Forum Topic

And there it is

"Millionaire Conservative leadership hopeful Rishi Sunak spends thousands building a private pool at his £1.5million home while his Yorkshire constituents could lose public baths as energy bills bite"https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/rishi-sunak-builds-private-pool-27619489The local pool "faces a FOUR HUNDRED PER CENT hike in bills, taking gas and electricity costs from £63,600 to £315,000 per year - with no prospect of any government help.Only household consumers are protected by Ofgem’s energy price cap to keep tariffs down – community leisure facilities and schools face the same surging bills as businesses.It comes in a week when British Gas owner Centrica reported a five-fold increase in profits, to £1.34billion."

David Ainsworth ● 1282d27 Comments

Mentioning Grenfell, one of the many problems in that building was caused by the poor installation of individual gas boilers with pipe work that punctured the fire proof compartmentation between the floors and into the flats. On the Alton Estate I think they ran gas pipes up the outside walls when they installed the individual boilers. Thinking ahead, I guess there'll be a move away from individual gas boilers and back to communal systems in blocks of flats, which might be OK in new developments but probably difficult and expensive to retrofit into existing blocks.

Peter Evans ● 1281d

Andy,I agree I would think there would be zero chance of converting any block to communal heating if there are leaseholders.Legislation would have to be passed to force new builds to incorporate it going forward.Existing communal heating blocks could possibly be upgraded if at zero cost or very low cost when their heating system need replacing to include solar or heat pumps if possible. Even then, as you say getting everyone to agree even on small simple things is a mayor achievement. Upgrading housing will be very slow. Possibly local and central government buildings may offer a faster route to lower the country's fuel use. Schools, hospitals, leisure centres etc.

Ed Robinson ● 1281d

Ed efficient, modern communal systems may well be the way to go. but a retro fit in Council blocks not designed for communal systems will be hugely expensive and will of necessity take years to install.there would be an interesting point or two for consultation.1. as a leaseholder I have spent a fortune decorating and modernising my home now you want to come in and run surface pipework throughout my property disturbing all my work. can I refuse the works? can you force me to have your system within my legally demised property? if I have it who pays? my lease says all rechargeable works must be necessary and not an improvement. Are these works necessary? if so how much will it cost me? if it is not deemed necessary under the lease why are you doing it?that is only the tip of the iceberg regarding potential leasehold  consultation and costs.Remember with leasehold consultation the lease is the legal document that sets the parameters for who pays, stepping outside the lease is a very risky business and increase leaseholder costs by 20%.items covered by the lease is non vat chargeable for local authorities due to their tax position. but step outside the lease and 20% vat is applied.you may remember after Grenfell the Council wanted to install fire prevention systems in its tower blocks and the leaseholders objected to the costs and the matter has been on the back burner for 5 years? the same arguments will no doubt be made for retro fitting communal heating as were made for retro fitting fire systems.Glad I don't have to chair these meetings anymore or come up with the answers. it will be a nightmare for all concerned .

Andy Pike ● 1281d

just a little bit more information on the Wandsworth communal heating.so far this financial year and for all last financial year residents (leaseholders and tenants) on the communal systems have paid ZERO £  for the fuel element. this was based on utilising the surplus within the account and was forecast still to leave a healthy surplus for next year.however these charges were set in January for implementation in April and are due to be reviewed in September.I suspect significant increases will need to be applied at that time.  If the subsidy is applied simply to utility accounts the people on communal systems will have a double benefit but will like everyone else face significant increase after September.that Committee paper will make interesting reading when it comes out.

Andy Pike ● 1281d

Communal heating and hot water makes green and economic sense especially compared with individual combi-boilers that need servicing every year. Regulations on gas boiler vents have got stricter over time.If they could supplement the communal heating with heat pumps or solar panels (electric or water heaters) that would be ideal.I'm not sure how green Putney Leisure Centre is with various black smoke coming from the top.Then you have the new temporary/permanent building at Queen Mary's Hospital using diesel generators. (Probably due to Labour's PFI deal).You would think local & central government buildings would be first to be upgraded as they use more energy.

Ed Robinson ● 1281d

David, is that what caused the Iceland financial crisis in 2008?

Michael Ixer ● 1281d

"Oh, to live in Iceland where the hot water just comes out of the ground ..."Won't that destroy the roots of the magic money tree?

David Ainsworth ● 1281d

Oh, to live in Iceland where the hot water just comes out of the ground ...

Michael Ixer ● 1281d

Absolutely and a number have been done on that basis. York Road estate went from a single estate wide boiler house to block boilers which are more efficient. Cant remember the details but the water flowing out loses considerable heat as it goes round the estate before returning to the boiler house.Alton Estate was an absolute nightmare. The whole estate ( apart from Hyacibth) served by only 2 boiler houses with miles of underground pipework.

Andy Pike ● 1281d

Thanks. I was thinking partly of the large water mains, and how a burst there might affect things. I gather that the hot water supply pipes are more likely to corrode and burst. Possibly a case for smaller one-block boilers, rather than multi-block?

David Ainsworth ● 1281d

But as previously stated they will still probably have a gas meter ( for cooking) and an electricity meter so should still get the subsidy payment through their utility account.

Andy Pike ● 1281d

Martine. It was a slightly flippant comment, more of an observation? I wasn't looking to blame specific voters. Privatisations happened over two decades ago and the only one that seems to have worked reasonably well is the telecommunications one - that's probably luck because of the vast evolution in the technologies as the Internet has expanded in use (when I did my telecoms & networking post grad dip back in the early 90s no one was talking about VoIP replacing the PSTN). Anyway, I think all the Wandsworth boroughs now have Labour MPs?As Barbara has indicated there will be many leaseholders living in older, private so called mansion blocks (not necessarily luxury flats) which often have central boiler systems where these costs are just added to service charges and there will be no help fro the government as things stand. I wonder how many of those vote Labour?

Michael Ixer ● 1281d

But you very rarely get a gas main failure. The underground bursts were/ are generally in the pipes carrying the hot water around the estates to deliver the heating and hot water.

Andy Pike ● 1281d

"remember one burst under ground equals hundreds if not thousands of households with no heating and hot water."Wouldn't all the individual properties with their own individual heating systems be fed off the same one burst main? I guess that it depends upon the number of blocks being served. And where the burst occurs.

David Ainsworth ● 1282d

As I said if the rebate comes through the utility account then no reason why those on Council communal systems shouldn't get it as they will have a metered account for electricity direct from the supplier ie non commercial and in some cases a gas meter too.Probably not in the high rise system builds where gas was removed post Ronan Point.I see no reason why these residents should not benefit and it will be the same for tenants and leaseholders.

Andy Pike ● 1282d

“Still, you get what you vote for” Blaming the voters, especially the ones living on local authority estates, isn’t really a good vote winner, especially for the Labour Party.  

Martine Guy ● 1282d

Obviously not, Martine. Not sure it's a deliberate move but an unintended consequence of manipulating the retail energy market because privatisation of utility companies has failed? It's another worry for leaseholders following the cladding issue cause by inadequate building regulations. Still, you get what you vote for.

Michael Ixer ● 1282d

On the actual cost of heating and hot water it is the same for both tenant and leaseholders and based on a calculation the size of the property and the communal boiler usage. Heating and hot water charges are not housing benifitable.Repairs to the systems are charged to leaseholders on the same calculation basis with tenants charges made to the housing revenue account in the same way any repairs costs are funded.If retro fitting of meters were to happen it would, I suspect, be deemed 'necessary'under the terms of the lease with the tenant element being recovered from the HRA . 20 years ago Wandsworyh had something like 20,000 properties with co.mhbal heating. This has been reduced over the years when major renewals are due and residents ( tenant and leaseholders) have been balloted for their preference replacement.The Mayor and the climate lobby would like all estates and certainly new build estate to have communal systems that are metered.Turning the clock back on,say,the Alton estate would be at a huge cost a d remember one burst under ground equals hundreds if not thousands of households with no heating and hot water. Whereas an individual boiler failure affects a single household.

Andy Pike ● 1282d

Several Wandsworth council blocks had individual central heating boilers fitted in each flat when their original communal system began to fail, so residents had more control of their energy use and costs, and will now benefit from any cap or rebate. Retrofitting individual metering into traditional communal systems isn't easy or cheap. Wandsworth might have some scheme to protect their council tenants, or housing benefit might cover it, but probably not be able to help their leaseholders.  Particularly tough on any who took advantage of Right to Buy.

Peter Evans ● 1282d

Re: the original post, is it acceptable for an incredibly rich man’s swimming pool to be heated at a domestic rate that is cheaper than the commercial rate paid by a person living on a local authority estate for their communal heating and hot water?

Martine Guy ● 1282d

Undoubtedly care homes will increase their charges as their costs increase as with ang business. My understanding is that individual residents do not have individual accounts for gas and electricity and therefore unlikely to receive the subsidy direct. Whether there will be any special arrangements I suppose we'll have to see. But the form of tenancy is somewhat different to a standard tenancy and charges will be levied based on the terms of the legal agreement between the parties.

Andy Pike ● 1282d

Thank you, Barbara, Andy and Peter for the interesting replies.  From what I have read, it is communal gas boilers that seem to be effected.  I can’t understand if communal electricity is included.  I also read that carehomes will be effected, as if the residents and their families aren’t paying enough already. The Labour Party must be hoping Sunak becomes Leader.  His lifestyle will be a gift to them.

Martine Guy ● 1282d

As the gas heating is charged by the council not sure how the govt subsidy will work BUT residents will still have separately charged electricity Bill's and in some cases gas ( for cooking) so there is still a route via the energy companies for the discounts to be paid in the same way as for others. I think ( hope) that the energy companies will simply apply to an account without getting too deep into forms of heating.

Andy Pike ● 1282d

I bet this will be a lot more also for older residents that have bought a flat in a luxury apartment, with hairdressers, and bar etc. Or in an older peoples home where they pay thousands a month.

Barbara Stevens ● 1282d

MartineCommunal systems are generally where all flats in a block or a combination of blocks are heated via a central energy plant / boiler house.In the more modern systems flats have control ( meters) for their individual usage and are billed accordingly. On the Wandsworth council estates there are about 5 _ 6000 units covered by communal heating and hot water charges and work on a pooled basis with each estate or block served by a boiler charged for the usage of that boiler. Over the last 12 or so years charges for the gas element have generally come down and last year rebates were given because of an historic surplus on the account. This year prices ( for fuel element) were again held down but I suspect next year a significant increase will have to apply. But it will be passed on pro rata to usage.Not sure about commercial v private charges but the WBC account is called domestic heating and hot water and can only recover actual costs of fuel consumed by the block. Modernisation to individual metering is, I believe, under consideration, but again costly particularly I assume,  for leaseholders.

Andy Pike ● 1282d

Our block management has just announced a four-fold increase in the estimated cost of the new gas contract for our communal central heating. This will result in an additional 'gas levy' on our service charges of about £800 a year for each flat. Various economy measures are being considered, but this won't be easy with a traditional shared system and residents used to having 'free' heating and hot water.

Peter Evans ● 1282d

My understanding is that there are going to be massive energy price increases for flat owners who have communal heating systems, as these are currently charged at commercial rates rather than domestic.  There is no Ofgem price cap on commercial rates. I don’t really understand how this works.  Do they mean flats that share one heating system that supplies heating inside each individual flat or do they mean the heating of the communal areas too?  Anyway it’s not good news for many residential owners.  It’s not just businesses like local pools that are effected. What does the Labour Party say about this?

Martine Guy ● 1282d