Forum Topic

Too late, chum

"Britons think it was the wrong decision to vote to leave the European Union by 56% to 32%"Yougov yesterday:-https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/11/17/one-five-who-voted-brexit-now-think-it-was-wrong-dCan you see what it is yet?

David Ainsworth ● 1257d39 Comments

It is as horrifying as it is frightening!

Ivonne Holliday ● 1250d

When the IoD, CIPD and the TUC among others in a diverse number of organisations are joining together and writing to the Business Secretary to halt the bill to revoke EU regulations you know the government has got it horribly wrong!https://www.bbc.com/news/business-63741465The letter, with the full list of organisations who signed it:https://www.iod.com/news/eu-and-trade/letter-to-the-business-secretary-withdrawal-of-the-retained-eu-law-revocation-and-reform-bill/

Michael Ixer ● 1250d

You're welcome, Richard. I've not worked it out which is why I always try and use links to Flickr; it seems to scale it depending on the data size of the image, so if one posts a low resolution picture it shows in a smaller size. The software doesn't seem to try an fit the picture into the size of a post in the same way as, say, Instagram or Facebook does.

Michael Ixer ● 1251d

Thanks for that, Michael: I don't know why it always reproduces my images on such a huge scale!.

Richard Carter ● 1251d

I had to raster that in Flickr to fit it on my tablet screen!https://www.flickr.com/gp/m-j-i/2T4eJyh6o2Shouldn't the bus be upside down? ☹️

Michael Ixer ● 1251d

And a clue was that the 2016 Brexit vehicle was a bus that tried to look like a powerful, fast locomotive.

David Ainsworth ● 1251d

A gentle reminder - from almost 6 years ago:

Richard Carter ● 1251d

Is there data yet for the lower wages?Wages for many were not high and some sectors have seen increases.In fact I'm fairly sure low wage have been an issue for decades. Seems some remainders only care about low wages post Brexit?? In or out if your tying your ship the the Nato anchor you are going to sink. Buying inflated priced second hand Russian oil makes no sense to anyone but a politician.It's not really taking back control more handing over the wheel to someone else!

Ed Robinson ● 1252d

Two days later and still not a peep on the supposed Brexit benefits. I'll help you out, Sue, with this comment from the Times:"Show us the Brexit benefits? They can't because there aren't any other than in their own deluded imagination. What they can show is the Brexit failures: a 4% productivity drop, 15% trade drop, 6% food price increase, lower wages, workforce shortages, the highest inflation in G7, a trade deal with Australia which even the man who negotiated it admitted is a bit rubbish, no prospect of deal with the US, investors running a mile, Paris over taking Britain as a financial centre, distabilizing the Good Friday agreement..... (feel free to add to the list).And the sooner they start facing up to the truth the better."Not much chance of that happening here!

Richard Carter ● 1253d

It's interesting that if on looks at EU membership and the association of non EU members of the customs union or single market, or those aspiring for EU membership that the UK, aside from Northern Ireland (and possibly Scotland which would aspire to be an EU member if it could), stands out with alongside Belarus as the only country that's fully or wants to be a third party country to the EU? Seems a little odd? EU Customs Union: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_single_market European Single Market: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_single_market Candidate and potential candidates for enlarging the EU https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_enlargement_of_the_European_Union

Michael Ixer ● 1255d

Why is there no edit facility!It's complex: all the problems are real while the benefits are imaginary 😶

Michael Ixer ● 1255d

It's complex: all the problems are realbwhile the benefits are imaginary 😶

Michael Ixer ● 1255d

Well, one way in of silencing us, Sue, would be for you to give us a list of the manyfold (lol!) benefits of Brexit. I'm eagerly waiting for your list...

Richard Carter ● 1255d

Stuck record syndrome. However Richard isn't the only one afflicted, there are two others in particular who also have it.

Sue Hammond ● 1255d

No idea, Andy. It can't happen on the old version of the site, but on the new one, which is what I used to put up the image, it seems to be a problem.

Richard Carter ● 1255d

System error ? Or the usual repeat, repeat , repeat .

Andy Pike ● 1255d

You said it.

Barbara Stevens ● 1255d

Well, I thought I was trying to make a reasonable point, but for the system to upload it 4 times was ridiculous!

Richard Carter ● 1255d

And even Piers Moron recognizes the hopeless truth about Brexit... 

Richard Carter ● 1255d

And even Piers Moron recognizes the hopeless truth about Brexit... 

Richard Carter ● 1255d

And even Piers Moron recognizes the hopeless truth about Brexit... 

Richard Carter ● 1255d

And even Piers Moron recognizes the hopeless truth about Brexit... 

Richard Carter ● 1255d

That's an interesting article by Andrew Neil: I never expected to read, in the Daily Mail of all papers, that "Brexit is a busted flush"! But the Sunday Times piece is oure cakeism: speculating (on no basis whatsoever) that the EU would accept our free trade terms but without freedom of movement. That's simply a nonstarter.

Richard Carter ● 1255d

Brexit has certainly created a mess. It's not going to be easily resolved. I think Starmer's problem is he's trying to support things (like Brexit) that he doesn't really believe in. Perhaps he saw what happened to Corbyn who threw his weight behind what he believed in but got thrashed in the 2019 election?

Michael Ixer ● 1255d

Michael,If you could me another policy Starmer believes in I might buy that. Personally I can't see any difference between Starmer followers and Brexit followers. They both seem faith based to me.I'm still not sure what the Brexit dream was, they couldn't even put zero percent VAT on insulation.There was talk of trade deals but now it seems they are limited to US approved countries. Germany exports from memory 3 times the amount the UK does to China and twice the amount to India and that's while in the EU.Seems noone else can either.https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11445479/The-week-Rishi-Sunak-Jeremy-Hunt-killed-dream-Brexit-dividend-stone-dead.html

Ed Robinson ● 1255d

The Times article is behind Murdoch's paywall but I think I can infer what it probably says from the headlines mentioning Switzerland - didn't I refer to the Swiss recently?!Strarmer is treading a tight rope trying not to upset the Brexit voters that he wants to get back to Labour and trying to keep Remainers onside. I suspect both approaches will chip away at the poor Brexit deal moving closer to a treaty based single market approach - then maybe other events might in time trigger a, well, let's join the EEA, or EU. (A strong Scottish push for independence or a move towards Irish unity as unionists become a smaller minority; I don't know, I'm just speculating.) But a multiple treaty based approach reduces a lot of friction while keeping the Euro and Schengen at bay?Do many businesses really want different regulations and stands between the EU and UK, particularly if EU regulations apply to NI? Surely, if the GDPR applies to EU customers and citizens - and many of those EU citizens live in the UK with settled status - then I'm not sure having different rules in the UK helps; let's face it Mr Schrems has caused enough issues with the data exports to the US; now it looks like a US/EU data deal is imminent perhaps he'll look for a new challenge. I'm guessing there are many other standards where manufacturers and services providers would find it easier just to stick with EU standards and the CE mark unless they're looking to reduce their product quality?

Michael Ixer ● 1255d

If this is true it would be a game changer at the next election.https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/britain-mulls-swiss-style-ties-with-brussels-nr0f7fw2kStarmer's latest position:https://labour.org.uk/press/keir-starmer-sets-out-labours-5-point-plan-to-make-brexit-work/

Ed Robinson ● 1255d

Slightly off topic, but it is connected to the power and sanity of EU regulators; will they pull the plug on what seems to be an out of control Twitter?https://www.euractiv.com/section/media/news/twitter-fate-in-doubt-as-employees-defy-musk-ultimatum/

Michael Ixer ● 1255d

No doubt Michael,Coming out of the EU has shown that many of the UK's institutions are not fit for purpose.They were not fit before Brexit but coming out of the EU has really hightled this.Brexit has caused direct damage but the damage has been magnified IMO. Oddly enough these institutions are looked upon by both sides positively despite the evidence proving otherwise.If we were a modern democracy, we probably would not have got in such mess in the first place.

Ed Robinson ● 1255d

Probably like many of you, I voted Remain but have friends who voted Leave. I still socialise with them, because they are good people. If Brexit is raised as a topic of conversation, their response has shifted from ' Well there will be some pain on the road to sovereign independence, but it will be worth it ', to ' Well we might be suffering inflation/devalued currency/unemployment/reduced stock-market etc., but the E.U., France, Germany is suffering, (or will SOON be suffering), worse than us. This division will outlive all of us.

Bill Christie ● 1255d

In my opinion it helped alleviate a number, Northern Ireland, Scottish devolution/Independence, barriers to travelling in Europe, doing business with and in Europe, ...

Michael Ixer ● 1255d

"Being in the he EU hid lots of real issues"No it didn't. However, membership was often used as a scapegoat, or a way to shorten a pointlessly long argument about something we were going to do anyway. Such as have immigrants.

Michael Winstanley ● 1255d

I am not sure it would be almost impossible to rejoin the EU.  It will, however, be so and avoid joining the euro and the Schengen area and forget about the veto.The problem with May's draft agreement was that, for Brexiteers, it did not go far enough and for Remainers, the compromise was not favourable enough.  I think the divide of Brexiteers and Remainers will continue for a long time to come.And yes, being in the EU hid lots of real issues.  Such as the government hiding behind the "EU said this, it said that" and not utilizing the right of sovereign state to reduce immigration or set specific requirements.  It was all in its scope and it chose not to do so.But I do hope we will be able to rejoin the EU sooner rather than later.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1256d

"It would be almost impossible to rejoin the EU"Assuming that the EU still exists and they would want us back."We could have joined the EEA in 2016 n order to secure a soft exit from the EU. That ship has sailed"That would have been a sensible compromise but it wasn't just the Brexiters - lot's of Remainers refused to compromise.Not to mention Starmer deviation from Labour's soft Brexit policy. You won't be able get any sensible policies on Europe this decade under the two main parties.Being in the he EU hid lots of real issues.Yes in theory the UK could distribute wealth around the nation more efficiently. In theory it could also look after the environment and legislate for minimum holiday pay etc.But the UK's record of doing such things is pretty poor and likely to remain so unfortunately.

Ed Robinson ● 1256d

While I agree it wouldn't be easy and that the UK will suffer the fallout of Brexit for one or two decades I wouldn't say anything is impossible. For a start resolving the Northern Ireland situation is going to be extremely difficult. Sinn Fein don't want a border on the Irish island (and just image if they gained the majority both in NI and Eire); the DUP don't want one in the Irish see. What do we do, have Schrödingers border and select it each time based on destination? Keep in mind the Irish Republic isn't in Schengen but is in the British Isles Common Travel area. Channel travel is a mess because services like Eurostar weren't designed for EU third country checks. Just image if Scotland does gain independence, joins the EU along with membership of Schengen and the Euro, do we relocate Hadrian's wall? One has to agree with the Euro if rejoining but only actually join if certain criteria are met: the Czech Republic, Hungary and Poland haven't yet completed that. So in two decades if Scotland and possibly NI depart from the UK things could look a lot different. Yes, the EEA would have been a better soft Brexit but we had negotiators following ideology rather than using common sense. Yes, the single market isn't an organisation as such but is often considered as a separate entity and my understanding is some non EEA members such as Switzerland have special treaty arrangements that link into the single market. Agreed it's not going to be straightforward but these things are negotiable because there are a number of areas that need tidying up and other things that could change the UK's - or England's if the UK disintegrates - thinking. I probably won't see it but I wouldn't be surprised if the UK was using the Euro and a member of Schengen in 30-40 years time, assuming Putin hasn't nuked us all!

Michael Ixer ● 1256d

It would be almost impossible to rejoin the EU. We had secured a golden position in the EU, enjoying all the benefits but standing back from some of the risks. The route for a new member includes membership of Schengen, membership of the Euro and no veto like we had before. On these terms,it would be quite difficult to justify joining - they are substantially worse than those we gave up.As to the "single market", it does not exist as an organisation to join. Without EU membership the only other way in to it is as a member of the EEA, which would require its other members to accept us. It would also require the UK's knuckle draggers to re-embrace freedom of movement - a pretty tall order.We could have joined the EEA in 2016 in order to secure a soft exit from the EU. That ship has sailed.Those that crafted the exit from the EU have made sure there is no way back in. We are condemned to suffer the damage for a generation.

Michael Winstanley ● 1256d

My prediction was always that we'd be looking to rejoin, if not the EU, the single market, within a decade …

Michael Ixer ● 1257d

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001f8qf/question-time-2022-17112022

Philippa Bond ● 1257d

From the IFS
IFS director Paul Johnson said the country is in for “a long, hard, unpleasant journey” with the tax burden set to stay at the highest level in the country’s history. “The truth is we just got a lot poorer,” he said. “We are in for a long, hard, unpleasant journey; a journey that has been made more arduous than it might have been by a series of economic own-goals.

Matt Palmer ● 1257d