licence and give some of the money to the overstretched NHS which has to deal with the horrendous injuries that are being suffered in dog attacks.

Martine Guy ● 895d

"27% of UK adults have a dog with an estimated population of 10.2 million pet dogs"No idea if that is accurate but that is a huge number.Any change would have to be very targeted to have any chance of success.They could add some breeds to the existing banned list and allow current owners to keep their pets provided they are registered and confirmed that their dogs are sterilised.Is it likely to happen? No.The reality is that we still have hounds chasing foxes.https://www.pdsa.org.uk/what-we-do/pdsa-animal-wellbeing-report/uk-pet-populations-of-dogs-cats-and-rabbits

Ed Robinson ● 896d

"2 pit bulls, family pets, killed 2 children""I am grateful we banned them in this country.""The American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT) was the foundation (parent breed) used to create the American Bully". (Wikipedia).Also Wikipedia:-"Until the mid-19th century the now extinct Old English Terriers and Old English Bulldogs were bred together to produce a dog that combined the gameness of the terrier with the strength and athleticism of the bulldog. This type of dog, which was bred in the British Isles, became known as the bull and terrier. These dogs arrived in the United States in the late nineteenth century where they became the direct ancestors of the American Pit Bull Terrier.In the United Kingdom, bull and terriers were used in bloodsports such as bull baiting and bear baiting. These bloodsports were officially eliminated in 1835 when Britain introduced animal welfare laws. Since dog fighting is cheaper to organize and far easier to conceal from the law than bull or bear baits, bloodsport proponents turned to pitting their dogs against each other instead."

David Ainsworth ● 896d

David, one comment I read was from a male dog owner who struggles to control his dog and says there is no way he could control an XL Bully.  People are seriously scared about these dogs, including other dog owners. Re:  the U.S. there was an absolutely tragic case there last October where 2 pit bulls, family pets,  killed 2 children aged 5 months and two, and mauled their mother.  I am grateful we banned them in this country.

Martine Guy ● 896d

"I think there needs to be a change to the law, particularly regarding American Bully dogs. This was the type of dog that killed the little girl in Milton Keynes.  People are afraid, it must be awful to live next door to one."Another Bully XL which killed its owner (in UK) weighed 196 pounds. I should have trouble defending myself against that brute. This is a new breed from the US (last 3 decades). Why would anyone think that was a necessary thing to create? Fair enough, it is the USA where it is often legal to walk around openly with an assault rifle. It obviously answers some sort of deeply-felt need in "the world's policeman".Why not just breed a slightly more muscled poodle or pekinese, not a tank made of meat?

David Ainsworth ● 896d

Several commented on MailOnline that the government were too gutless/spineless to do anything about the dog problem.  Presumably more people/children are going to lose their lives for something to be done.  Also people commented that politicians are too out of touch to understand people’s concerns about this.

Martine Guy ● 896d

Ed, re a dog licence, many won’t pay it, but if it’s a legal requirement then the responsible dog owner will pay it.  This money should be used for employing dog wardens. I’ve been reading online comments on Mail Online and another Forum.  There seems to be lot of fear of the XL Bully dog and maybe it’s time to ban it.  Many want dogs muzzled in public, and I would certainly like to see this on public transport and in cafes/restaurants/pubs. re: buses, when I lived in Birmingham (thats over 40 years ago now), the rule was dogs went upstairs and I noticed here in London that this was also the case not that long ago.  I think things might have changed with Covid? (The dog in Sainsburys didn’t look like a assistance dog)

Martine Guy ● 896d

I'm not a dog person or cat either - in fact I just don't get the whole pet thing. But there are many people who are and who are also responsible.I'm not sure a dog general licence would be appropriate.Would a licence for only certain breeds may make more sense?Just looking at fatalities when the number are low doesn't always give a clear picture. It's the same with cycling deaths.You have to look at the seriously injured numbers as receiving prompt medical help can prevent a potential fatality.With regards to Sainsburys: "Assistance dogs are welcome in all our stores and petrol stations" so either it was an assistance dog or they ignored the sign.I can't recall anyone ever enforcing the upstairs dog rule on buses. Children above 5 are required to have a TFL photo travelcard, perhaps dogs should too? :)

Ed Robinson ● 896d

I agree Philippa. I always thought the dog licence was a waste of time, but now I think it should be reintroduced.  The money raised to be used on employing more dog wardens. Sadly I think the figure of 10 deaths that Ed mentions will be greater in 2023.

Martine Guy ● 896d

There obviously needs to be chasing up and tightening of laws on people who are breeding designer dogs.

Philippa Bond ● 896d

I think there needs to be a change to the law, particularly regarding American Bully dogs.  This was the type of dog that killed the little girl in Milton Keynes.  People are afraid, it must be awful to live next door to one.
Something I find that has changed is where you can take a dog.  In the past you couldn’t take a dog into a food shop or chemist unless it was a guide dog, but I was in Sainsburys and there was a dog in the store and in Boots someone had tied their dog up inside the store.  Also I thought you had to take a dog upstairs on a bus but there were 2 downstairs on the 337 the other week. I think the new very long dog leads give the owners less control over the dog and don’t seem to stop the dogs jumping up on people.

Martine Guy ● 896d

According to wiki there were 10 fatalities last year.Lots of detail:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_Kingdom

Ed Robinson ● 896d