Forum Topic

It's all most confusing.

Now why would Ukraine so strongly resist the Russian takeover, when it is willing to be "taken over" by the EU, from which WE have so recently struggled free?"The EU executive will this week make a recommendation on whether Ukraine should be given candidate status, the European Commission president, Ursula von der Leyen has said. In a joint press conference with Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, during a surprise visit to Kyiv on Saturday, Von der Leyen said: “We want to support Ukraine in its European journey.” Such a recommendation would be a step on a long road to full membership. Speaking alongside Von der Leyen, Zelenskiy said that the EU’s decision on Ukraine would “determine” the future of Europe."https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/12/russia-ukraine-war-what-we-know-on-day-109-of-the-invasionIn 40 years will there be attempts at a Ukrexit?

David Ainsworth ● 1099d13 Comments

Rules can certainly be bent and amended, and our own PM is certainly adept at breaking rules :-)I can't see Ukraine being admitted to the EU while it's still at war with Russia but I could see in the future admission might be fast tracked as part of a recovery process? (Just speculation, we have no idea when and how the current conflict will end. )I'm not convinced Turkey still wishes to join, does it? It seems to have moved away from the EU and US recently (buying some Russian arms),  and given Turkey's opposition to Sweden and Finland joining NATO EU membership seems problematic - but perhaps there's some sort of negotiating position there? Of course governments and political positions change. Dangerous to try and predict the future!

Michael Ixer ● 1099d

Rules are made to be broken as the saying goes. I wouldn't put too much faith in those rules being followed.The question is how will Turkey react if Ukraine is admitted when it doesn't meet the criteria?Surely it will drive Turkey further away from the West. Looks like another own goal to me by the EU, US, UK.

Ed Robinson ● 1099d

Thank you Michael.I did not think the membership of the EU was open to all countries. Perhaps my mistake.  Also, there are countries in Europe that are not full members of the EU.As for overseas territories, I thought they came under countries like France, the Netherlands, the UK.  I checked their websiste and you are correct, geography is not an requisite to become a member.  It states that, in addition to the Copenhagen Criteria:"The EU operates comprehensive approval procedures that ensure new members are admitted only when they can demonstrate they will be able to play their part fully as members, namely by:- complying with all the EU's standards and rules- having the consent of the EU institutions and EU member states- having the consent of their citizens – as expressed through approval in their national parliaments or by referendum."But most of the countries in the process of incorporating EU law to their legislation are European countries (Albania, Montenegro, North Macedonia, Serbia) + Turkey.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1099d

I don't see any geographic issues with Ukraine, it's part of Eastern Europe (at least Wikipedia seems to agree with that) and so is part of Turkey but in any case aren't there French and other EU countries' overseas territories that aren't in Europe that are part of the EU? Isn't EU membership about a economic alignment and following democratic principles defined in the European Convention of Human Rights as much as geography. (Which is basically what Ed said.)

Michael Ixer ● 1099d

Hi Ivonne,The EU objection to Turkey joining was not geographic location but issues with their record on human rights and the rule of law.I'm sure the EU were aware of Turkey's geography before negotiation started."Since 2016, accession negotiations have stalled.[8] The EU has accused and criticized Turkey for human rights violations and deficits in rule of law"https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Turkey_to_the_European_Union#:~:text=In%202017%2C%20EU%20officials%20expressed,away%20from%20the%20European%20Union.

Ed Robinson ● 1099d

Hello Ed,I thought Ukraine is in Europe, continental Europe that is.  Turkey, on the other hand, is part in the European continent while it is mostly in Asia.Please correct me if I am wrong.Thank you

Ivonne Holliday ● 1099d

It will be difficult to justify excluding Turkey if Ukraine joins.This is before the current war: https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-central-asia/ukraine/report-ukraine/

Ed Robinson ● 1099d

Obviously, the UK's entry into the EEC was entirely consensual as it followed a referendum and subsequent changes were done with the permission of the democratically elected UK government which was also instrumental in determining the new rules. (Totally different to Putin's dreams of a Russian empire.) The Ukraine's application to the EU will go through a similar process to any other state wishing to join, although perhaps current politics will accelerate membership? (Whereas the prevailing politics of the 1960s and de Gaulle's attitude delayed the UKs entry to the EEC. Although perhaps Orbán will be the one saying "non" this time to keep his chum Putin happy?)

Michael Ixer ● 1099d

Thank you David,I did not realize you were starting a new thread over a comment on another.  My apologies.I will try to find Andy Pike's comment.Thank you.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1099d

Yes, I was responding to this posting on "takeover" from Mr Pike:-"Yeh there are plenty of issues to finalise and no one thought undoing nearly 60 years of European rule would happen overnight. In the same way that joining didnt happen overnight, it was a creeping increasing takeover that still hadnt finished when we said enough is enough.So 50 years and still going to take over the country, yeh maybe it will take 50 years to undo all that.""a creeping increasing takeover that still hadnt finished when we said enough is enough.So 50 years and still going to take over the country"There you go. I obviously failed there.

David Ainsworth ● 1099d

There obviously is also the option to leave the EU (the UK just exercised it) but Putin seems to think there shouldn't be an option to leave the Russian Federation ...

Michael Ixer ● 1099d

Oh, and I forgot to mention.On most matters, individual EU members were/are allowed to determine how the rules will be implemented in their country but, on many issues the UK government chose not to follow that route. Also, I do not think it is appropriate, at the moment at least, to make a comparison between Ukraine and the UK.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1099d

I am not too sure what it is that you find confusing.  Being invaded by Russia or voluntarily being part of the EU?As for takeovers, the EU does not take over as each Member has a right to vote or veto a decision it disagrees with.  The EU decisions are taken by unanimity and not consensus.So, if the EU "took over" the UK as you say, the UK government agreed to it....

Ivonne Holliday ● 1099d