Forum Topic

Good to see a United EU on sanctions

But wait,  Italy get a bye on selling luxury goods and handbags to Russia. Belgium Diamonds. Germany wavering  on Swift payments.

Andy Pike ● 1496d61 Comments

I was wondering about the significantly different volume of trade in goods and services (imports and exports) between the UK and Russia, and between the EU and Russia.

David Ainsworth ● 1489d

Well, the UK ones won't be much use if they're all like the one "imposed" on VTB Bank: Johnson told the HoC last week that he was imposing an immediate “full asset freeze” on the Moscow-based VTB.However, the next day the Treasury announced that the bank had been given a reprieve from the measures until the end of March in order to allow individuals and companies to “wind down any transactions” with the bank. In other words, it'll be completely ineffective.

Richard Carter ● 1489d

So who will likely have the most effect on Russia by their sanctions - EU or UK?

David Ainsworth ● 1489d

Sky News has published a useful list of sanctions on Russian individuals and entities; the issue is complicated, as reading their list shows:https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-invasion-what-sanctions-are-different-countries-around-the-world-imposing-on-russia-and-will-they-work-12554601

Richard Carter ● 1489d

It's ok David I've sussed it you're using the Diane Abbott book of statistical interpretation.

Andy Pike ● 1489d

Not sure why Andy divides the number.

David Ainsworth ● 1489d

Thank you Matt.  Went into Bloomberg but it is behind a pay wall.Will keep investigating!But it is surprising the numbers for Canada, Australia and Switzerland.  :-)

Ivonne Holliday ● 1489d

In fairness James Cleverly has said it is incorrect and the number is 228. I wouldn't take his word for it unfortunately.I couldn't get to the article to see if it had changed but the graph does say since invasion. Sanctions have to be official or they can't be acted upon.Should be easy for a news agency to fact check as updates to the government publication are recorded. The BBC did that:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/60591547https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/infographics/eu-sanctions-against-russia-over-ukraine/https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-uk-sanctions-list

Ed Robinson ● 1489d

Ok 27 equates to 18.15 per country still pretty much on a par with us.Not sure why David multiplies the number

Andy Pike ● 1489d

27 countries in EU.490 x 27 = 13,230

David Ainsworth ● 1489d

27?

Ivonne Holliday ● 1489d

With 28 countries in the EU this equates to 17.5 per country, pretty much on par with our 16.

Andy Pike ● 1489d

No of course not ALL wealth creation but definitely the reckless, selfish, obscene amount as a result of lowering of standards, fragmentation and deregulation we have seen together with a loss of personal integrity.

Philippa Bond ● 1489d

Here's the original link, looks like he got it from Bloomberghttps://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1499752553810214916?cxt=HHwWiIC-zY3AmNApAAAA

Matt Palmer ● 1489d

Thank you Matt, the information is very useful and helpful.Where is this information from?

Ivonne Holliday ● 1489d

Isn't it the case that most of the Russian billionaires got their money by theft? So what if they get a few yachts stolen off them?Bearing in mind we can't use direct military force I don't see the issue in squeezing the pips of some billionaires, you never know some of them might in turn give Putin a squeeze.Agree completely on ordinary Russians in the UK though, there's a Russian boy in my sons class and all seems well on that front at the moment.

Matt Palmer ● 1489d

I'm all for sanctions - preferably economic ones that target their government and highly important members of state.But they must be sanctions and not theft.The USA with Afghanistan assets being one example and perhaps even the UK with Iranian assets.At a time of war looting is a major issue unfortunately states also loot.Care also needs to be taken to distinguish people from state. Something media isn't particularly good at.No doubt we will see an increase in racist attacks. It would be nice to think that lessons were learnt after the increase in attacks on Asians but sadly I do not think this is the case.As mentioned before energy hasn't been sanctioned by Europe. Of course there is the new pipe line that is not in use yet. I can't help thinking many of the non-economic sanctions are for domestic political reasons. We need to be careful how we measure them.

Ed Robinson ● 1489d

Matt Palmer ● 1489d

Well, I think it's about time the Queen said just get on with it Bond.

Barbara Stevens ● 1491d

Andy, will they be using a glue gun.

Barbara Stevens ● 1491d

Get over yourself Matt

Andy Pike ● 1491d

"God knows I have disagreements with the views of some people on this forum but i dont remember ever calling for them to be killed."Now, now, lads. This is how wars could start.

David Ainsworth ● 1491d

"I note Germany is talking of expanding coal production to reduce reliance on Russian gas. Think we still have 200 years worth of coal under our feet."But the miners! Would you recreate "the enemy within" in order to defeat the enemy without?

David Ainsworth ● 1491d

Slightly odd to suggest we go glue ourselves to a road in Kiev if you dont want us to die.God knows I have disagreements with the views of some people on this forum but i dont remember ever calling for them to be killed.

Matt Palmer ● 1491d

"how about flying out to Ukraine and glueing themselves to the road to Kiyv."The massive convoy seems pretty stuck already. Prime target - but sadly not being shredded.

David Ainsworth ● 1491d

I have no desire to see anyone killed Matt.Exactly why i dislike the gluers of XL holding up emergency vehicles.

Andy Pike ● 1491d

would that help influence the UK government to act on climate change then Andy? Or just satisfy your desire to see well meaning, peaceful protesters killed?

Matt Palmer ● 1491d

My ref to the industrial revolution was mors about if the Greens and Gretas had been about then, they would have stopped it no doubt.As a total aside if the XR folk are doing nothing this weekend how about flying out to Ukraine and glueing themselves to the road to Kiyv.

Andy Pike ● 1491d

There's no reason why the industrial revolution didnt need to happen. Scientists have been warning about climate change since the early 90's, if we had taken gradual but consistent action since then we wouldnt be in the emergency situation we are in now.

Matt Palmer ● 1491d

I am not talking about prices of fuel, I am talking about availability.Of course the oil and gas prices are set internationally.  But still, having some of our own could be of help.  Also, consider that the US extracts a lot of oil and the petrol prices there are ridiculously cheap!Please, by all means, produce enough non-fossil fuels now to reduce prices.  But the reality is that a lot of people have petrol-based cars (electric are prohibitively expensive and dangerous.  I am not convinced that lithium batteries are the solution for the environment either!)Most lorries and vans that deliver our foods and medicines, as well as trades people, still drive diesel vehicles.What about airplanes?  Also, electricity for our homes.  Solar panels continue to be, sadly, very expensive indeed.  But I also understand that electricity is produced at power plants using generators run but combustion engines?

Ivonne Holliday ● 1491d

On the fuel issue I had this conversation with a pal who is standing as a green candidate in Merton in May. And asked him what his answer would be on ths doorstep,  it was very similar to Matt's but he didnt hold out hope that it would be accepted.Maybe a short term use with a commitment to cease one other forms had caught up? One wonders if people had thought this way 2_3 hundred years ago if the industrial revolution would ever have happened or whether we'd still be throwing buckets of urine out of upstairs windows. I note Germany is talking of expanding coal production to reduce reliance on Russian gas. Think we still have 200 years worth of coal under our feet.

Andy Pike ● 1491d

UK onshore oil&gas production sites have some of the highest standards in the world, much higher than Saudi for example, yet again and again planning permission is being refused due to councils, locals & activists hiding under the umbrella of 'climate change' when in most cases it's actually nimbyism. Although onshore O&G alone cant solve our energy issues, it's important imo to treat energy as a strategic resource, plus of course every barrel of oil the UK produces is less damaging to the climate than O&G from Saudi, Russia, etc

Adam Tripp ● 1491d

It isnt a solution Yvonne. "increasing fossil fuel production would have at best a "marginal effect" on UK consumer prices, the Climate Change Committee (CCC) cautioned in a letter to the business and energy secretary Kwasi Kwarteng, highlighting that oil and gas prices faced in the UK are set internationally.
https://news.sky.com/story/weaning-uk-off-fossil-fuels-not-increasing-domestic-production-best-way-to-avoid-high-energy-bills-climate-advisors-say-12550127 Kwasi Kwarteng was on LBC last week making this exact point!

Matt Palmer ● 1491d

I see the EU is now actually seizing assets - that's the sort of action that needs to be taken. Unlike the UK allowing people to sell their assets.I also see the EU is critisizing us for not going far enough, didnt take too long for those tables to turn did it?

Matt Palmer ● 1491d

I agree Matt, but we need a short term solution.  However much we hate the idea, for now and until the madman is finished, short term solutions are a must.Shale gas fills me with dread, though!For the future, we should be doing a lot more on renewables at the same time.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1491d

That wouldnt secure our energy supply would it? The oil and gas extracted would be sold on the international market at international prices.How about securing our energy supply by transitioning to renewables? That way we arent dependent on despots with big oil fields.

Matt Palmer ● 1491d

I guess that the war in Ukraine is leading to the creation of a lot of wealth.

David Ainsworth ● 1492d

So are you saying you are against any wealth creation here?  If we don’t earn anything how can we create anything.

Robert Wheeler ● 1492d

Sanctions include energy.  Ukraine has several nuclear power stations including another electrical station near the capped and domed Chernobyl of such fame and Russia's gas pipe to the west is going to be part of the sanctions.https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/23/opinions/nord-stream-2-germany-putin-gas-energy-hockenos/index.htmlIf we had all sorted out our homes better regarding insulation and ventilation in the years that Scientists had been telling Govts that there would be a problem with global warming and cooling there might not be such a hiatus over energy prices now.  It has nothing to do with my personal home insulation.  It is to do with the ideology of wealth creation here and a Russian dictator who wants to leave a legacy.

Philippa Bond ● 1492d

I was trying to find more detail on Khan's suggestion but there doesn't seem to be any apart from a mention of a residency test whatever that is.It looks like some of the data came from  CFPD which appears to any foreign address.But is there really any difference to a UK citizens renting out their London flat and living in Spain or even Gibraltar as opposed to Devon??https://www.centreforpublicdata.org/blog/new-data-property-in-england-amp-wales-owned-by-overseas-individuals

Ed Robinson ● 1496d

Perhaps we should look to maximise the extraction of oil in the north sea and shale gas on land.Oh no the Gretas wouldnt like it . Sorry strike that idea of securing our energy supplies.

Andy Pike ● 1496d

I don't think I was suggesting other than that? Laws, rules, etc should be applied equally for UK citizens. For those holding visas I think many governments retain an option for visas to be revoked by executive order, although one would expect decisions to be fair and applied without descrimination. In practice there may be different categories of visas with different conditions; it's usually difficult if one is stopped at a border to challenge a decision made at a point of entry.

Michael Ixer ● 1496d

Surely Michael such conditions as you mentioned should apply to all applicants and all UK citizens??Following on from the Anti-Semitism and Islamophobia scandals not to mention the recent case of Sinophobic you would think  Some MP's would be more careful.My concern is about ordinary citizens and  loose comments.Obviously not all Russian oligarch are equal either "£53,750 for writing a column in the Independent from 2013 to 2014" - I wonder who owned that paper??https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/who-bankrolls-your-mps-election-18924289https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Independenthttps://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2022-02-23/debates/8073B01E-6C2E-4416-9CC0-A109AD8A8E58/CounteringRussianAggressionAndTacklingIllicitFinanceInteresting

Ed Robinson ● 1496d

Looks like there could be movement to implement a SWIFT block, at least on some Russian bankshttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-60542433

Michael Ixer ● 1496d

Ed, I only touched on the background as you mentioned the policy went back decades. As some of my American friends would say, we are where we are :-) 

Michael Ixer ● 1496d

Ed, yes, I noted the prices weren't fixed. 

Michael Ixer ● 1496d

Yes Michael it does go back to Thatcher and importing Polish coal.It doesn't matter where we physically get our gas from, my understanding is that it is bought on a open market and the that market will be significantly impacted if sanctions on gas were applied.It is not cause but sanctions I thought we are discussing.https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-24/biden-spares-russia-s-crucial-energy-exports-from-sanctions

Ed Robinson ● 1496d

Ed, as I read it, Chris Bryant did retract that point about recinding UK citizenship for those with dual nationality? I agreed with you it would be a dangerous path to go down. However, it seems reasonable, in addition to other circumstances of impropriety, to reconsider visas where it can be demonstrated someone obtained money in dubious circumstances, laundered it, etc then used it for investments to gain that visa. 

Michael Ixer ● 1496d

From the UK's point of view around 70-80% of its gas supply is piped from the North Sea; the larger amount from the UK sector, the remainder from Norway. The balance is shipped as liquid gas from various sources with around 3-4 % coming from Russia. Prices will rise significantly but supplies are probably secure; although is anything certain?https://inews.co.uk/news/gas-how-much-uk-get-russia-ukraine-sanctions-nord-stream-2-what-mean-prices-1480778Yes, one can argue the UK should have moved faster towards renewable energy supplies and taken measures to reduce energy consumption for ecological reasons but we haven't. (One could also argue we should have set up a sovereign fund to investigate our North Sea gas profits for the future but Ms Thatcher didn't; she dispanded that part of BNOC from what I remember?) Anyway, as Robert says, the real cause of the current crisis is an autocratic, ruthless, megalomaniac throwing a tantrum and those suffering the most are the Ukrainian people.

Michael Ixer ● 1496d

David the UK is Northern Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales so that is a nonsense question.My understanding is that under the GFA the UK guarantees those in NI the right to dual citizenship.If the UK wants to ban other all other dual citizenship then I have no issue. As far as I know the UK does not have such a ban.If citizens have broken the law they should be prosecuted whoever they are.My point was on UK citizenship and equality under the law. Any attempt to suggest that there is somehow a lower class of citizenship depending on your heritage should be fiercely resisted.We can have sanctions and of course we need good anti laundering laws. But those laws should apply to all citizens. Why wouldn't they??

Ed Robinson ● 1496d

Philippa this has nothing to do with insulation.  This is about a despotic human being trying to recover his own history.  Children and human beings are sleeping on cold subway floors while you go to sleep in your comfortable bed.  Nothing to do with your own comfortable insulation.

Robert Wheeler ● 1496d

The USA did not allow dual citizenship until 1967. Quite a few countries do not allow it. Surely dual citizenship gives dual citizens extra rights which most of their fellow-citizens do not have?I heard two days ago of some Ukrainians of the Hungarian minority crossing the border out of Ukraine, and some saying that it was not their fight so they were leaving. I found that disconcerting. "Who would have thought that should be in a position where we have to defend the idea that all UK citizens should be subjected to the same laws?"Are UK citizens subjected to the same laws in Northern Ireland or Scotland, as in England and Wales?

David Ainsworth ● 1496d

And we would not need so much energy if we had succeeded in better insulating our homes.Ukraine has several nuclear plants and just look at what happened to Chernobyl - which had nuclear fallout across several countries across the world including ours.

Philippa Bond ● 1496d

The energy policy issue goes back decades UK government's have had decades to address the issue but would rather we just import energy.I saw several reports the last few days here was one:https://www.thenational.wales/news/19949971.chris-bryant-deletes-tweet-calling-uk-russians-choose-nationality/

Ed Robinson ● 1496d

Hello Ed,I have not heard about the suggestions from some Labour MPs.  Where can I find information on these, please?As for dependence of gas and oil from Russia happened because the North Sea provided no more oil?

Ivonne Holliday ● 1496d

This is all a bit of nonsense.The best sanction would be on gas and oil -  but we can't do that because we are dependent on it. Not having a energy policy for decades has left up very dependent on imports.Lots of more nonsense from some Labour MPs (who have had their own expensses scandals) suggesting some British citizen should have certain rights taken away based on their country of origin.A very slippery slope. Who would have thought that should be in a position where we have to defend the idea that all UK citizens should be subjected to the same laws?

Ed Robinson ● 1496d

Didn't say I agreed with the exclusions, although Germany has a major problem if it can't purchase gas from Russia.

Michael Ixer ● 1496d

That's ok then

Andy Pike ● 1496d

As those of us in favour of the EU have always said, it's a union of sovereign nations; that's it's strength, the ability to disagree peacefully on individual points but have a general consensus of agreement.Sue, I wouldn't try and use your SWITCH card for money laundering, aside from no longer being valid the AML rules will spot you're not an oligarch - unless you're hiring something :-) I'm not quite sure under SWIFT governance rules how many participants would have to agree to exclude Russia or whether a country who wants to continue trading with Russia; for example, China or even India, could veto such a proposal? It's an international organisation so it's not just the US and European members who have an interest; also, a lot might also depend on Belgian company law where I believe it's incorporated.

Michael Ixer ● 1496d

"Money before morals."Thank goodness that, here in Londongrad, we act otherwise.

David Ainsworth ● 1496d

Disunited EU becoming ever more apparent. Germany is reluctant to impose the ultimate sanction to ban Russia from the SWITCH system because it has been in bed with Russia for decades with its reliance on cheap Russian gas. Money before morals.

Sue Hammond ● 1496d