Forum Topic

Clogged Roads.

Just an idea and happy to be shot down in flames:How about every motorist given a max number of "free" road usage. Exceeding allowance gets charged at xzy per mile. Easy to calculate as miles clocked when MOT'ed...cars that don't warrent MOTs can still be judged when they do (number of miles on clock divided by 3 less annual allowance).People who live in the sticks get perhaps more "free" miles for obvious reason. Town dwellers less because of more available transport/shop accessability.I drive ish £8000pa. A fair bit for work but when I analize my other mileage, yes I could have walked or taken public transport. I don't because car sitting outside and more convenient.If however I was rationed chances are I'd "bank" my toll free miles for a trip to see friends in the home counties when travel not so easy.

Simon Knight ● 1280d59 Comments

Barbara - I did not start the thread but it is a subject that has been discussed before and as the OP says he often uses his car just because he has it.  It's a sensible one.  We need to find better ways to easily travel and encourage not discourage active travel.  It could be one of several methods to do this - other ones being better alternatives to what we have now.

Philippa Bond ● 1267d

https://www.peddlemywheels.com/family-and-cargo-bikes

Philippa Bond ● 1269d

My worry about cargo bikes is that they seem unregulated and some may even be illegal. No licence or insurance required.I guess it is just the direction that the UK is going in regarding regulation and enforcement.

Ed Robinson ● 1269d

Another alternativehttps://tfl.gov.uk/modes/dial-a-ride/

Philippa Bond ● 1269d

Sorry, Ivonne. I was in a hurry and did think of expanding "ice" but as Ed had already used the abbreviation thought I'd stick with it. Going back to Simon's original suggestion: I think that's a potential solution for congestion but doesn't get over the problems of parking, whether that's at home or during journeys. It doesn't resolve the issue that there are too many cars for the road space available whether they're at rest or in transit. I'm not saying any one thing is a complete solution: car sharing helps but won't work for all; well and sensible scheduled deliveries can assist; and safe, cheap, frequent public transport is necessary as well. Cheap or free community transport to hospitals and medical centres seem necessary as well. Fewer private cars would make more road space available for trades people like Barbara's husband who need their vehicles for work purposes; in Simon's scheme they could be allocated more or even unlimited miles? There's also the option that more local deliveries could be done using those bicycles that carry large loads? 

Michael Ixer ● 1269d

Yes Michael spot on, typo by me, should have said ice cars :(All the efficiency tests for ice cars are done with warmed up engines.One of the reasons the true emissions differ so much from the claimed emissions.A lot of home deliveries also come from more centralised dark stores, which I prefer, but it does mean the journeys are not really comparable. I.e small trucks from dark stores to various addresses compared to large lorries to more local stores and small private vehicles to those stores.

Ed Robinson ● 1269d

Found the answer.  ICE: internal combustion engine(s)

Ivonne Holliday ● 1269d

What are "non ice cars"?  Michael you mention electric cars as an example.  But non ice cars?

Ivonne Holliday ● 1269d

Ed, is that true: "non ice cars are not efficient for short trips"? I would have thought electric (ie non ice cars) would be more efficient for short trips, or more the case that ice cars would be less efficient because of the need to warm up? But I might be missing something.

Michael Ixer ● 1269d

With grocery deliveries I think it is a bit more complicated than that. A lot more efficient than individual vehicles but what the actual ratio is I have no idea. Definitely doesn't replace them all.The customer selects quite a specific delivery slot obviously within the company's capacity to deliver and obviously the company will organise those deliveries as effectively as possible to meet the customer's time.If the delivery slot wasn't so specific then more efficient routes and delivery order would take up less road capacity.It's still probably a lot greener as non ice cars are not efficient for short trips and all vehicles required production etc.Perhaps when the grocery companies give more incentives for wider flexible slots the efficiency balance will shift more towards home deliveries.However most or all give discounts for early or late slots so perhaps any core daytime delivery is so inefficient it is not possible?

Ed Robinson ● 1269d

no but if one van replaces twenty car trips to the supermarket that can only be a good thing surely.

Matt Palmer ● 1269d

Whether the same vehicle or not it's still going to a different area, it's not staying in the same road going backwards and forwards.

Barbara Stevens ● 1269d

I dont disagree with anything you say Barbara apart from the bit about shopping being delivered and going to hospital. One Sainsburies van will deliver to multiple households, it's not one for one in the car stakes, same with taxi's taking people to hospital.

Matt Palmer ● 1269d

Yes Michael, if you have an eye problems, obvious one would have thought not to drive. But some people have a problem walking. So you have to get to a bus stop in the first place, walk afterwards. Michael, have you actually seen the speed people drive lately, you can hardly get out of 2nd gear. If people can't see properly they shouldn't be driving. But if people want shopping delivered, that's a vehicle, just not yours. If you get a lift to Hospital that's a vehicle just not yours. So you want a window cleaner, boiler man, builder,plumber,electrician. It goes on and on. Home help.

Barbara Stevens ● 1269d

Who's moaning about them being clogged, you Philippa. Yes Philippa, road pricing, something you won't have to pay as you keep telling everybody you don't have a car. If you think that will be simple like paying for parking. A meter in the P B Rd, wouldn't let my other half cancel his when he was leaving after doing a job for somebody, so cost him £13 for a couple of hours yesterday. Pile on the prices everybody who doesn't pay.What a bl--dy liberty.

Barbara Stevens ● 1269d

There appears to be an increase in the information concerning this online as more areas of the country run this type of transport.  https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/buses/demand-responsive-bus-serviceCompanies such as Arriva and Via run services.

Philippa Bond ● 1269d

Should read "One wonders if this particular issue on public transport reflects a 

Michael Ixer ● 1272d

Ed. Couldn't agree more that public transport must be safe for all. One wonders if this is particulars on public transport reflects a wider problem in society?

Michael Ixer ● 1272d

Michael, we may consider it excellent public transport but London seems to be out the top ten safe cities for travelling by lone females. TFL have launched a campaign this year to reduce sexual harassment, although I'm not sure how that will translate to extra staff given the current finances.If we want a green city we can't ignore 50% of the population not to mention the fact that we are potentially missing out economically too.Of course removing company cars from Mayor, Met Police & TFL executives may give them a better insight as well as giving the public confidence to use public transport.https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2021/october/new-campaign-launches-to-stamp-out-sexual-harassment-on-public-transport

Ed Robinson ● 1272d

I'm afraid Michael a lot of young people don't see red lights either. Also young cyclists.

Barbara Stevens ● 1272d

Ed. The freedom and independence that cars offer is a good and valid point. I remember when I was living in Essex in the late '60s my mates and I couldn't wait to get our licences when we reached the age of 17. Of course, that was mainly because the local bus services were atrocious and trains limited except for commuting to London, and bicycles were great for cycling to school but not so cool for an evening out with friends (and we did designate drivers to return from the pub). However, these days with excellent public transport in London I don't feel restricted by not owning a car. There's also the problem of elderly drivers not realising they're past it - I can think of one person in their 90s who had a clean licence until they started not noticing red light :-(

Michael Ixer ● 1272d

I believe those Comcab black cabs are the ones used by people using the the London Taxicard system.  They are the ones you can phone up and book.  https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/services/taxicard

Philippa Bond ● 1272d

Might have been Parliament, Ed. Before he drove in the Security looked over his cab.

Barbara Stevens ● 1272d

"..calls to take Neil Kinnock etc. to the Houses of Commons"Barbara - never a good deed goes unpunished  😂😂😂Being serious what is not mentioned in this thread is the freedom and independence road use gives people. Of course there is a balance but with very little visibility of police and even stations being unmanned some joined up thinking is needed.Safe, low crime cities will be reaping the green benefits of technology long before the UK.

Ed Robinson ● 1273d

There must be something the matter with my computer or Putney Forum.

Barbara Stevens ● 1273d

Ed, my son was a COM Cab Black Cab. You had a number to ring and you were allowed so much each year, not just for hospitals. I think you paid a few pound instead of the the full price. Then my son would claim back the full price. Also he got  calls to take Neil Kinnock etc. to the Houses of Commons COM Cab have a phone in the cab and could just get called to go and collect somebody, while other cabs are still sitting on the Rank.

Barbara Stevens ● 1273d

Ed, my son was a COM Cab Black Cab. You had a number to ring and you were allowed so much each year, not just for hospitals. I think you paid a few pound instead of the the full price. Then my son would claim back the full price. Also he got  calls to take Neil Kinnock etc. to the Houses of Commons COM Cab have a phone in the cab and could just get called to go and collect somebody, while other cabs are still sitting on the Rank.

Barbara Stevens ● 1273d

Ed, my son was a COM Cab Black Cab. You had a number to ring and you were allowed so much each year, not just for hospitals. I think you paid a few pound instead of the the full price. Then my son would claim back the full price. Also he got  calls to take Neil Kinnock etc. to the Houses of Commons COM Cab have a phone in the cab and could just get called to go and collect somebody, while other cabs are still sitting on the Rank.

Barbara Stevens ● 1273d

Ed, my son was a COM Cab Black Cab. You had a number to ring and you were allowed so much each year, not just for hospitals. I think you paid a few pound instead of the the full price. Then my son would claim back the full price. Also he got  calls to take Neil Kinnock etc. to the Houses of Commons COM Cab have a phone in the cab and could just get called to go and collect somebody, while other cabs are still sitting on the Rank.

Barbara Stevens ● 1273d

There is a section in the link below "Non-emergency patient transport services" which as Liam & Barbara say - you need to contact your GP if you think you may be eligible:https://www.nhs.uk/nhs-services/hospitals/going-into-hospital/how-to-organise-transport-to-and-from-hospital/

Ed Robinson ● 1273d

I believe hospital transport has to be booked initially via your gp, and once you are in the system then it can apply to further appointments.  At least that is how it used to work at Queen Mary's when my wife worked there.

Liam Jones ● 1273d

Ed. That point rather got overshadowed by the rest of the post, and it didn't say "free" from my reading. I thought one could arrange transport to hospital - I remember seeing a neighbour being picked up in a minibus, and I'm sure I've seen something about it on letters for hospital appointments (but never read that bit as buses, trains, taxis have been an option)? I agree that a free cab service would be good although hospitals seem to expect one to arrange one's own transport, including getting lifts from friends and relations. I suspect it's an area that's been subject to cuts over the years.

Michael Ixer ● 1273d

Michael Barbara makes point about the free black cab service sounds sensible to me.Of course there is the big society but a professional vetted reliable service seems to make economic and practical sense for those unable to make their own way to health appointments.The return trip is also a good point. Difficult to predict how long some of these appointments take.

Ed Robinson ● 1273d

Barbara. Your post doesn't really take into account other people's circumstances. Firstly, if someone's going to hospital for an eye examination or operation, or any serious operation, driving isn't an option so car ownership is irrelevant. I choose not to own a car because it was a waste of money having a car sitting outside in the road for two, sometimes three, weeks without being used; public transport was so much more convenient - and I couldn't commute into the City by car - while I could use a car club for those times when I needed to ferry elderly relatives or friends around, take things to the rubbish dump, etc. (I must admit in the days when I had a fully expensed company car - which I needed to travel to obscure manufacturing and distribution sites - with private mileage paid and a parking space in Westminster I hardly ever used public transport.)Of course not maintaining a car it means I don't worry about the cost of an occasional taxi or minicab, and if I want to I can thrash an Aston, Lambo or Ferrari around a track or airfield with no speed limits :-)Perhaps the pandemic might mean a temporary change for some but I'm comfortable to travel on trains, buses and tubes, particularly if masks are mandatory and I'm vaccinated.

Michael Ixer ● 1273d

Not stupid at all and it can be a share not necessarily the way you suggest which doesn't sound organised. There isn't room for everyone to have and drive a car all at the same time so you can't really moan about roads being clogged if that is what you are doing.  Other users have a right to travel on the roads and pavements.  As the OP says there is the inclination to use your car just because it's there when you could quite easily walk or cycle for some trips.  Road pricing might be the incentive for active travel.  Sharing with neighbours may be more convenient and cheaper than using a car club.  Many people in London don't own cars and for many that is a choice - nothing to do with whether they can afford one or not.  The aspiration to own a car is not the same as it used to be.  However there are a lot of essential workers who may be low paid and for whom motor transport is necessary.Many cycle and walk ie use active travel as well as drive - it's horses for courses.

Philippa Bond ● 1273d

Really stupid, with most young people still working from home, why expect a neighbour to buy a car and you expect them to give you a lift everywhere. If you really have a Medical condition you used to be able to get a letter from your Doctor, so you could ring a number and get a Black Cab COM CAB cheaper. Why would you want to be in close contact sharing a car, or want to use it when they do. Yes there are companies who will take an elderly person to hospital. But you still have to get back afterwards.  Get a blasted car if you want one, everybody is dying of not just fumes,  it's really stupid. It's people telling other people not to get a car just because they can't afford one.

Barbara Stevens ● 1273d

Yes, I think we need to reassess our desire to own our own of everything and I don't think there is just one answer to suit everyone.Parents in law when they gave up their car used to get taxis to the local hospital etc but the main hospital for eye apptmts etc was an hour there and back - and that is expensive.  It became too complicated to use the train.  In a small town you will get to know your taxi company and they will recognise you when you phone up.  Attendance allowance could be used for this.Pre-pandemic in outer london, a friend was part of a voluntary group giving lifts to elderly neighbours wanting to go to the hospital or the hairdressers or chiropodists etc.

Philippa Bond ● 1273d

Article today in the Sunday time about local, i.e. same street or neighbour car sharing. Sunday Times. Behind a pay wall but you’ll get the jist: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/who-needs-a-car-we-share-one-with-the-neighbours-3vwf8p3dh

Freddie Francis ● 1274d

So how about making it much cheaper and easier to use a car club car?  It is already a great saving not to have the hassle of taxing, insuring and worrying about the parking a car.  Delivery vehicles can't pass or pull over to park when so many streets are lined with parked cars.When there is no or little hospital transport and transport operating to the places people want to go, people hang onto their cars.  I agree that charging may make people think about more active travel especially for those short trips.

Philippa Bond ● 1274d

Should personal wealth be the only thing that buys entitlement?  Doesn't this pandemic and Brexit show us that people important to the safe and smooth running of everything important to our lives aren't all well paid and appreciated enough?Other countries subsidise travel more.  Offering better alternatives is a good way to attract change.

Philippa Bond ● 1275d

Simon Jenkins has an article in the Evening Standard that mentions the lack of control over roadworks.Anyone that has contacted TFL concerning their Red Routes will know that they just do not seem to care - even if it concerns safety. There appears to be no TFL guidelines that the utilities have to abide by when operating on a red route which I find bizaar.Utility companies can place barriers across cycle lanes and most of the carriageway in several places even a mile from the actual roadworks - unnecessarily increasing the danger to cyclists and it doesn't concern TFL.Perhaps TFL should hand back responsibility to the local authorities?https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/london-fallen-love-lanes-alleys-as-main-roads-clog-up-b972383.html

Ed Robinson ● 1276d

Michael. It's good to know that you didn't have a problem with booking a car club car.  With less street parking and more shared car use there would be more space.  I also wonder how economical and well sorted online deliveries are?  I remember some time bavk someone commenting pn seeing a delivery lorry going down the street twice.  I came across two Amazon vans parked next but one to each other in a small street while they were delivering.  We don't need everything so fast - well not always.  Just like utilities get into trouble for digging up the street one after another perhaps there should be spme sort pf same sort of penalty for visiting the same area twice within a crrtsin amount of time.  What was wrong with say a Wednesday John Lewis in Putney, Thursday Park Royal etc?

Philippa Bond ● 1276d

Sorry I know it's off topic but yes it's a great ride.I've gotten the train out to Windsor a couple of times and then cycled all the way back to Putney along the tow path (apart from a couple of bits where you have to come off in deference to the queen!). There's also a bit where you have to put your bike on a 'ferry' to cross sides which is a nice novelty.

Matt Palmer ● 1278d

Sounds like a good recommendation Matt. I haven't cycled past Kingston on the towpath. The worse bit has to be the cobbled bit in Barnes near the Brewery. Almost ended up in the river - can get very slippery there.Perhaps instead of paying for driving miles they could be earned by non driving  travel?

Ed Robinson ● 1279d

An interesting idea, Simon, it's clear that we can't go on with current levels of congestion, greenhouse gas production and pollution. An alternative method is road pricing, under which all vehicles have an electronic device to record when/where they are driving; they would be charged according to the traffic level at the time, which would incentivise people to avoid driving at peak periods. It's an idea that's  been around for a long time, the first real attempt to devise it was in the Smeed Report of 1962, but it wasn't really practical until the development of electronic tracking. Whatever means is used to ration road use, it's clear that it's an idea whose time has come.

Richard Carter ● 1279d

Philippa, I've only used a Zipcar once during the pandemic - a trip to the emergency vets Good Friday 2020 (there was a lot of meowing in both directions). No problem booking a car at short notice but that might have been because the pandemic. Normally I would have booked well in advance for a bank holiday. I never had problems getting a car although on a couple of occasions I had to go to Southfields or Wandsworth. I think they've increased the number of Flex cars and reduced the number in fixed locations but that could be my perception! I mainly used Zipcar for out of town trips, ferrying elderly relatives around, trips to vets, visits to the rubbish dumps - or a combination of those ... 

Michael Ixer ● 1279d

I should also point out that the nearest one to Putney is in West Byfleet. 25 mins in a car or 2 hours by bike and i rode there and back twice in December.Was a lovely ride, all the way along the Thames towpath and then down the river Wey. Highly recommend.And no I didnt have any IT equipment with me on that day.

Matt Palmer ● 1279d

The last care home I needed to get to was in Plymouth, i like a good bike ride but that's a bit far.

Matt Palmer ● 1279d

Perhaps a cargo bike Matt?Although I'm not sure where you stand on insurance.I saw one today with the driver constantly looking at their phone and just ignoring red lights. Makes you wonder who would pay out if there was an accident.You are right from an efficiency point of view it makes little sense for most cars to be parked, slowly depreciating, rusting and becoming obsolete.

Ed Robinson ● 1279d

I use Zipcar on a fairly regular basis and never have any issues getting a car, there are 4 within a 10 min walk of my house.Before Andy goes off on one and accuses me of hypocrisy, the reason I have to use a car is we install IT systems for care homes. I can't really get on a train with a ton of laptops/desktops/monitors etc.

Matt Palmer ● 1279d

I wonder if there are any changes that users of car clubs could suggest to increase their uptake.  I know that Michael Ixer was using them but I have also heard someone else say that they wouldn't use them because they were never available when wanted.Well, does the company know when it was that they were wanted and weren't available I ask myself.  Do people let the company know or do they just do the British thing and mutter and walk away?

Philippa Bond ● 1279d

Demand Responsive Transport is a good idea. Unfortunately the couple of trials that there were in London I think came to an end because of the pandemic.  This happened when they needed to be better advertised and allowed to grow to fill the space in the market.

Philippa Bond ● 1279d

Simon. Sounds a good idea for discussion. Blue badge holders could have additional miles or exemptions; however, blue badges are linked to people not cars so there's a lot of details to work out! (Similarly car club usage would need to be linked back to individuals but with electronic ignition and smart keys, etc that's not insurmountable?)

Michael Ixer ● 1279d

Ivonne: As a Blue Badge holder you'd still get your miles allowance. Furthermore you'd still get free parking.Alan: Yes I can see your logic but that would penalise those who drive mainly for work purposes but within the "free mile" quota.As said the Devil is in the detail.

Simon Knight ● 1279d

I do admit the Devil is in the detail!I'll let more people qualified than me sort the detail.As said just an idea.

Simon Knight ● 1280d

Let's be clear if it is a tax it should ideally be progressive and have an elements built in to underpin its purpose.Are we trying to solve congestion, pollution, raise money or a combination? It would be good to have a honest conversation.With TFL finances in amess for a variety of reasons it will not be long before bus services are cut. I have no idea why we are running 1980 style bus services in 2021 anway. Swapping out full sized cars for equivalent electrical cars was never going to solve the congestion issue. Electric cars run on 40-60% gas generated electricity anyway).Road pricing schemes do tend to be favour the well off.The Barnes "Green Shuttle" mentioned on the front page of SW15 gives an idea of the route we need to take. Small, green, smart communal shuttles. Some that will pick you up and other you use like e-scooters/e-bikes. But all small footprint low top speed designed for urban roads not 80 mph motorway.The Barnes one does look a bit crude - some very interesting ones arriving soon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zu0373D6cPkhttp://www.putneysw15.com/default.asp?section=community&link=http://neighbournet.com/server/common/hambridge023.htm

Ed Robinson ● 1280d

As a blue badge holder I find lextra charges to be unfair punishment.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1280d

sounds very reasonable to me.

Matt Palmer ● 1280d

It would be easier to tax fuel more to achieve a similar thing. With electric cars there was an argument to tax tyres to limit use!

Alan Sherman ● 1280d