Forum Topic

Environmental Legislation

Another one of those Brexit promises — now broken Speaking at an Environmental Audit Committee (EAC) hearing on Wednesday (11 July. 2018), Gove was asked whether the moves set out in the Brexit White Paper – set to be published on Thursday – would enable the UK Government to diverge from existing EU regulations on air quality, water pollution and waste management at a time when the UK is failing to meet these standards. Gove told MPs that the opportunity for ministers to set different standards to those enforced by the bloc would “unquestionably” lead to tougher regulations being introduced, claiming that many “pro-leave” politicians took their stance in the 2016 referendum partly due to the appeal of setting stricter controls than the EU.
Jump to 2022 Until Brexit the UK government was signed up to the water framework directive, which required countries to make sure all their waters achieved “good” chemical and ecological status by 2027 at the latest. But now targets to clean up the majority of England’s rivers, lakes and coastal waters suffering from a cocktail of agricultural and sewage pollution have been pushed back from 2027 to 2063. I doubt it will be too long before we can all enjoy those Brexit benefits when we turn on the tap. Dirty Old Man of Europe.

Matt Palmer ● 1138d50 Comments

"cheapest and quickest option"Yep those long term requirements creep up on you - well over 35 years anyway.

Ed Robinson ● 1113d

Thank you to both of you. Very informative. Last time we had some work done we used imported cork from Spain to insulate walls. It worked well. Helps to sustain the wildlife dependent on those forests. Still next time I'll suggest we use sheep fleece.

Katrina Black ● 1113d

"Alarming?""‘Recycling’ plan aims to replace water from Thames with treated sewage".Myself, I am getting the idea that we are running out of options now.

David Ainsworth ● 1113d

Alarming?https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jan/12/thames-water-recycling-plan-treated-sewage

Caroline Whitehead ● 1113d

As far as I'm aware bamboo cutlery etc is not produced in the UK.So shipping needs to be considered.Currently that is powered by diesel ships.We need something produced locally.

Ed Robinson ● 1114d

Katrina, have a look at a company called Thermafleece.

Martine Guy ● 1114d

Thanks Matt. I'll follow that up tomorrow.

Katrina Black ● 1114d

I don't know a great deal about insulation i'm afraid Katrina. There's certainly options online, I presume it's more expensive than modern stuff but I don't really know.https://www.insulationsuperstore.co.uk/browse/insulation/loft-insulation/sheeps-wool-insulation.html

Matt Palmer ● 1114d

Thanks Matt. That's good to know. The texture of Bamboo is so close to plastic and as it grows so quickly, it would seem a good alternative to plastic. I have wondered about that for a while so I appreciate your response.Unrelated but here's another one for you ,should you choose to respond - why don't we use sheep fleeces for insulation? A renewable resource and I believe ridiculously cheap at the moment. I'm sure our ancestors would have incorporated it into building materials for insulation. Just one of those things I have long wondered about.

Katrina Black ● 1114d

If it's pure Bamboo then it's a good replacement, there's a fair few companies out their that will see Bamboo products that actually contain plastic in them though, these are not great alternatives obviouslyOil companies are massively pushing the growth of plastic as they know the writing is on the wall for their main product - from memory they are planning on doubling production over the next 20 years

Matt Palmer ● 1114d

Does anyone know why Bamboo can't be used as a substitute for single use food trays and cups and cutlery? Just asking.

Katrina Black ● 1114d

It's great that they've done this, just a shame it's low ambition. Why not do as France has done and ban plastic packaging on most fruit and veg?

Matt Palmer ● 1114d

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/far-reaching-ban-on-single-use-plastics-in-england#

Philippa Bond ● 1115d

No. Environmental groups seem to think it should also include biodegradable plastic too.  Presumably since it can be confusing for people to tell the difference. No but better than nothing.  Why is England always behind the other countries in the UK?  How long will it stay in the long grass?There have been problems with pieces of plastic in compost.  Anything used for food waste should be compostable but that always depends on how something is composted hot or cold etc.  And then there are always companies in their desire to  obtain contracts who brag and overexaggerate or just plain lie about the performance of their products.

Philippa Bond ● 1119d

Hardly world changing is it?

Matt Palmer ● 1120d

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64205460.ampSingle plastics ban to come.

Philippa Bond ● 1120d

https://www.sas.org.uk/news/whats-on-the-horizon-for-2023/

Philippa Bond ● 1127d

https://www.nhm.ac.uk/wpy/gallery/2017-sewage-surfer

Philippa Bond ● 1128d

https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/news/2019/august/why-you-should-never-flush-wet-wipes-down-the-toilet.htmlAnd it seems that it was a complicated business financing the Thames Tideway Tunnel:https://www.tideway.london/about-us/https://www.pinsentmasons.com/out-law/news/financing-model-for-thames-tideway-super-sewer-gets-regulatory-approval

Philippa Bond ● 1128d

Qué??? A Happy New Year, Ed!

Michael Ixer ● 1129d

Michael,are you citing the Daily Mail Group now?

Ed Robinson ● 1129d

Nothing as therapeutic as seeing Farage telling the truth for once and seeing the responses to it :-) https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nigel-farage-said-britain-is-broken_uk_63a56e3de4b0ae9de1afcada And realisation (acceptance?) that Brexit isn't a "done deal" ... https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/i-can-see-britain-being-a-member-of-the-eu-again-how-brexit-is-returning-to-uk-politics-2030809?ITO=msn

Michael Ixer ● 1131d

Brexit, deregulation,,rich investors, endangeraning human health,food & financial services,crypto, asylum. What a rant. Barking or what.You need help.

Paul Rolink ● 1132d

Some people still haven't woken up to the fact that privatising water wasn't a good idea so you probably want to add an extra zero on the end Michael W.Ivonne, sewage has been flowing into the Thames every time there is a heavy rainfall. Investment since privatisation has been poor compared to the revenue extracted. Light regulation by Labour & Tory governments has been the norm.The UK were slow to implement cleanup of our beaches and had to be dragged screaming by the EU to do so.https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jun/09/what-has-the-eu-ever-done-for-my-beach"In the 1980s, the British government tried to claim that the beaches of Brighton, Blackpool, Skegness and many other resorts weren’t used for bathing, to avoid dealing with the sewage, condoms and tampons that polluted them. Of the 27 beaches it agreed were used for swimming, nine were too dirty to reach the minimum bathing standard..."

Ed Robinson ● 1132d

"Spoken like a true 'leave' voter who regrets his decision but can't admit it.'There are Brexiteers and there are those that enabled them by not compromising or trying to rerun the referendum when polling showed the electorate would punish any party that tried.If it wasn't for the Brexiteers we would be still in the EU.If it wasn't for the Brexiteer enablers we would had a soft Brexit and things would not have been as good as before but we would not have this disaster either.As for me voting for Brexit - if the offered was for a neutral republic then you would be on to something other than the good life wine!

Ed Robinson ● 1132d

Good morning Ed,I am afraid your argument is flawed.Of course, the UK could have strengthened regulations on every single matter at any time, during and after membership of the EU.EU legislation was approved by unanimity, which included the UK who willingly signed on the dotted line.  The legislation was not imposed by the EU by any stretch of the imagination.As you say, "This is a UK issue and we should never had to rely on EU legislation to protect our environment. But no one from remain could say that could they? Be it leave or remain the UK's institutions are 'best in the world!' They are not and it is not Brexit fault."It is funny, how soon after leaving the EU, our honourable MPs voted to discharge raw sewage into rivers and seas. That is because by privatising Thames Water the infrastructure was so dramatically improved since 1989.No, what has grown dramatically in the UK is greed. And it is not surprising that the greediest were so determined to have Brexit - or better said - avoid ATAD....

Ivonne Holliday ● 1132d

This is complete nonsense. The UK was a member of the EU for nearly 40 years, during which time there was need to strengthen UK-specific environmental legiislation since it was already provided for by EU legislation. We have, just for the moment,  much cleaner air and water as a result.Despite promises made to the contrary during the debates over Brexit, all of a sudden we find environmental legislation is being diluted by the Conservative government (like that what idiot Coffey is doing), contrary to the EU legislation which prevailed hitherto and there is nothing we can do about it.This is a direct consequence of Brexit, not a UK problem, but a result of no longer being in the EU. It could take decades for people in the UK to wake up to the damage now being done.Criticising what Labour or Conservative may do or may not do really misses the point - the EU did it and now it is not being done. Focus on the reality not some imagined political illusion. "Sovereignty" - the inalieanable right to have dirty water. Controlling our own filth etc.

Michael Winstanley ● 1133d

Spoken like a true 'leave' voter who regrets his decision but can't admit it.

Matt Palmer ● 1133d

"Serving members of the current government who supported 'leave' implied at the time of the vote that we could strengthen regulations beyond that of the EU."Sounds like a fact to me. Of course they could. The current government could if it wished and so could a future Labour government. But they didn't in the past and are unlikely to do so in the future."Thames Water was privatised back in 1989"Three terms of Labour saw little improvement in regulation.Holding people to hypotheticals before Brexit really misses the point.This is a UK issue and we should never had to rely on EU legislation to protect our environment. But no one from remain could say that could they? Be it leave or remain the UK's institutions are 'best in the world!' They are not and it is not Brexit fault.

Ed Robinson ● 1133d

Mmm but perhaps "infrasctructe" is a suitably descriptive word for broken infrastructure? :-)

Michael Ixer ● 1133d

Philippa,You say that "one of our biggest problems has to be that we have the joint sewage and rainwater Victorian pipework that was not designed for today."  I do not disagree with this.  However, when Thames Water was privatised back in 1989, raising a paltry £922m for the government, we were promised a utopia of private sector efficiency in which the water industry's new private sector owners would create a first-class water system at much lower prices than the government ever could.Thirty-three years later, not much progress of infrasctructe improvements has been made under privatisation, other than the Thames sewer.Not an outstanding track record....

Ivonne Holliday ● 1133d

Oooops!!Infrastructure!!

Ivonne Holliday ● 1133d

Despite avoiding EU regulations there are still a lot of UK regulations set by Govt that they have to adhere to.  One of our biggest problems has to be that we have the joint sewage and rainwater Victorian pipework which wasn't designed for today.  We could help ourselves a lot if we organised ourselves to make sure that we all had water butts so that we didn't suffer quite so much when there are the increasing number of huge downpours and droughts.We also need to stop putting and flushing so much stuff we shouldn't down the drains!  City to Sea have had some great campaigns including the one about plastic stemmed cotton buds.  There was a prize winning photo of a seahorse hanging onto one several years ago.  Fleur Anderson MP has been campaigning to stop wet wipes being made with plastic/flushed down the loo as they end up on the banks of the Thames.  So much of the plastic and pollution in our oceans travels there from our rivers.https://www.citytosea.org.uk/I read that the Wandsworth food waste collection is being extended.  Hopefully that will help again as will info about what to do with cooking and other oil and reduce the number and frequency of fatbergs the size of double decker buses under our streets.  Builders have also been known to put stuff down the drains including cement!

Philippa Bond ● 1133d

The link re Thames Water - https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/dec/05/thames-water-reports-profits-boom-despite-surge-in-burst-pipes-during-drought

Michael Ixer ● 1134d

The purpose of Brexit was deregulation to benefit rich investors by deregulation. The example of Thames Water's profits shows that the Tory government has disdain for the average voter otherwise TW would be fined 10 or more percent of their turnover for their failures which endanger human health. Just see what happens to food and financial services, etc; perhaps Sam Bankman-Fried will be given asylum in the UK as Sunak is so keen on digital currencies?

Yes, Brexit was about taking back control: by big business and the government's donors and friends; anyone who thought it was about giving control back to voters and improving democracy believed the Brexit lies and was very naive. It's so sad. 

Michael Ixer ● 1134d

Serving members of the current government who supported 'leave' implied at the time of the vote that we could strengthen regulations beyond that of the EU.You can phrase it how you want Ed, the fact is that those people willfully misrepresented their intentions.

Matt Palmer ● 1134d

"It is however and was always unlikely that the UK would exceed EU environment rules given the UK's history."Given the UK's recent history, it is unlikely that the UK could ...Please fill in the dots.

David Ainsworth ● 1134d

I missed out the most important bit - they were fake stainless steel surgical instruments!

Philippa Bond ● 1134d

"'leave' promise was that environmental protections could exceed EU rules once we left"Leave were a cross party organisation, I think the word promise here is incorrect if mentioning 'Leave'. It was not seeking office.Britain Stronger in Europe "Remain" were also a cross party organisation.But it is certainly true that the UK could exceed EU rules if the UK government wanted to.It is however and was always unlikely that the UK would exceed EU environment rules given the UK's history.

Ed Robinson ● 1134d

I remember watching a Commons Committee where Jacob Rees Mogg was saying that we could reduce our standards to those of India.  It didn't seem that long since the Panorama programme that followed the fake stainless steel  stamped with European Economic Community (CEE) logo bought by a London Hospital Trust.  So very expensively trained, highly experienced and highly paid members of our NHS could be easily placed in the position of endangering so much including their patients, their reputations and those of their teams and the Trust by a risky purchase due to the pressure of cost over quality.Right now we have fallen behind the EU who have banned a list of single use plastics but England has only banned some of that list. The other countries of the UK are now ahead of us - again.The waste companies and councils are still waiting for Govt decisions and action so they can make their own decisions on new contracts.The River Thames still has far too much plastic being dumped in it.https://www.citytosea.org.uk/for-forks-sake/

Philippa Bond ● 1135d

Government departments have been suffering cuts for over a decade and we now see the consequences.But you make a very important point about questionable loosening of regulations by Ministers; the very same who promised that environmental protections could exceed EU rules once we left the EU.As you see, not a word they uttered was the truth or, perhaps we should have known better that anything they said really meant the opposite.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1135d

The Environment Agency suffered like many other Govt departments from all the cuts made.  There were also some questionable loosening of regulations by Ministers.

Philippa Bond ● 1135d

It's partially a brexit issue because part of the 'leave' promise was that environmental protections could exceed EU rules once we left. Some people chose to believe that.More fool them.

Matt Palmer ● 1136d

Before I even considered all the complexities of Brexit/Remain it was obvious that the UK has little legal protection for its citizens never mind the environment.  This isn't really a Brexit issue it is just an acknowledgement of how crap our democracy is that it has so many holes that the EU plugged. We haven't even got a written constitution.People are seeing the UK for what it is for the first time. It needs reform but it is very unlikely to happen after all it's 'best in the world!' - sewage and pollution no doubt!

Ed Robinson ● 1136d

One after another all the reasons some voted for Brexit to avoid become clearer.

Philippa Bond ● 1136d

I think we all know that companies are happily polluting our rivers. My point was that up until Brexit we had a legal obligation to sort it out before 2027, that's now been pushed back by 36 years.

Matt Palmer ● 1136d

https://fishlegal.net/2022/06/24/her-majestys-cheese-supplier-fined-1-52-million-for-environmental-crimes/#

Philippa Bond ● 1136d

https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/62/environmental-audit-committee/news/160246/chemical-cocktail-of-sewage-slurry-and-plastic-polluting-english-rivers-puts-public-health-and-nature-at-risk/The lack of regulation has allowed a perfect storm of different water pollution problems to be created and grow.I was extremely disappointed to discover that a well known cheese company had been given a record breaking more than a million pound fine for polluting their local river.  So not just sewage and plastic pollution problems!

Philippa Bond ● 1137d

"pushed back from 2027 to 2063."I suppose that they expect us to develop natural immunity by then?

David Ainsworth ● 1137d

Disgusting!

Ivonne Holliday ● 1138d