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Gove on Sunday with Laura Kuenssberg

Collective government failures regarding building regulations "over many years" were partly to blame for the Grenfell Tower fire, Housing Secretary Michael Gove has said.He said a new contract published on Monday would tell developers who built unsafe buildings "to make them safe".The minister said "far too many" unsafe buildings still need remedial work.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64443282Hmmmmm, great that they will tell developers to make unsafe building safe.  Should they not have been so in the first place?Also, nothing about improving building regulations. ??????????

Ivonne Holliday ● 451d27 Comments

If the door closers on the lobby doors in a building aren't closing the doors properly they need to be reported for maintenance work as they will let smoke and fire in.  Door closers are there for a purpose!

Philippa Bond ● 448d

Buildings like this need to be managed.  This is made increasingly difficult with many different flat owners.  As a result of Grenfell a lot of flats' owners all over were made to change their front doors so that those doors had the requisite fire resistance.That is just the flat doors.  There is a problem with blocks of flats (and offices and converted houses) where residents leave inflammable things on the landings, in the stairwells and also wedge fire doors open.  Many people don't seem to understand the importance of fire doors closing properly.  I've seen ones that don't fit properly and where the intumescent seals have been painted over - so they won't work when they need to.  Smoke is a big problem not just flames.The fragmented way in which much work is done nowadays leaves a lot to be desired.  With so many people often involved it is even more necessary for supervision and checking.

Philippa Bond ● 448d

I think with Grenfell, 'all of the above' applied, with penny pinching and negligence at every level, added to RBKC's generally dismissive attitude to their social tenants and residents in the north of the Borough. My fear with the Grenfell enquiry is that there's been so much corporate buck-passing that they'll end up blaming the Polish guy holding the screwdriver who didn't fix the window frames properly.  As for remedial work on new blocks of flats, you'd expect the builders/developers to fix anything found to be faulty within a certain time, as with most other things, rather than the leaseholders who bought the flats in good faith having to face impossible costs.  Gove now seems to be suggesting legislation to this effect, I think after some 'voluntary' scheme failed to deliver.

Peter Evans ● 448d

EdYou are right those who live in the Borough but not in social housing do not contribute in any way to the Housing Revenue Account which funds the repairs and capital improvements to council housing. This money comes from leaseholders and tenants ( sometimes government special initiatives).Grenfell was not about non investment the contract was worth many millions. It's about negligent specification of works and materials used. Whoever the designers of the scheme were ( almost certainly a private consultancy) will have alerted their insurers to the potential of a major claim against their professional indemnity insurance once the full report is produced. Along with those that claimed the materials were fireproof and any contractor that may have been negligent in the completion of the project.If anyone at the Council reduced the specification quality they too could have a case to answer although the consultant/ designer will still presumably have agree to that. If so they may find themselves personally liable as their insurers will surely baulk at a claim from them.

Andy Pike ● 449d

"Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea is the richest Borough in London"Philippa,we are decades after Thatcher and the right to buy. It is amazing that people either pretend those policies and the decades that followed did not exist or perhaps forget forget when politically convenient.The above thread makes clear the complexities of leasehold.Grenfell would have consisted of a mixture of leasehold and council/housing association tenants.The cost for any work on the building legally has to be shared on whatever formulae is in the lease.The local authority can give small amounts for residential improvements but imagine if it paid totally for the refit and those leaseholders paid nothing.Some of those leaseholders may be residents but some may have also let their properties. Effectively the local authority would be subsidising private landlords. You can imagine the uproar.We are in 2023 decades after Thatcher whose policies both major parties have broadly supported.Be it water (or should we call it sewage), rail, energy, housing, the list goes on a lot of today's issues goes back to Thatcher and the Thatcherite government be them blue or red that followed.Now there is some good things, even excellent things the Thatcher government did. Sadly they are under appreciated. Perhaps my view above is incorrect. Happy to be corrected.I'm not excusing incompetent management which may be the case here.I'm just stating as a lay person that the wealth of the borough does not mean they are free to spend local government money on a block of flats after they have sold the leases on some of them.https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/news/news/grenfell-leaseholders-concerned-council-valuations-for-their-flats-are-not-enough-53377

Ed Robinson ● 449d

I believe that the Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea is the richest Borough in London.  That these buildings did not appear to be getting the refurbishment they needed and deserved is quite horrifying.

Philippa Bond ● 449d

The real tragedy is that the local Grenfell Residents Group had been warning the local council for years about the shoddy work being done in the building, including poor gas installations compromising fire safety, ill-fitting replacement windows, and of course, the cheap inflammable cladding.  At the time the council ignored them as trouble-makers, until, in desperation, the prophetic and now legendary Residents' blog appeared, suggesting that the only way the authorities would ever be held to account would be if there was a catastrophic fire. And so it turned out.

Peter Evans ● 449d

No. H&F. Many years ago

Maxine Campbell ● 450d

MaxineWas this a block managed by Wandsworth,? I ask as neither incident rings any bells with me unless of course they happened in the last 9 years.

Andy Pike ● 450d

I've seen it so many times, and it's a shame that leaseholders often bear the brunt. Many years ago we had two issues in our block of flats, one careless, one dangerous when they tendered for windows to be fitted and they were of such poor quality they all had to be redone. additionally the locking mechanisms weren't secure and a boy fell out of the window from the 7th floor only saved from death by hitting a tree. The second was all the boilers being replaced, poorly. They all had to be redone due to carbon monoxide leakage. There was no doubt what the issues were behind these. I hope as you say, things have improved.

Maxine Campbell ● 450d

The roof on my block was done recently. Very professional and made a huge difference with heating.Oddly enough it was not only cheaper than the previous roof repair twenty odd years ago but of a much higher standard.It was still expensive but yes I would have to agree with Andy. Leaseholders face large bills and those that let their properties tend to be very active when it comes to cost.Spending thousands tarting up single pane windows was a good example of waste. Instead of replacing them with double glazing because but they are still fit for purpose. The paint peeled a few month later btw.It is not a simple problem to solve.

Ed Robinson ● 450d

If the specification is up to standard then the lowest price in a tender situation should be accepted ( unless hugely below the Councils own estimate) . Otherwise if you accept the highest bid hiw do you get your leaseholders to agree to the price? The key is making sure the specification is detailed and unambiguous so that all tenderers are working on an equal playing field.

Andy Pike ● 450d

Unfortunately i know from experience that councils always ALWAYS, when making repairs or refurbishments go with the lowest bids knowing that they will at some stage need to put things right/make repairs. Sadly in this case many lives were lost. My view is most councils have a "fingers crossed" approach. I visited Place Ladywell in Lewisham that is a fantastic development where companies work with councils to deliver modular social housing that is high spec and extremely efficient at a cost still affordable to councils. Additionally Peter Barber is a fantastic architect delivering stunning social housing. That's what is needed but the government and many councils just can't see it.  Nothing changes if nothing changes.

Maxine Campbell ● 450d

The quality of the work, poor inspections etc also played a part. The list seem endless - but all an UK problem."It was not until just before midnight on 15 June that all of the main sources of gas were completely cut off."That's the next day!https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/news/news/emergency-valves-to-turn-off-gas-at-grenfell-tower-may-have-been-buried-by-refurbishment-71562https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/news/news/grenfell-tower-gas-work-left-holes-that-might-have-helped-smoke-spread-through-building-inquiry-hears-71586https://www.agsm.uk.com/grenfell-gas-pipes/

Ed Robinson ● 450d

Tonight he comment I saw was that the Govt want the British based developers to pay - but what about those that are building here but what about foreign based and what if they can't or won't?The stressful situation that the owners of these flats have been put in and have had to live under with walking watches etc is incredible. And we have a Govt who wants people to take responsibility and to encourage home ownership!

Philippa Bond ● 451d

I see evaluation plans have been dropped.Have they implemented any recommendation?LFB have 3 64m (20 storey reach) fire engines which is good - do we need more? It's a big city with very few bridges!

Ed Robinson ● 451d

Yes we know all that Andy, but still the owner of the flat shouldn't have to pay either way.

Barbara Stevens ● 451d

Probably similar to Ivonne's reference that I couldn't get into:https://www.regulation.org.uk/library/2021-peter_apps-grenfell_deregulation_timeline.pdf

Philippa Bond ● 451d

The English Building Regulations hadn't been updated for a long time despite several requests that they be.  Scottish ones were more up to date and I'm told easier to understand.Materials are always changing - as you would expect with new innovation.  The British Research Establishment (Govt) which tested all these materials had been privatised and Building Control too - in an effort to reduce the size of the state. The system that London had - which had originally been formed after the Fire of London - with many experienced Clerks of Works and a highly regarded and recognised method of teamwork had been disbanded.The Grenfell fire was not just to do with the cladding that was used in the refurbishment - it was far more complicated and greater than that. 

Philippa Bond ● 451d

Barbara , Grenfell wasnt a failure of the workmen who worked on the refurb. It was a failure of design and materials.The specification was wrong, the materials were wrong.Overcladding is not evil if done properly using correct materials exactly the same as any building works from electrics to new build.

Andy Pike ● 451d

How do you know Richard. My other half has found substandard wire to a ring main. You don't know everything.

Barbara Stevens ● 451d

There has been a shortage of experienced construction workers in the UK for years.  I know of teenagers of British/German parentage who have gone to Germany so that they can study in the technical colleges they have there.https://www.thecpa.co.uk/news/uk-construction-skills-shortage-cowboy-builders/

Philippa Bond ● 451d

What a disgraceful and irrelevant comment on foreign builders! All the evidence I've seen is that their standards are higher than British ones, and anyway this comment has absolutely nothing to do with the Grenfell scandal.

Richard Carter ● 451d

The Conservatives need to take responsibility being in government for the last 13 years as you say.The fact that it probably would have happened under Labour too is something Labour should reflect on too.The fact that London Fire Brigade didn't have the equipment you expect any major city to have is something we all need to reflect on.https://www.fbu.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/The%20Grenfell%20Tower%20Fire%20A%20crime%20caused%20by%20profit%20and%20deregulation..pdf

Ed Robinson ● 451d

Of course, Andy.  All governments have failed on that score.  The point I am trying to make is that the conservatives have been in power for the last 13 years, albeit with different PMs. I am not a labour supporter, but the conservatives of late leave a lot to be desired.It is OK for slimy Gove to say it is everybody's responsibility, he should have added including his!Grenfel was built in 1974 but it underwent a major refurbishemt between 2012 and 2016 to include the exterior cladding.This article provides an interesting timeline:https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/insight/insight/grenfell-tower-refurbishment-a-timeline-68533

Ivonne Holliday ● 451d

Also too many builders from other countries, not as experienced being allowed to work on gas and electric. Makes you wonder why so many houses are blowing up. Especially as some come here and are unable to even paint properly. Also all the wrong cladding being allowed by companies that hadn't checked it properly. No way anybody owing their flat should be made to pay for somebody else mistake. The Company who fitted it and made the cladding should be made to pay,

Barbara Stevens ● 451d

Of course they should and as he said over many years ALL govts have failed on that score.

Andy Pike ● 451d