Forum Topic

Archie Battersbee

I hope that Archie can be given more time.  I do not agree with today’s decision by the court.

Martine Guy ● 1056d52 Comments

Yes, Barbara, very sad to hear about your personal experience.  Thank you for sharing and putting this into perspective. 

Michael Ixer ● 1042d

Echoed.Also I think a shout out for the judges is in order. They patiently spent hours listening to each and every new challenge. Meanwhile the hospital patiently did nothing adverse whilst any legal process was taking place.Whilst I don't agree with everything she did, the poor boy's mother can at least tell herself she left no stone unturned. In this respect she was fortunate that so many others were prepared to indulge her.

Michael Winstanley ● 1043d

So sorry that you had such a sad event in your life Barbara. Now with the benefit of hindsight you have been able to rationalise the situation and accept the outcome, and I hope experience peace.  xx

Sue Hammond ● 1043d

I was unfortunately in similar circumstances a few years back The staff were wonderful.  Explained everything that could be expected and took such care with me.  Doctors are trained to use the facts before them and not be emotive  They have no axe to grind but are there to give support.You are in an enclosed world  Unable to believe what is happenning, nothing means anything and they gave support  .Some years ago now but still horribly in the present Can't ever forget  Only consolation he wasn't left as an immobile shell because of what I selfishly wanted for me rather than what was best for him

Barbara Shillabeer ● 1043d

Sue. I'd have to agree with you that sadly in this case that seems to be true. I was a bit puzzled that they didn't want him moved for an MRI scan (I think even that required a court order) but did want him moved to a hospice when he was dependent on life support systems and it would have been very dangerous. I suppose sometimes it's difficult to be objective when one's emotionally involved, and I suppose it's impossible to know all the nuances involved in these cases when one's observing from a distance, particularly when children are involved?

Michael Ixer ● 1043d

Unfortunately I don't think any kind of mediation process would have worked in this case.  Hollie Dance has appeared to have been combative from the start and she is still bombastic now.  I heard her criticising the hospital again yesterday saying that it made Archie's death 'barbaric' which is ridiculously emotive and so wrong.  I just heard in LBC that she now wants an official inquiry!  In my opinion what she really wants is a huge NHS payout! Just go away woman and bury your child with dignity.

Sue Hammond ● 1043d

I think this is one of the more sensible comments I've heard: "Baroness Ilora Finlay, professor of palliative medicine at Cardiff University, told the BBC: "The problem of the adversarial system, once it gets to court, is that it takes everybody's time away - from the family being at the bedside of the person who's dying and the clinicians it takes them away from the care of that patient and other patients - quite apart from the fact there are enormous costs involved for everybody." It would seem better if there were an independent mediation service that attempted to bring consensus between rather then dividing the opposing parties? Although, as pointed out in the article, some cases might still end up in court. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-62455467 And I'm still uncertain what part the Christian Legal Centre played in this; were they just supporting, financing or actively pushing the case? Did they try to seek any out of court mediation with the medical staff? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-61829522

Michael Ixer ● 1043d

Sadly, I just read that Archie has died...Soul destroying, poor parents!

Ivonne Holliday ● 1044d

Hello Barbara,It is a horrifically sad and heartbreaking - if not gut-wrenching - situation. I also agree with Archie's mother in fighting this battle with every avenue possible, particularly with this statement in mind:"He suffered "catastrophic" brain injuries and doctors think it is "highly likely" he is brain-stem dead."There is no certainty or definite confirmation in the indication that he is "highly likely" to be brain-stem dead.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1044d

' if my gut was telling me there was no chance, it might be different.But my mother's instinct tells me my boy's still there'  Yes he certainly is  That's his soul  Stay with him and you will know when he's no longer here.

Barbara Shillabeer ● 1044d

Never thought I'd see the day I'd agree with Sue and Barbara

Simon Sharp ● 1044d

Has anyone thought about what sort of life that child would have if the appeals had been successful?  how utterly cruel and inhumane to wish that on anyone

Barbara Shillabeer ● 1045d

It's all desperately sad.  My only experience of a death in a hospice was that that was the way we'd choose to die with free visiting by family and friends and easy access to necessary painkillers and nursing assistance.  (We'd seen dreadful waits at home for psinkillers.) I understand that some hospices offer an at home service but don't know enough about it.  We talk a lot more about birth and not enough about end of life.Hospitals are places I've nearly always wanted to leave as fast as possible.Such a shame it is so difficult.

Philippa Bond ● 1045d

Sue. I wouldn't think many people could afford these number of court appearances. I don't know much about CLC other than their website (I posted the URL in an earlier message) says they provide legal support to Christians, and somewhere I think it uses the term 'pro bono'. That might imply they have their own lawyers who can provid legal support for free but I'm not sure, they may just have the funds to pay lawyers themselves, or perhaps the mechanism to assist people with apply for legal aid - perhaps a combination of those? Of course even if they are receiving legal assistance the family may still be incurring other expenses for travel, loss of earnings, etc? So supporting this type of case seems to be what CLC do but it strikes me they aren't providing much support when the hearings fail?

Michael Ixer ● 1046d

During a recent media interview I heard Archie's Mother say 'this is costing us a lot of money' and I did wonder who the 'us' was referring to?  Not being funny but she doesn't look like she is rolling in money and neither does Archie's Dad who she is estranged from, so I assumed her lawyers were being funded by legal aid, but maybe not?  So, are her legal costs being covered by CLC and why would they? What are they hoping to gain from it?  What is Hollie Dance's connection to this organisation?  From watching her speaking to the media at every opportunity I always thought that she loved the attention and enjoyed being in the limelight a bit too much ...

Sue Hammond ● 1046d

The legal action is continuing as they want to move their son into a hospice against the advice of the hospital, but my point was, firstly, more general about costs, and, secondly, questioning whether their supporting organisation was just providing funds or had a wider agenda to push the case.

Michael Ixer ● 1046d

Sorry, my misunderstanding. I got the impression from misreading what you and Ms Hammond wrote that there might be some further legal action threatening.

David Ainsworth ● 1046d

David, I'm not sure in what context you're using the word "attacked". Even if the NHS is awarded court costs and those for its legal team (and I can't see why they wouldn't be but there may be some legal aspects I'm unaware of) there might be internal costs relating to the time spent by the hospital medical and administration teams compiling material to be used by the lawyers. I'm not sure those costs would be recoverable - certainly the time isn't!

Michael Ixer ● 1046d

"It's impossible to know, but I assume where organisations bring pro bono cases against the NHS might be liable to pick up some costs, or as they've lost the cases will CLC have costs awarded agains them?"On what grounds could the NHS be attacked in this?

David Ainsworth ● 1046d

One assumes his mother is possibly feeling destraught and out of control at present so is possibly not speaking entirely rationally? I do wonder what part the organisation supporting the parents, and presumably funding the court actions, the Christian Legal Centre, have in pushing this case forward; are they setting unrealistic expectations? It's impossible to know, but I assume where organisations bring pro bono cases against the NHS might be liable to pick up some costs, or as they've lost the cases will CLC have costs awarded agains them? My concern is that these cases might further deplete NHS resources and detract from other healthcare. Looking at the CLC website some of their cases seem a little suspect (implicit support of conversion therapies?) although I can see others which are reasonable questioning of decisions even if they're not in line with my own beliefs (street preaching). https://christianconcern.com/about/services/christian-legal-centre/ Obviously, justice needs to be seen to be done and will cost money but surely that should come from some budget other than the NHS's?

Michael Ixer ● 1046d

I'm inclined to agree with you Sue. The whole situation is terrible but to start talking of executions/murder doesn't really help.As someone with a 13 year old son i just can't imagine what she is going through :(

Matt Palmer ● 1046d

I just feel desperately sorry for her, it is really very sad for the family.

Martine Guy ● 1046d

This is a desperately sad situation and I understand why Archie's family have fought tooth and nail to keep him on life support, I really do. However his Mother, Hollie Dance, is now seriously hacking me off.  It started a few days ago when I heard her speaking about what she called the execution letter and she actually said her son was being executed by the country!  She was careful not to accuse the doctors treating Archie or the Govt, probably on the advice of her lawyers.  Earlier this evening just after the ECHR negative decision was announced HD then accused the 'country' of murder(!) which is utterly ridiculous. I realise she is bitterly disappointed but the decision to end Archie's life support has not been taken lightly and neither has it been taken quickly because the poor boy has been in this comatose state since April.  I can sense litigation coming down the road ...

Sue Hammond ● 1046d

If the Doctors are more emotional about usage of resources. It's not the Doctor's who get paid to sort out resources. In my mind they should not be Doctors, a bed can be renewed a patient can not. There is too much now day's about signing forms not to revive a patient. If this is how your mate's who are Doctor's feel, I would not want to be a patient of theirs. Perhaps they would be better in a slaughter house.

Barbara Stevens ● 1047d

Andy,I was replying to the comment:"Your point it good about expanding resources if needed but ultimately this child is using up a nurse I would imagine. They feel it is not a good use of anyone's time and not one of them is siding with the parents here (even ones who have kids)."

Ivonne Holliday ● 1047d

Andy, I am very sorry to hear about this sadness in your life. 
As regards Archie, I hope he can be released into the care of the Japanese or Turkish doctors who are offering to help him.  

Martine Guy ● 1047d

That's not what is happening here. From my understanding the Drs and the courts have reviewed time and again all the facts and come to the very difficult conclusion that there is no more they can do to save this young lads life.They are therefore faced with either keeping him alive artificially until his major organs reject this help and close down. Or switching off the artificial supports and let him slip away naturally.An awful position to be in and one I would hate to have to decide on.Then the balance as a parent you would naturally fight tooth and nail and cling on to any hope , no matter how slim, that a miracle could happen. It's a circle that cannot be squared and a dispassionate resource appraisal is possibly not helpful no matter how it may stack up to those not affected.I can only relate to when my grandson was stillborn.2 or 3 hours later as I was about to leave the hospital I popped into the maternity area where he was being kept to see if there had been any change.We are not rational faced with personal tragedy.

Andy Pike ● 1047d

One has to have enormous sympathy for all involved in this. What one has to keep in mind is that the courts have to look at this dispationately and their responsibility is just for the interests patient not the feeling of the parents or, for that matter, the medical staff. This is just an observation: I'm not going to comment on the rights or wrongs of the case as I haven't studied them in the same details as the judges have and I don't have either the legal or medical knowledge to do so.

Michael Ixer ● 1047d

This reminds me of  situation that happened years ago in Switzerland.The wife rings at night time their equivalent to 999 saying her husband was non responsive but breathing and gave out other symptoms which, from memory, were similar to a stroke.  But the key response she received:  "Don't worry, he will be dead in a few minutes.  We will go in the morning."

Ivonne Holliday ● 1047d

It does affect them emotionally but they are more emotional about the usage of resource in (what they say) is a lost cause. Your point it good about expanding resources if needed but ultimately this child is using up a nurse I would imagine. They feel it is not a good use of anyone's time and not one of them is siding with the parents here (even ones who have kids).

Simon Sharp ● 1047d

Yes, Simon, a very clinical explanation.  As you say, this case could potentially (your words, not mine) harm other individuals by denying them the resource.  The key word here is potentially - not that it actually has. Very different!Hospitals have means and ways of adding beds to ICUs if need be - the latest proof we have is the COVID pandemic.  By the way, have you asked you medical friends if cases like this one affects them emotionally too? As for the multiple tests to determine "death", as reported yesterday on the BBC website:"Doctors treating him have said they believe it is "highly likely" he is brain-stem dead and argued it is in his best interest for life-support to end."The "highly likely" is not the same as confirming that he is brain dead.  Also, according to the Hippocratic oath:  "Practice two things in your dealings with disease: either help or do not harm the patient"

Ivonne Holliday ● 1047d

You obviously do not have any children and could not care less. I am surprised you have any friends as you have no compassion either.

Barbara Stevens ● 1047d

I am not a medical professional. However I have multiple medical friends who use that argument (scarcity of ITU resources) as their fundamental opposition to this case being dragged out going so far as saying this is potentially causing harm to other individuals (by denying them the resource). As far as they are concerned this is a common scenario and there appear multiple tests to determine "death".

Simon Sharp ● 1047d

If a Judge's child was in the same position, I bet their child would be given more time. What you have put on the forum is disgusting. If it was my child and you said that straight to my face, You possibly would be flat out on your back.

Barbara Stevens ● 1047d

I have empathy for the parents but they are flogging a dead horse. Ever think that this dead boy is taking up a finite resource (an ITU bed) which is needed for others? You may not have much idea on this side of things, but this is literally how it works.

Simon Sharp ● 1047d

No, as I mentioned before, I am not a doctor.But doctors are human too and, however scientific the diagnosis is, it does affect them emotionally too.  Ask any doctor if this is the case.  I assume you are not a doctor either.But, to mention one case - different circumstances I agree, is Michael Schumacher.  I did say different circumstances!But, as reported on the BBC's news website today:"Doctors treating him have said they believe it is "highly likely" he is brain-stem dead and argued it is in his best interest for life-support to end."

Ivonne Holliday ● 1048d

Agree, Judy.  Archie’s family are desperate.  They are doing everything they can.  What a heartbreaking situation.

Martine Guy ● 1048d

So we are not to show any empathy towards the poor parents because we're not doctors, Is that really what you're saying?

Judy Allen ● 1048d

Ivonne you said "does appear to be a rather rushed decision.  I am not a doctor and it must horrible for doctors to say his is brain dead." you have absolutely no idea if it was rushed or not. You have zero medical qualification to even postulate if it was "rushed". "must be horrible"...brain stem death is a medical diagnosis based on objective measurements. It's not an emotional diagnosis.

Simon Sharp ● 1048d

There is nothing wrong with expressing the horror of the situation those poor parents are.  A very desperate situation!

Ivonne Holliday ● 1048d

But these issues far beyond our understanding are the very things that people will want to discuss.

David Ainsworth ● 1048d

Brilliant valuable opinions from forum members who haven't attended a day of medical school. You don't have to have an opinion on everything especially those issues far beyond your understanding.

Simon Sharp ● 1048d

thankfully his dad was only in hospital overnight so probably not a stroke or heart attack. More likely a panic attack. tough times for the family.

Andy Pike ● 1048d

Archie’s life support could be removed tomorrow.  Too soon, in my opinion.  He should be given longer.

Martine Guy ● 1049d

The father has had a stroke.

Barbara Stevens ● 1056d

Surely, it's nothing to do with the government. It's a medical decision being tested by the judiciary.

Michael Ixer ● 1056d

A difficult and sad case. I see an appeal to the ECtHR is being considered. I was surprised the ruling wasn't postponed after his father had collapsed and was unable to attend the hearing.

Michael Ixer ● 1056d

Awful situation for any family but Doctors wouldnt make these decisions if they thought there was any hope at all.Not really sure what govt can do in a situation like this.

Andy Pike ● 1056d

Absolutely horrific thing to go through!If the accident happened in April, it does appear to be a rather rushed decision.  I am not a doctor and it must horrible for doctors to say his is brain dead.Dreadful! 

Ivonne Holliday ● 1056d

I just feel sorry for everyone involved in this, what a terrible thing to go through :(

Matt Palmer ● 1056d

The accident only happened in April.  It is too soon to remove life support.  Is it possible for the Government to intervene?

Martine Guy ● 1056d

Martine, I don't agree with Government, some people come out of a coma after years. He should be given longer.

Barbara Stevens ● 1056d