Forum Topic

Solar panels?

I have a flat roof at the back of my terraced cottage in Commondale. With a fixed contract until June next year I’ve yet to be hit by rocketing energy costs. I’m wondering whether installing solar panels on that roof might be worthwhile. Any advice, and recommendations for local suppliers? My combined gas and electricity costs under £100 a month currently, but it will jump next year …Nick

Nicholas Evans ● 1098d52 Comments

Nick, thank you for keeping us informed.  It is very interesting.

Martine Guy ● 1029d

Bravo!  I hope you get the battery soon.The Guardian had this yesterday:https://www.theguardian.com/money/2022/aug/20/solar-panels-how-to-fix-your-energy-bills-while-the-sun-shinesand this four years ago which is an interesting look back:https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/aug/20/majority-of-uk-public-want-to-install-solar-panels-poll-finds

Philippa Bond ● 1029d

Ivonne: A survey can be done by the installer. In my case this involved the payment of £250 upfront of a “deposit” which was part of the overall contract. Mine cost a bit more than £8,000 (I don’t have the figures to hand) including everything, battery included. The battery is the most expensive item.Every house is different, so my 5-panel scheme inc battery may not be the same as yours. The more panels the better I think. I could not use the front roof because protections are in place on the front of the cottages.Nick

Nicholas Evans ● 1033d

Wow Nick, that is excellent news!  Well, the fitting of the panels at least!  You mention a payment for the panels plus the battery - is this the final cost or are there other costs involved in the future?  I am asking this because I have ingrained in my brain the comment that "the cost will be almost equivalent to taking out a mortgage".  Thank you!

Ivonne Holliday ● 1033d

An update on my situation for those following this thread. I decided at the end of June to install 5 solar panels at the rear of my sloping roof in Commondale (3 panels) and adjoining flat roof (2 sloping panels). I also decided to have a battery. I obtained estimates from three companies. I chose the one which seemed to understand my needs best at a good price.The panels were installed at the beginning of August which involved scaffolding at the back. The panels cannot be seen from the front. The installation took just a day, although the scaffolding hung around for 10 days. But I am still waiting for the battery to be fitted which is annoying. The supplier says it will be installed as soon as it arrives, but will not provide an estimate of when that might be. There is a shortage throughout the industry  it seems.The overall cost will be just over £8,000 (no VAT), including the battery which I have not paid for yet. I am fortunate to have had some cash savings which I could use to pay for this. It seems a sensible move in light of 10%+ inflation. My HHD Smart-meter shows that I am using less energy now from the grid. How much this effects my electricity bill I will see in due course.Until the battery is installed which will receive electricity from the panels and which will also be “topped up” during the night using the Economy 7 tariff, the system is not complete. So I can’t estimate “pay-back” yet. The higher electricity prices go, the shorter this will be.I will not mention the name of the supplier until the battery arrives. At the moment my view of their performance is positive, but affected by the wait for the battery.Nick

Nicholas Evans ● 1033d

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001b3yyHow are you getting on with your investigations?From the day before yesterday's? programme it seems that they are so much cheaper than they used to be.  I was amazed at the difference for an array.

Philippa Bond ● 1034d

It would be good to get to see and read about buildings like these:https://www.london.gov.uk/what-we-do/environment/energy/london-community-energy-fund

Philippa Bond ● 1068d

I've been using a solar light as a bedside light for years.  I also have one sitting on a window sill where it is ready in case of emergency in an electricity cut.  I got these from an Ecobuild exhibition at the O2.  They were sold to benefit the charity Solar Aid who aim to provide solar light to Africa.I have also seen that there were beach huts where people had small ones hung on a door.  I didn't stop to ask what they were being used for powering.  I've also seen them advertised for powering mobile phones, on backpacks, sunhats and together with batteries.  I must have had solar powered calculators for over 20 years. There are lots advertised - it is actually seeing and hearing from people who are using this technology especially here in the UK which is missing.  I've always thought this would be a good subject for those London Open House days and for empty high street shops to be used as demonstration and information hubs.

Philippa Bond ● 1068d

Nick, I agree with you.  For me a big factor would be having power in my home, if there were a power cut, as I assume I would have the power for a heater or to boil a kettle, and I guess there would be hot water for a wash or shower.  

Martine Guy ● 1070d

Martine, thanks, that’s interesting.Of course there are a number of factors apart from the time it will  take to recoup the cost of installation which should be taken into account. One of these is the saving in CO2 - most of my so-called “renewable energy” is generated by using imported gas for example. Another crucial factor is the likely rise in electricity bought from the grid. The higher the price rises - and watch it soar! - the quicker your cost can be recouped.Everyone’s finances are different. The current rates for savings accounts are around 2% for a one year fixed saver account. On £10,000 that’s a return of £200 a year pretax. Would the solar panel investment be a better bet? A loan for the installation costs will add to the total.I’ve mentioned earlier the fact that the area of roof is critical. Small roof, less room for panels, less electricity generated. In my own case I think I can fit 6 panels, which will probably be enough. But I haven’t decided yet.Nick

Nicholas Evans ● 1070d

Also a short article in The Times on Saturday “How to Tell if Solar Panels will Pay Off”. Don’t know how to do links, so will put a few comments from it: “About 1 million homes (about 4 percent of U.K. properties have them, but the number is growing rapidly”. “There are two types: photovoltaics (PV) which generate electricity, and thermal ones that use solar energy to heat water stored in a cylinder.  Both types connect to your house’s electricity system, allowing the power to be used directly by your appliances.” ”How much does a system cost?  The average is about £6,000.. A battery, which you will need if you want to store the power you don’t use, costs an extra £4,000” ”It will take between 11 and 27 years to recoup the cost of your panels.”

Martine Guy ● 1070d

Demand for solar panels is increasing. I’m currently being quoted 2-3 months to install. There's an interesting article by the Guardian’s Energy. Correspondent in yesterday’s paper. Here’s a link:https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/03/uk-interest-in-solar-power-energy-bills-soar-boomNick

Nicholas Evans ● 1076d

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qps9BBC. You and Yours 4 July 2022.  32:43 UK's leakiest buildings and solutions?

Philippa Bond ● 1077d

https://www.greensquare.co.uk/blog/solar-thermal-vs-solar-pv-how-are-they-different?format=amp  There are also solar tiles now on the market.

Philippa Bond ● 1079d

How is this relevant to the solar panels being installed now?

Sue Hammond ● 1079d

There is solar thermal and solar photo voltaic.I think solar thermal was more popular in the past and you would see panels with tubes in them on the roof.  Solar thermal was used to heat water in a water tank and often had to be heated further with an immersion heater.

Philippa Bond ● 1079d

A friend of mine had panels on his roof and refused smart meters as his panels fed directly to his old meter and effectively turned the clock back. Meaning he was getting the commercial value for any excess ( ie stored on the meter) and rarely had a bill. Not sure his situation now as he was battling the electricity board who were desperate to change his meter. He was fortunate with a large roof area and relatively small house.

Andy Pike ● 1080d

Martine, of course solar panels are much more efficient now than they were 40 years ago. They basically generate electricity (measured in kWh) in DC current that has to be converted to AC for use around the home. That is why the SPV system will include an Inverter. The use of the solar energy generated can be for many things. All your appliances, hot water, heating, or just some. You decide. I think you need to look at how much energy you are using currently and what for, and then check how much solar energy could be produced. In the end you will need to consider the cost of installation against likely savings.Of course the amount of electricity generated will depend on the type of panels installed and how many of them there are. I think the size and position of your roof, it’s orientation to the sun will all be factors. The companies I’ve asked for quotations all had online forms asking for basic information and used GoogleEarth to consider your roof. They were very helpful in answering questions. They all recommend a site survey, but you can get a lot of information before you get to that stage.Have a look at some of the very good explanatory videos online …Cheers,Nick

Nicholas Evans ● 1080d

Nick, Thank you for this detailed reply.  I think many people must be considering solar panels and wondering about the pros/cons of going ahead.  
If we get power cuts, presumably solar panels will provide hot water?  Would there be power for electric appliances too, or maybe the system doesn’t work like that. What exactly do the solar panels provide enough energy for? I have only ever, to my knowledge, been in one home where they had a solar panel.  This was over 40 years ago and it was specifically for heating water.  When I turned on the tap, the water was only warm not hot.  Many years later, I guess the panels can now provide the power for really hot water Apologies if any of my comments are stupid.  I am really just wanting to understand solar panels and what they provide as regards hot water and heating.

Martine Guy ● 1080d

That's a great resume.I found this which appears to give a current overall view of what is available.  So much seems to be promoted by three word PR.  I think what we initially knew as the Feed In Tariff (FiT) has been superseded by Smart Energy Grant?  It does appear to vary between electricity companies.  All part of this privatised competitive market which will keep changing.https://www.yesenergysolutions.co.uk/advice/

Philippa Bond ● 1080d

Dear Martine, as I understand the installation process they lift some tiles/slates and screw metal brackets into the joists to which the panels are attached, and replace the tiles/slates. Here is a link to an explanation and video: https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/solar-panels/article/solar-panels/solar-panel-installation-aiRvu3N6OyEN#video-guide-solar-pv-installation. A panel weighs around 50 kilos.In my own case I use gas for hot water and central heating  and consume 12,064 kWh, while my electricity usage is 2,860 kWh. My electricity bill is higher than my gas.It seems because of the limitations on how many panels can be fitted, the amount of solar electricity that could be generated would be around 2,000 kWh although this would vary depending on the amount of sunshine. Sometimes it would be enough to power all appliances, sometimes not. The shortfall would be made up from the national grid, at an off-peak rate. This is where a battery is essential, although they are pricey at £4,000 +. I presume that any outage from the grid would be covered by having the battery bridge the gap.I’ve now discovered that if you sell excess energy to the grid, which in my own case will probably be minimal, I will receive only 3.5p per KWh while if I buy from the grid the rate is currently 29.5p or higher! So much for the government encouraging us! Hopefully when we have a sane government they will increase the export tariff and introduce some grants against installation.Finally, there are of course many other factors to take into account: the saving of CO2 generation, the likelihood that gas and electricity prices will go on rising (the next rise in the price cap is expected in October). The state of my roof. Whether the installation cost makes sense balanced against the amount of money saved. Then of course there is the question as to whether I should substitute electricity for hot water heating rather than gas. Probably not, but I will see.I’m still waiting for a third quotation from another SPV supplier - I’m learning as I go along. Fortunately I have a fixed price energy deal for gas and electricity until June 2023, so I have some time to consider my options.Hope this helps.Nick

Nicholas Evans ● 1081d

I assume if there are power cuts, the solar panels still produce energy?  Nick, are you thinking of installing the panels to work alongside gas central heating?  What will your panels provide the energy for? re: the fitting of solar panels, which I asked about early in the thread, I understand they build a frame on the roof for fitting the panels.  We have a pitch tiled roof.  Do they remove tiles to install panels? As I said before, this is a very interesting thread.

Martine Guy ● 1082d

Modern panels are self-cleaning. The roof will be surveyed for its suitability. There is a useful video from Which showing how installation is done. Each panel can be detached from its bracket quite easily in extremis. The weight of an average panel is 50 kilos.Nick

Nicholas Evans ● 1082d

You must have to keep having them cleaned, or they won't work efficiently if the sun can't get to them properly. What about if you have a leak on your roof.

Barbara Stevens ● 1082d

Philippa, I noticed that the Oasis Primary School has a lot of panels at both ends of its roof.As far as my own investigations into installing panels here in Commondale are concerned I’m making progress. I’ve received two quotations and am awaiting a third. So I have a better idea of the installation cost. It will come down to deciding if the panels can generate sufficient electricity to justify the outlay. I think that having a battery would make sense as it can be topped up by off-peak energy from the grid as necessary. With a limited roof area (flat roof at back plus rear sloping roof - the front cannot be used) the limit to the amount of energy that can be generated from 5 or 6 panels will one of the deciding factors.One thing I have not yet considered is whether installing panels will increase the value of the house.Nick

Nicholas Evans ● 1082d

The Schools Energy Coop is one such solar project.

Philippa Bond ● 1083d

There are community solar schemes which are interesting and hopefully Govt will allow more.  These are sometimes for schools and I believe Salisbury Cathedral also has a community funded solar array on its roof somewhere.

Philippa Bond ● 1083d

The more ideas and innovations the better.  Today as I tore up a bit of egg box to put in the wormery I discovered that it was partly made of rye grass.  I'd just presumed it was paper.  Things change.

Philippa Bond ● 1094d

Yes, it seems to be much more joined up than it used to be - which is why fuel companies can offer more.  If you look at some of the companies that install these you can see some of the projects they have completed - and research more.  I was looking at what Woking appeared to be doing updating their 'affordable' housing recently presumably because of the restraints on Councils following the Right to Buy of Council housing.

Philippa Bond ● 1094d

Powering heat pumps from solar generated electricity seems a sensible move if there's sufficient capacity. Going off topic, I wondered what people think of Dale Vince's idea of creating "green gas" from grass? I have to admit I'm not sure about the carbon equation regarding this and haven't had time to read the detailed report. I thought someone else might already have reviewed it? https://www.ecotricity.co.uk/our-news/2022/massive-new-gas-field-discovered-in-britain?utm_source=braze&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Green_gas_June_2022

Michael Ixer ● 1094d

In the Times “Bricks & Mortar” today, an article on a “pioneering housing scheme in east London” which is “carbon negative”.   The homes “generate more than they use, with rooftop photovoltaic panels to power air-source heat pumps for heating and hot water, and they store excess energy in the home’s battery. I didn’t know you could use the power from the solar panels to power the air-source heat pumps.  Sounds brilliant to me. Martin Lewis has interesting information on solar panels on his MoneySavingExpert website.

Martine Guy ● 1094d

Here is some other info you may find interesting as it is good to see and understand how and what is happening elsewhere around you.https://takeclimateaction.uk/near-you/local-authority/wandsworth?postcode=sw159ds#overview

Philippa Bond ● 1094d

Great idea.  I notice that a group of volunteers in Kingston are trying to find an empty building to start a Kingston Hive of ideas and solutions.  It would be hood if there were lots of local places where this could happen.https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/news/news-march-2022/updated-climate-plan-published/

Philippa Bond ● 1095d

Caroline - yes, good idea.Nick

Nicholas Evans ● 1095d

Nick: At the bottom end of Sefton St there is a house with lots of solar panels. Perhaps worth talking to them.

Caroline Whitehead ● 1095d

https://cat.org.uk/    There is more info here. There are more than one type  -  and not just in the way they look.

Philippa Bond ● 1095d

Technology has been moving fast and changes and improves all the time - which is why finding those interested who have done and are doing this is important rather than just those who are selling them.  There have been grants to encourage the take up and these come and go and change.  Don't be pressurised in any way to make a decision you are not comfortable with.  Do your research and homework first.There was at one time a very good Govt feed in tariff (FIT) available and those who were confident or brave and able enough to take advantage of this did very well.  However there are now some other companies doing this.Insulation is also key.  Roofs and solar panels also have a finite life and maintenance is also important.The Energy Saving Trust website has lots of information.

Philippa Bond ● 1095d

Thanks Clifford. That’s certainly one of the things I’ll take into account.Nick

Nicholas Evans ● 1096d

Nicholas, I would caution against installing any solar panel, or indeed any equipment at all, on any flat roof unless the roof has been specifically designed to accommodate the installation.In my experience flat roofs are highly susceptible to deterioration and require, over time, considerably more maintenance than do pitched roofs.The composition of the flat roofing material makes very little difference whether it be a asphalte membrane or layered roofing felt - they all deteriorate and require ofttimes expensive maintenance.Sorry to be somewhat negativeTake it from a retired architect.

Clifford Cowell ● 1096d

It happens to us all, Sue! :-)

Michael Ixer ● 1096d

@ MichaelYes I did lol. Two typos in one post! ☺️ In the midst of typing I was interrupted by a delivery from a courier I hadn't seen for quite a while and we had a good old chinwag.🗣

Sue Hammond ● 1096d

Sorry my post .should have read 18 months ago.

Sue Hammond ● 1096d

Sue, did you mean "did not have to bear the considerable expense"?

Michael Ixer ● 1096d

8 months ago an elderly couple that I know very well moved to a bungalow that already has solar panels installed but they are not overly impressed with their performance, and to be honest (in my opinion) they look quite ugly. Fortunately they did have to bear the considerable expense of installing them but neither have they received any rebate on their energy bills.  Any maintenance costs are unknown so far.  Balanced article from Greenmatch on the pros and cons:https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/2014/08/5-advantages-and-5-disadvantages-of-solar-energy

Sue Hammond ● 1096d

Thanks Nick. I am sorry if this is a really stupid question, but how do they fit them, is it difficult or are they just placed on an existing roof?

Martine Guy ● 1097d

Will do. I only have a small house and relatively low electricity bills. I don’t have a car, but have played with the idea of getting a electric one. But I do have a flat roof on the extension at the back, so maybe that will keep the cost of installation down. I shall see …Nick

Nicholas Evans ● 1097d

Nick, I think this is a very interesting thread about solar panels.  If you do get them, please keep us informed how you get on.

Martine Guy ● 1097d

https://wandsworth.gov.uk/news/2021-news/news-february-2021/thinking-about-getting-solar-panels-here-are-9-things-to-know/

Philippa Bond ● 1097d

There are more efficient solar panels on the market now.  I believe the orientation of your roof is no longer as critical as it once was.  There are also tiles.  Insulation  is still important.  Now that there are some energy suppliers offering deals including car charging and feeding excess back into the grid (even if the rate is very poor compared to the original FITs it still looks interesting.  I'm not sure what the feeling is about leasing your roof is now - which is what some do.

Philippa Bond ● 1097d

Hello Nick,We were thinking about getting solar panels about 7 years or so ago.We were discouraged of getting them at that time by electricians, engineers, builders, architects, etc. because they were so expensive and, at least then, they would be sold on a long-term loan basis or, for a better description, equivalent to a 25 year mortgage....The benefits of lower or no electricity bill would not be enjoyed for some time.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1097d

Thanks Philippa. I’m getting a quote from a company recommended by my energy supplier.Nick

Nicholas Evans ● 1097d

I'm surprised no-one has replied on the forum.  In a terrace the homes either side will help to keep yours warm so long as they are heated but what about keeping cool?  I had a look at Transition Town Tooting to see if they have any updated information.  Most Councils have schemes, City Hall has a scheme and Solar for Schools are working in Wandsworth.  Local Friends of the Earth groups and low carbon groups are likely to have people who can tell you more about their own experiences here.The Energy Saving Trust has information.  Wandsworth has declared a Climate Emergency...  and Extinction Rebellion were active in drawing attention to that.Good luck!

Philippa Bond ● 1098d