Forum Topic

Anarchy in the UK?

In the past month we've had another two cases where juries have supported defendants claiming justifiable reasons for what many, including that government, consider illegal activity (the Coulston four trial and the XR DLR three). Is this indicating a major disunity in the Kingdom between a rightwing autocratic government and the citizens, keeping in mind that although the current government has a 48 seat majority it won less than half of the popular vote (43.6%) and nearly a third of voters abstained (turn out was 67.3%). Given the proposed tightening of laws restricting protests alongside other legislation that may reduce citizens' rights can we expect juries supporting defendants against laws they consider unfair when direct action has been taken? Are the current actions by government - PPE contracts determined to be illegal, seemingly ignoring lockdown rules followed by the majority, dubious funding of redecorating the #10 flat, etc - undermining the rule of law in the UK?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_United_Kingdom_general_election

Michael Ixer ● 1245d20 Comments

Sorry Mr Pike. I also meant to say thanks for the info.

David Ainsworth ● 1244d

Lawyers said no?Did WBC consider getting the bulldozers in for the houses owned by the better class of rioter, I wonder?

David Ainsworth ● 1244d

I find it interesting that there are often calls on here for riots. Lucilles post of 17/01 at 17.06beven says the lack of such a riot is pathetic. There were similar calls after the Brexit vote, and on numerous other occasions prior to leaving the EU,same person?? One of the big problems with riots is that they have unintended consequences. In the London riots the burning down of Reeves corner (wanton thuggery) , the burning of property with people inside and fleeing for their lives ( attempted murder?) The up turning and burning of assorted vehicles. The trashing of shops to allow looting and theft.So lets see what could happen in Putney. Lets say the assembly point for the rioters is outside Lucilles house and before they sef off they need to warm up and say turn over a few cars (lucilles a supporter so she wont mind if its hers) set one or two alight and for good measure lets smash a few windows on the houses ( again lets use Lucilles) and maybe torch thd odd property ( you guessed it) presumably you are still supporting the rioters Lucille. Then off we go into Putney to cause havoc. Word has spread and thieves and thugs ate coming from all areas to do a bit of looting and smashing up of local businesses under cover of the riot. Ask them what their cause is, they havnt got a clue but will sell you some trainers at half price.After a couple of hours mayhem they go off home and the good people of Putney are left to clear up the mess and reflect on a few more lost businesses in the high street. Ah well we can blame that on the Council and poor air quality later. Then just wait for the arrested ones court dates to go and support them as it was a noble cause and hope the jury agree.Was anything achieved? What was the noble cause again?

Andy Pike ● 1244d

It was not

Andy Pike ● 1244d

I wonder whether this was actually carried out?https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/aug/12/london-riots-wandsworth-council-eviction"Wandsworth council's leader, Ravi Govindia, said that, in signing a tenancy agreement, tenants had agreed not to take part in activities that could jeopardise their housing. The council felt it had the power to terminate the agreement against the tenant, despite the fact that she was not involved in the riots and her son has only been charged, not been convicted."The mother can challenge the notice-seeking process," he said. "The tenancy agreement does not just apply to the mother but the entire household."He said she would be deemed to have made herself deliberately homeless. "Then our obligation would be at an end. She signed the contract in which she and her household would agree the terms of the contract.""A broader look at this idea:-https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/aug/16/evict-rioters-families

David Ainsworth ● 1244d

It was swift which seems to be the main concerned.Unfortunately swift is not alway the best justice.How long is the average appeal I wonder??I guess they didn't have the fancy lawyers offering their services either. "Rapid riot prosecutions more important than long sentences, says Keir Starmer"https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/jul/03/riot-prosecutions-sentences-keir-starmer

Ed Robinson ● 1245d

It seems disproportionate for pleading guilty and a first offence. The article has no context, was it considered to be aggravated by being part of a mob rioting; was it appealed?

Michael Ixer ● 1245d

Thanks Ivonne but I no longer have the physical nor mental energy to be a revolutionary 😴

Lucille Grant ● 1245d

No it isn't fair imho.

Lucille Grant ● 1245d

"Is six months in prison fair punishment for stealing bottled water?In the aftermath of this week's riots, a 23-year-old student with no previous convictions was jailed for the maximum permitted six months after pleading guilty to stealing bottles of water worth £3.50 from Lidl in Brixton. Do you think the punishment is fair?"https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/poll/2011/aug/12/riots-water-theft-punishment

Ed Robinson ● 1245d

"It is not in the British blood to do so"I'm not so sure about that but what I would say is it is very dangerous for a society for people to feel politicians do not reflect their interests and who have little security when it comes to accommodation, jobs, energy prices etc.With both main parties backing more authoritarian measures while at the same time just looking out for homeowners, landlords and pensioners, even our passive younger generations may have a limit!https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_riots_in_Londonhttps://www.irishtimes.com/news/a-guide-to-british-riots-1980-2011-1.881635

Ed Robinson ● 1245d

"At least with governments we get a chance to oust them every 5 years."Huh, hooves in the far distance and stable-door quietly closing. "Every 5 years" is tens of billions of pounds too late.

David Ainsworth ● 1245d

Hello Lucille,For one, you are not too old and certainly not decrepit!!!  Why have there been no riots?  It is not in the British blood to do so.  We had the poll tax riots in the 1980s but, hand in heart, people in the UK are so disillusioned and tired that there is virtually no strength left.  Sad but true.Lying and deviousness are the name of the game these days.But I think the destruction of the NHS will bring people out, in the numbers similar to the Brexit protest some years ago, 7 million and they were disregarded?  But it is true to say that "as things become more commonplace they become more accepted" or should I say, endured?

Ivonne Holliday ● 1245d

But, Andy, that's the point. One can agree or disagree with these actions but they arose out of frustration with the system driven by a commited belief not as an attempt to commit a senseless act of violence or criminal damage. Perhaps misguided, possibly not planned (certainly with regard to the Colston statue) but a result of losing confidence in elected authority? 

Michael Ixer ● 1245d

Well said, Lucille.

Jane Carter ● 1245d

I am at a loss as to why there haven't been riots over this governments lack of keeping to the laws they instigated by holding parties at 10 Downing Street while their constituents were dying of Covid. In any other country there would be. Pathetic. What were the police doing standing guard outside No 10 while these parties were going on? And no, we don't seriously need Sue Gray to investigate/ brush-off.Before  anyone suggests I lead the charge (!) I've had  my years of protesting thanks very much and am too old and decrepit to chain myself to the gates at Westminster.

Lucille Grant ● 1245d

Somehow I doubt a large number agree with these 2 court decisions. So I have more fears about these guys getting away with it. At least with governments we get a chance to oust them every 5 years.

Andy Pike ● 1245d

@Andy. I wasn't expressing an opinion either way. Just asking a question as to whether the government could lose control if it persists with its current direction and attitudes given there could (and I stress "could be" not "are") be a majority of people who disagree with it.

Michael Ixer ● 1245d

Let's all go out and cause mayhem and then claim popular support. We'll soon be wishing the rule of law was followed. They want to be careful if they or their mates do it again you never  know who might be on the jury. Could just be 12 of us who do give a f...

Andy Pike ● 1245d

I think the answer to your question Michael, is a resounding yes!

Ivonne Holliday ● 1245d