Forum Topic

Cyclists

Cyclists might need number plates under strict new rules.

Barbara Stevens ● 1266d41 Comments

Yes plates. Sticking with highway code. Monitoring. PCNs. Just the same as cars

Marc Blanchard ● 1249d

Hmm.  You need to read more and different articles in newspapers and not just sensational headlines!https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/aug/30/why-do-some-people-hate-cyclists-so-much?

Philippa Bond ● 1252d

What do you think is needed, Marc? Surely not number plates for cyclists, as even Yapps has withdrawn that daft idea.

Richard Carter ● 1256d

Excellent news. That is badly needed.

Marc Blanchard ● 1256d

That's brilliant - where space can be made.  So many pavements are so narrow.  Just like the bike hangars placed on roads they could also be.  Where to put them should be able to be gained from GPS.  I was initially surprised that somewhere like Oxford which already had so many bikes already chose to have Mobikes and now e-scooters - and I've already seen two people riding on one e-scooter there!  They also have a lot of buses and coaches as they have the Park & Ride outside Oxford.  Last time I was there I only went as far as the Botanical Gardens which were absolutely stunning.  I think I prefer them to Kew and if you are a member at Kew you can get in free.

Philippa Bond ● 1260d

Somebody, somewhere, got something very wrong!!!"Every year in the UK there are 2–9 deaths due to anaphylaxis from bee or wasp stings."https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ta246/documents/venom-anaphylaxis-immunotherapy-pharmalgen-final-scope2#:~:text=Every%20year%20in%20the%20UK,from%20bee%20or%20wasp%20stings.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1261d

Richard Carter ● 1261d

Hire bikes and scooters can be stored neatly as this Park for scooters in Oxford shows.https://flic.kr/p/2nFKERoI guess the numbers on electric hire bikes and scooters are really asset tags so the hire companies can keep track of expensive equipment? (Like this picture taken last night in my experience the scooters in Oxford always seem to be nearly parked and also ridden in a responsible way.)

Michael Ixer ● 1261d

https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/roads-and-transport/transport/active-modes-of-travel/cycling/rent-cycle-storage-space/

Philippa Bond ● 1261d

The hire bikes are all have large registration numbers on them and have GPS which presumably no longer works when the battery runs down or maybe whoever is supposed to can't be bothered to herd them back.  Bike frames are numbered. When you buy a bike it is sensible to make a note of all those numbers and have a photo ready in case you have to circulate it fast if it disappears.You can register your bike on this website:www.thebikeregister.comIf the police find your bike you will need to be able to prove that it is yours - so need all that ID info.Don't buy one without having researched the best and safest ways to lock it and store it and where not to.  Thieves of course continually modify their methods eg Don't lock your bike to a bike stand that has any tape around the rail as it may have been pre-sawn and taped so that any bike there can be easily and quickly stolen.The London Cycling Campaign has lots of info for cyclists:www.lcc.org.uk including routes, locks, offers and insurance.

Philippa Bond ● 1262d

It feels to me like another way to make money… very hard to enforce

Paul Beer ● 1262d

In Australia, we call cyclists - TEMPORY AUSTRALIANS (think about in city traffic)

Patrick Barrs ● 1263d

Matt. Isn't bicycle insurance sometimes included in home insurance policies? I'm not sure public liability insurance is mandatory for self employed sole traders? (aside from the fact it might be advisable.) If they're contracted to a limited company it might be a condition of the contract to have it? It's an interesting point; I believe Uber has insurance that covers customers but I don't know if that's in addition to individual drivers having their own insurance? 

Michael Ixer ● 1265d

Aren't delivery bikers all 'self employed' and therefore need public liability cover? I have no idea but I agree it would seem sensible for them to have it.

Matt Palmer ● 1265d

Other countries especially pro-cycling ones manage perfectly well without number plates by using old fashioned technology called police.Of course the UK could build a world class cycle trace and fine system based on mobile phone data :)I do think delivery cyclists should have insurance if only for their protection should an accident occur. I'm not sure what protection they get at the moment.The same for commercial cargo bikes - are they insured?

Ed Robinson ● 1265d

I agree with you and it will get much more interesting!  If that is the word to use!I say this because 91,000 civil servants will be made redundant and, if the system as it stands cannot cope, well...I do not know what the crime statistics relating to bicycles are in Oxford or Cambridge.  But in London, they are sky high.  Should a regional policy be developed?

Ivonne Holliday ● 1265d

These posts seem to relate to the top end of the market (for example, Barbara talks about shops). Forgetting London,  has anyone thought about all the bikes in Oxford and Cambridge - hundreds, thousands - often sold from graduating students to new undergraduates, perhaps shared between house mates, cohabiting couples, family members? What's the proposal for managing all that? Then all over the country there's thousands (millions?) of bikes already being used that would need to be retrofitted with identify and registered? Will the government pay for that if it wants to encourage bike use for short journeys? An interesting logistics problem. The DVLA is struggling with driving licences, the passport office is was behind its targets, ... it'll need another IT system ... a decade to develop it with delays and budget overruns? Perhaps another project for Baroness Dido Harding after the Track and Trace one?

Michael Ixer ● 1265d

Total incompetence?  "You might think that, but I could not possibly comment", as Francis Urquhart said in the House of Cards.A system of identification of bicycles must be found, particularly as their theft is growing exponentially or thefts/burglaries carried out by perpetrators who escape on bicycles. If we consider that we all live in a society where ID is a must, why should bicycles be exempt?

Ivonne Holliday ● 1265d

Michael. I think it is displacement activity by Grant Shapps as he angles for a new Cabinet job from the Blessed Liz. He can then blame someone else if they do (it was ruled out in 2018 as unworkable and expensive), and if they don’t he can moan that they didn’t.Nick

Nicholas Evans ● 1265d

I see, from a quote in the Guardian "The Mail said this was a reference to possible number plates or other identification for bikes". So this is an idea Mr Schapps had, possibly made up on the hoof and, as has been said by others, a good distraction from the current leadership and economic chaos. Apparently his own officials were puzzled as this idea had previously been rejected as impractical and counter productive,and contradicted other statements he'd made. Total incompetence? (Can one have degrees of incompetence?)https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/17/grant-shapps-bike-licence-plates-proposal-a-strange-and-pointless-idea

Michael Ixer ● 1265d

Funny how people who ride bikes want people who drive cars to keep at 20 mph, but don't keep at 20 mph themselves. We have to keep our distance from bikes, but bikes can come on your inner side and bang your wing mirror. It's one rule for one, will be funny if they ban all bikes in the ULEZ zone if their too old.

Barbara Stevens ● 1265d

.. and, I'd have added that if it was my suggestion, "Take another two swigs if they say 'They don't even pay road tax'."

Richard Carter ● 1265d

The best comment on this stupidity is in a post under the Guardian website article:Cycling Article Drinking Game:Every time someone mentions that they/their maiden aunt/their cockapoo/their goldfish was almost "mown down" by a cyclist "last week", take a swig. Take two swigs if they start the sentence with "as a cyclist".

Richard Carter ● 1265d

Richard, just get your number plate when you have to and stop being a baby having a tantrum. How hard is it when you buy a bike to have a number plate on it, if you sell it the number plate goes with it. So easy to Insure, the shop can have a Registration System, how hard is that. Even MOT's go through now on a computer.

Barbara Stevens ● 1265d

I'm not sure how practicable number plates on bikes are. I suppose in this day of GPS, RFID, Cellular, Bluetooth, etc devices then some sort of electronic "plate" might be viable? They could always be read at a distance? Perhaps they could have camera enforcement as well? Image the revenue generated by those cycling over the Woodlands Way railway bridge :-) And if a bike isn't fitted with one just confiscate it until the rider pays a fine and arranged to have one fitted or repaired?To be honest, if cyclists are courteous I'm fairly relaxed about them cycling on pavements given London's traffic. What I object to is cyclists coming up behind me and expecting me to give them priority, sometimes even by ringing a bell (although I think most don't comply with the law to fit one). Otherwise I don't find them a nuisance, I think in London cars are a bigger problem …

Michael Ixer ● 1265d

Hello Carl,I am aware that cyclists are free from speed limits which I disagree with entirely.  All speed limits, or most at least, are there on safety grounds - and these, by definition, should apply to all.When I was 6 years old, crossing a quiet residential road with my mother one evening, I was walking slightly slightly behind her but still holding her hand.  Suddenly, I was flying in the air and was really hurt when I crashed onto the road.  The culprit?  You have guessed it, a cyclist.  He was gone before I crashed onto the road.  I think it is safe to say he was travelling at speed to fling a 6 year old into the air.... Based on this painful experience, I disagree with allowing cyclists to travel at any speed they wish, even if they are training to participate in the Tour de France.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1265d

Hi Ivonne I'm not defending cyclists who ride dangerously or break the law, but legally a cyclist is doing nothing wrong by simply exceeding the speed limit on a road. The speed limits do not apply to cyclists, so they are unable to break them. There are certain exceptions (e.g. Royal Parks), but on the whole a cyclist is not "speeding" when they are traveling at a speed greater than the limit for cars. motorcycles, lorries, etc. It's a common misconception that some cyclists break the speed limit. I'm not saying I agree with it, just that it's incorrect.

Carl Broadley ● 1265d

The reaction of Edmund King, the president of the Automobile Association is significant: he's said that “It is in the interests of all road users, and indeed our environment, that as a society we encourage more use of active travel, such as walking and cycling, and also the transition to zero emission vehicles. Introducing more barriers to slow the take-up of safe cycling would be a retrograde step. What we really need is better infrastructure for cycling so that some of the present-day issues on the roads are removed.”Rather more measured than the usual knee-jerk stuff we get on here and online more generally.

Richard Carter ● 1265d

Hello Richard,I know cyclist have no speedometers, but I do believe they do know they are speeding, particularly when they overtake cars in a 20mph zone.....I have been overtaken, and startled, by cyclists coming from nowhere and overtaking me like lightning when I am driving at 19mph.  I say startled, because checking mirrors as you do, you do not see a cyclist and suddenly they are overtaking you.  This has happened quite a few times on roads like Wendolyn Avenue, Westleigh Avenue, Chartfield Avenue and Oxford Road.  I am mentioning some side roads but this happens on main roads like URR and LRR.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1265d

"Cyclists who ignore the Highway Code and the safety of pedestrians are not a non-issue."Of course they're not a non-issue, I wasn't saying that at all, but pointing out that a half-witted proposal by a minister who was living on borrowed time was something that (a) would not work because it was totally disproportionate to the problem presented and (b) would never happen anyway because it was clearly an attempt to rescue a failing career.

Richard Carter ● 1265d

I don't know what happened there :( The paragraphs I quoted were:
The Government has no plans to introduce any such requirements for cyclists
The Government considers that the costs of a formal registration system for cycle ownership would outweigh the benefits. The safety case for such a system is not as strong as that for drivers since, by contrast with motorised vehicles, cycles involved in collisions on the highway are highly unlikely to cause serious injury to other road users.
Furthermore, the National Travel Survey indicates that a very high proportion of people who cycle regularly also hold a driving licence. The absence of a licensing system does not prevent a cyclist from being liable for their actions. The police and ultimately the courts, can take into account all the circumstances of an incident and judge accordingly.
Full response is here — https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/585474

Carl Broadley ● 1265d

I completely support anything that helps reduce the number of cyclists jumping red lights or riding dangerously. I say that as a cyclist (and driver and pedestrian) who is regularly frustrated by seeing (some) cyclists break the law. However there was a petition raised on the parliament website for a licencing system and visible ID for cyclists. The petition received over 10 thousand signatures meaning the government would respond. The government responded in December 2021 saying: "The Government has no plans to introduce any such requirements for cyclists." ... "The Government considers that the costs of a formal registration system for cycle ownership would outweigh the benefits. The safety case for such a system is not as strong as that for drivers since, by contrast with motorised vehicles, cycles involved in collisions on the highway are highly unlikely to cause serious injury to other road users." ... "Furthermore, the National Travel Survey indicates that a very high proportion of people who cycle regularly also hold a driving licence. The absence of a licensing system does not prevent a cyclist from being liable for their actions. The police and ultimately the courts, can take into account all the circumstances of an incident and judge accordingly." https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/585474 So I'm sticking with my idea that this is yet another dead cat story.

Carl Broadley ● 1265d

This morning I was crossing URR at the pedestrian lights controlled crossing near East Putney station and the small Waitrose. Cars and lorries stopped and I felt safe making my way across. I was about 4/5ths of the way across when I had to stop because, despite the red light,  a cyclist powered through right in front of me. I felt shaken because it was quite a near miss, though I  should be used to it by now because this is not the first time I've experienced this.I worry about Guide Dogs who, as soon as they hear the beep, stride out into the road, as they should be able to do.Cyclists who ignore the Highway Code and the safety of pedestrians are not a non-issue.

Elizabeth Balsom ● 1265d

Has any country on the planet managed to introduce something like this? Because if not there's not a chance this gov has the ability to set up and implement it.

Matt Palmer ● 1265d

Of course it's wrong for people to speed, run red lights and generally act as hooligans on the roads, but would number plates make any difference? It's hugely expensive and administratively difficult, which is why Switzerland, for example, scrapped their registration system in 2012. And it hasn't done much good with motorists, has it? Finally, the problem for cyclists who can exceed 20mph (not me, except downhill with a following wind) is: how do they know what speed they're travelling at? Very few have an active speedometer.Ivonne, the whole thing is a non-issue, just a silly distraction from a soon-to-be axed minister in a zombie government, providing clickbait for the more Neanderthal Daily Mail readers.

Richard Carter ● 1265d

Yes, I imagine that number plates for cyclists could be a very expensive exercise, particularly as the government is planning to axe 91,000 civil servants.....But I certainly support this as well as expecting cyclists to respect speed limits and red lights.  I know that this will get angry reactions from various people.Yes Richard, the cyclists a the most vulnerable from a vehicle's point of view.  Pedestrians more so.For this reason on its own, the level of responsibility for their own safety should fall on individual cyclists and not on other road users.  Is this a distraction story?  More than likely but this is something that has been asked for for a long time.  Number plates would be an excellent vehicle to identify riders, particularly as the spate of robberies carried out by robbers who disappear on bicycles has increased enormously.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1265d

Agreed but motor vehicles are insured etc. Just plugging the gap to ensure the minority of idiots who do Kill and injure might feel the retribution due to them for their recklessness. Surely we all want all bad drivers car bike motorised scooter etc to be governed by the same laws.

Andy Pike ● 1266d

The administrative overhead of this would be enormous. I can't see it happening. Smells like a distraction story designed to divert attention away from the government's current inaction on the cost of living crisis. Convenient how it appeared at the same time as the latest inflation and wage figures.

Carl Broadley ● 1266d

A simple chart helps put this nonsense by Yapps in perspective:

Richard Carter ● 1266d

none of the things you have listed have got anything to do with speed other than going faster than 20mph and i doubt i've ever managed that fast on my bike!

Matt Palmer ● 1266d

Also no faster than 20 mph the same as cars , so no overtaking, banging cars wing mirror, swerving in front of cars, no two abreast and talking while cycling, no mobile phone usage.

Barbara Stevens ● 1266d