Forum Topic

Wearing a face covering - or not...

I was pleased to find on a visit to Sainsbury's in Werter Road the other day that everyone there was wearing a mask. Not so good in the LRR Sainsbury's Local yesterday, and when I politely asked one maskless woman to wear hers, she claimed that she was exempt. When I asked her on what grounds her exemption was based, she smugly declared that it was "a personal matter" - in other words, she was too important to bother with rules for the little people.What experience have others found of mask wearing or otherwise in Putney shops (or public transport, for that matter)?

Richard Carter ● 1521d109 Comments

If your main concern is asking me to wear a face mask and you must be vaccinated you obviously do not under the bigger picture. Question where you actually get your information from, once you do some digging not  using Google or MSM (BBC) you will see how censorship  and data manipulation has distorted the actual facts… thank you for listening, stay safe

Paul Beer ● 1513d

If you sing you don't have to wear a mask. Because the Government said. So walk in the shop singing next time.

Barbara Stevens ● 1513d

Perhaps he was having a quick slurp.

Barbara Stevens ● 1515d

I think that leaping should be banned in Sainsbury's. When they suddenly pop up and leap it scares the bejesus out of me! So yes, ban those annoying leapers.

Mark Phillips ● 1515d

In Waitrose this afternoon their security man loitering by the booze shelves was not wearing a mask.

Elizabeth Balsom ● 1515d

It certainly is Plan B to be reviewed in 2 or 3 weeks time.I should think the NHS App has an enormous demand at the moment. I hope it will be up and running properly very soon!

Ivonne Holliday ● 1517d

In the meantime it's Plan B. Just notice the Covid Passport functionality on the NHS App doesn't seem to be working properly now people are going to need them. Or has it failed with all the demand to generate them? 

Michael Ixer ● 1517d

From BBC's website in the rolling commentary"BJ says we must be humble in the face of the virus.He says as soon as it becomes clear that boosters are capable of holding the Omicron variant "then we will be able to move forward as before".He calls on everyone to play their part......"From House of Cards:  You may think so but I could not possibly comment!

Ivonne Holliday ● 1517d

His arrogance will let him announce anything. I guess Ms Stratton will be blamed now she's been dismissed, sorry, I mean resigned. It's Schrödinger's Party: it both happened and didn't happened (I nicked that from Facebook) until someone can find the right box (room?) to look into. I don't think Mr Brown and his friends on here will be impressed. One can't deny that it's difficult to believe anything Johnson says but Sage predictions in the leaked minutes sound pessimistic but a lot is inference from genetic sequencing; however, given the time lag on deaths/hospital-admissions/symptoms from initial infection and what appears to be a high transmission rate I suppose caution in necessary?

Michael Ixer ● 1517d

Will he have the nerve to do so following the uproar of the Christmas 2020 party at No. 10 which he neither denied or admitted?  Of course, said he, COVID rules were not broken..... 

Ivonne Holliday ● 1517d

I see Johnson is going to give a press conference at 6pm today. Announcement of Plan B? 

Michael Ixer ● 1517d

I wonder what the reaction will be if, as rumour has it, Boris Johnson is about to announce Plan B.....

Ivonne Holliday ● 1517d

In political science we were taught that Britain enjoyed a multi-party system. Seems Johnson took the idea to heart.

Alexander MacLeod ● 1517d

In political science we were taught that Britain enjoyed a multi-party system. Seems Johnson took the idea to heart.

Alexander MacLeod ● 1517d

Details are emerging. I don't think there is any suggestion Johnson was at the party but he does seem to have been less than accurate describing what took place.  I guess it will be up to the Met police to ascertain who attended the party and what charges can be brought. 

Michael Ixer ● 1518d

Angela Rayner the well known former DPP??I'm not sure Parliamentary rules are relevant outside Parliament but surely lying is irrelevant - either he believes the law has been broken or not.What is he calling Johnson to apologize for in that case???

Ed Robinson ● 1518d

Angela Rayner, Strarmers deputy, has written to Simon Case (the Cabinet Secretary) concerning referring the matter to the Met police. It's one of those stories where things were gradually unravelling and I guess parliamentary rules stop Starmer from accusing Johnson of lying? 

Michael Ixer ● 1518d

Yes Michael, even Keir Starmer has demanded that the government make an apology - which sounded a bit weak.Does that mean Starmer believes the party did not break any laws but was poor timing? If he believed it to be otherwise should he not have called for prosecutions???

Ed Robinson ● 1518d

Ed. Yes, as is discussed a lot in information security,  culture is set by the actions and examples of leaders of an organisation.  If we want a positive message that's followed by all in the pandemic we don't want a so called leader who seems to tolerate illicit parties in number downing street (https://www.itv.com/news/2021-12-07/no-10-staff-joke-in-leaked-recording-about-christmas-party-they-later-denied) and trips to Barbard Castle to test ones eyesight ...Why should anyone pay attention? Apart from those who are decent citizens?

Michael Ixer ● 1518d

"being  awkward, or lazy"Michael, the awkward proportion probably covers a wide range of different types. What we don't want is for the public health message to be lost and drowned out by their concerns which are unrelated to exemptions.A positive persuasive message is best IMO rather than a confrontational one. Even more so when a bottle of water or a packet of crisps means you can remove your mask.Before anyone jumps in saying ban drink and food on public transport: It is recommended to carry water on the underground. People fainting is not uncommon which obviously can be traumatic for the individual but also for the whole train/tube that can get stuck in tunnels or between stations etc.The best way to persuade people is by positive example IMO.With no furlough or other support, we must also balance risks. Most of the people in the hospitality sector will not have their mortgage paid off (more likely are renting) and not have the luxury of pension income.Vaccines and high tech aside the best defence against covid IMO is the old fashioned: exercise and eat healthy along with investment in the NHS of course. Sadly myself and the UK fall short when compared with other nation. But if those of us can make some progress it will free up capacity for others. Of course it is not guaranteed on an individual basis but overall will help. With that in mind - the government have a number of positive initiatives which perhaps need a bit more exposure than the mask debate.

Ed Robinson ● 1519d

Ed.Agreed, face coverings are just one of a number of mitigants to reduce the risk of virus transmission - and are a cheap and easy way to assist. OK, a few people have reasonable exemptions but I suspect most who object  to wearing masks are just being  awkward, or lazy? Agreed, the test and tracing process in the UK has been a disaster; comparable to Talk  Talk's infosec protection a few years ago? But the UK's genomic sequencing has been world leading, and our development and engagement with vaccine availability has also been excellent; pity some are hesitant or have agendas to dissuade people from protecting us all?

Michael Ixer ● 1519d

Simon, face covings are only part of the measures to tackle the spread. Ventilation which I complain about doesn't get much of a look in. Then there is vaccination which the UK has quite well at, but tracing and isolating etc are pretty poor.The face coving restrictions must be seen in proportion to other measures. There is also no requirement to wear a face covering in a pub, cafe etc. The UK has never had a zero approach since this pandemic started so to over emphasis face coverings is really missing the UK only objective - which is to keep ICU beds available.If you want serious Covid measures then New Zealand & Singapore are the models which we can relate to. They are slowing exiting their zero covid policy as vaccination rates rise. Even without their zero Covid policy they have far stricter processes in place.

Ed Robinson ● 1519d

90% is a snap-shot, yes? perhaps hi...perhaps lo?So that makes the other 10%ish mask "exceptions" free to spread virus ad lib?F..king hell we're F..cked!Cheers!

Simon Knight ● 1519d

I agree Andy. I estimated high 90's in my unofficial survey.The self exception was the right call by the government IMO. And I do not say that very often. The alternative would have been GP's flooded with exemption requests definitely not what we want at this time of the year.

Ed Robinson ● 1519d

Non scientific survey on tube yesterday and buses today I'd say we are back up to 90% compliance generally.Which is higher than the jab take up in London.

Andy Pike ● 1519d

"Frankly I find it worrying that so many people find it an imposition to slip on a mask for a quick shop"God help Mick and his ilk if they ever consider riding a motorbike and 'have to do what Boris tells them' and wear a helmet. Or maybe they'll be big and clever and refuse on grounds of their 'freedom' being taken away.

Freddie Francis ● 1519d

Sadly not, the security there didn't even intervene. I am now really nervous about going into a shop, and will walk whenever possible so as to avoid public transport.

Karen Taylor ● 1519d

That's awful, Karen, completely unacceptable: my sympathies. Was any action taken against this man? It certainly should have been.

Richard Carter ● 1519d

For me a first ever, actually got up a link provided by a forum member...feel honoured Ed :)"Current exemptions include but are not limited to...blah blah blah...andwhere putting on, wearing or removing a face covering will cause you severe distress"Eh? So basically anybody could claim exemption...and the 0.0001% who would be (genuinely) severely distressed by putting on a mask for a 25min supermarket shop probably would find the trip there too stressful in the first place. Ocado springs to mind!Frankly I find it worrying that so many people find it an imposition to slip on a mask for a quick shop.They're being asked to wear a mask for a short while not be a bloody West Ham supporter.

Simon Knight ● 1519d

I have gone into the Sainsbury on the URR near the opposite Quill Lane, with my Lanyard clearly on display, but I was still threatened by a man who stated that he wanted to "smash my head in". This level of aggression is not acceptable, I was so upset that I put my shopping down and left the shop.

Karen Taylor ● 1519d

Unless I missed it everyone has been pro face coverings in this thread. Gosh agreement on this forum:-)The disagreement seems to be how we treat those that do not wear a mask. Some contributors may even hold the view although not explicitly stated that there should be no exemptions. That view is not reflected in the law or guidance.There is a useful link here including the Enforcement Chapter:Guidance DPTAC position on face coverings and exemptions - Published 22 March 2021 although I assume still current.We need to be careful as a society that fear of the pandemic does not lead to those that are exempt being demonized. Some very shocking attacks on people that are exempt were reported last time, let's hope we do not see this repeated.https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/dptac-position-on-face-coverings/dptac-position-on-face-coverings-and-exemptions

Ed Robinson ● 1520d

Well in the blasted road shop where ever, don't go near the person. Common Sense.

Barbara Stevens ● 1520d

For goodness' sake, can't you grasp that this is about what happens IN SHOPS AND PUBLIC TRANSPORT and not on the street???

Richard Carter ● 1520d

Simon, then he should have kept his distance. Even walking to the shops in the road I live, I will stand still and let somebody pass. Even if they are coming towards me, how much common sense does one need. Even if I don't get a thank you who cares. As far as I am concerned I have done the right thing.  If you continue to go up to people, you only get what you deserve.

Barbara Stevens ● 1520d

Get jabbed.Wear mask.Slow transmission.Unless somebody is a complete tosser (Mr Brown a Co. spring to mind) how can this now be disputed?Conrol freak Barbara? Yes perhaps trying to conrol how he dies!

Simon Knight ● 1520d

I think some help needed from some professional, because of the feeling he needs to control everybody. Even sitting in your own vehicle having photo's taken of you. Bit of a control freak comes to mind.

Barbara Stevens ● 1520d

Aside from all the vitriol posted and I hold my hands up here! What precisely did Richard say/do wrong? Simply ask a question relevant to the times? Woman refused to answer...should be end of! Jeez...can't even ask a question these days without being labeled biased!As somebody said on this thread "try living in China."

Simon Knight ● 1520d

Incidentally, I have, politely and on several occasions, asked men (I didn't record their height) to wear masks on public transport with no adverse effect, so you and Andy will be disappointed.

Richard Carter ● 1520d

Rather churlish, Elizabeth, considering that I wrote to congratulate you on a letter in the FT a few months ago.Whatever, I found this rather interesting: a study carried out earlier this year (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886920305377) found that “antisocial traits, especially lower levels of empathy and higher levels of Callousness, Deceitfulness, and Risk-taking, are directly associated with lower compliance with containment measures [i.e., mask-wearing in the pandemic]. These traits explain, at least partially, the reason why people continue not adhering to the containment measures even with increasing numbers of cases and deaths.”

Richard Carter ● 1520d

A few years ago, I forget when, Mr Carter, whom I do not know, upbraided me on this Forum about a letter from me published in the Financial Times. I can't remember if anyone followed up on the thread. I did not respond, but I wondered why he bothered since, no disrespect to the Forum, its readership is probably less than that of the FT.I was reminded of this when I read his post about questioning a woman about her failure to wear a mask. It betrays a certain arrogance. As Andy remarks, would he have chastised a 6ft tall young bloke? And from his account, the woman replied she was exempt. Apparently she didn't tell him to Go Away!Although I find it irksome I wear a mask in shops, concert halls and on public transport. But I now feel tempted to cruise the Werter Rd Sainsbury's where I do much of my shopping without a mask in the hope that Mr Carter will pounce and tell me how to behave. As I am only 5ft he can do so secure in the knowledge that I'll be unlikely to flatten him, physically, at least.

Elizabeth Balsom ● 1520d

Yes Andy, just me being stupid, probably what I'm best at. Always have to twist something.

Barbara Stevens ● 1520d

Sean, yes I agree also, I jumped out of the other half's van in the summer sometime and went into Putney Sainsbury's, a lady I know said you haven't got your mask on, I actually put my had to my face to feel, so quickly got it out of my handbag. But I wouldn't like it if somebody started questioning me. I would have told them to get Security if they didn't like it, I'm not answering their questions.

Barbara Stevens ● 1520d

I think that's called a lockdown.Why should we stay in for them  we have to minimise the risk to us as best as possible whilst retaining our ability to circulate.I think we are close to vaccine passports and not sure I agree with them but could understand why they might come.

Andy Pike ● 1520d

Yes Andy, I agree, but also, I thought people who had the virus should not have been out spreading it, that's why so many elderly people had no visitor's. So how many are walking about with a mild version of the virus and couldn't care less if they spread it. So if this is so, perhaps the people without the virus should stay indoors, and let the zombie twat's walk free.

Barbara Stevens ● 1520d

You also have to remember that 11% of the population havnt had a jab rising to over 30% in London. In those circumstances the virus will continue to spread amongst the unvaccinated and also on some cases the vaccinated.

Andy Pike ● 1520d

In Germany some months ago I was asked by a woman customer in a shop to put my mask on. I had simply forgotten. I apologised and put it on immediately. 
Would anyone have any complaint about that? Certainly not me; I appreciated the reminder.If someone politely 'reminds' you to put a mask on, but you are exempt, you can equally politely explain your exemption. That's how a polite society works (or ought to)

Sean Hodges ● 1520d

Wearing a mask doesn't stop you getting coughs colds and covid.it provides a barrier that offers some protection but not total protection. Its larger benefits are to others around you catching anything from you  but it does offer some limited  barrier protection to you too.I suggest you start reading the details and not jusf the headlines and you nay understand it all better.

Andy Pike ● 1520d

Andy Pike, only browned off gang. I've had all my jabs and wear a mask. But even wearing my mask, in the summer I had a most disgusting cough that went on for about a month. So I caught that from somewhere.

Barbara Stevens ● 1520d

I've seen shops with "No Mask No Entry" signs provided by their local shopkeepers' association.  That should make shoppers stop and think before opening the door.

Philippa Bond ● 1521d

I'm asthmatic and I wear a mask in closed and busy spaces.  I know others who do this for the short while that it is necessary even though it is difficult for them.  Isnt the wording actually still "face covering" which was put in place because the shortage of medical masks meant they needed to be reserved for medical personnel in hospitals etc.  It is cold enough to wear a scarf and you see people wrapping theirs over nose and mouth which is good too and better than not wearing anything.  It is sad that we don't feel brave enough to question anyone who may well have a mask in their pocket and just need a nudge.

Philippa Bond ● 1521d

RichardI wonder if you would have been so forthright with a 20+ year old male in your request for information ? If you are I predict a hospital visit for you some time soon. These guys are likely to take umbrage. I'd stick to taking photographs of idling cars outside school gates for a hobby

Andy Pike ● 1521d

Oh dear Barbara your post re vaccine immunity ....there is no such thing and it has never been claimed that the vaccine makes you immune.What has consistently been said is ...the vaccines reduces your likelihood of getting serious illness that requires hospitalization. You are beginning to sound like an anti vaxxer..one of Browns gang.

Andy Pike ● 1521d

Michael, Why do you and Richard not argue for the case of no exemptions? Which seems to be what you two are driving at but will not say.99 percent of the people on the two buses I took yesterday wore a mask and the windows were open which is a positive. Opening both doors at each stop should have been a plus. A simple change of operating procedures to add additional ventilation seems entirely rational but no one calls for TFL or the Mayor to be fined if windows are closed. Why not?Coming back to the subject. If you get on a busy tube or bus and no one is wearing a mask then the odds are that some are not exempt. But which people are is a different matter. A general address to the bus would seem appropriate highlighting that those that can should wear a mask, but not assuming that everyone can.Unfortunately those of us without the special abilities to determine individual's medical and mental history by a glance or second hand report will error on the side of caution.Perhaps you two should consider a career in diagnostics. No need for scanners or trained professionals. Unless of course you believe everyone should, no exemptions?

Ed Robinson ● 1521d

These people are taking the p*** out of the rest of us and it is not helped by your endless excusing of them. They need to know that most of us (not you, but I think you are in a minority here), dislike them, resent what they sre doing, think they are selfish scumbags and ought to just wear a bloody mask like the rest of us do. Those few of them that have a genuine exemption can get one of the lanyards.Caught in their act, of course they will claim they have some exemption that they don't want to talk about. Hand in the till - goodness me how did it get there - I must have slipped.It is quite obvious here that the lady's "personal matter" was that there was nothing wrong with her other than that she could not be arsed to wear a mask.Hats off to Richard, I wish I had his confidence to do the same.

Michael Winstanley ● 1521d

"when I politely asked one maskless woman to wear hers, she claimed that she was exempt. When I asked her on what grounds her exemption was based, she smugly declared that it was "a personal matter"Surely Richard you should have left it after she told you she exempt.Perhaps she was exempt and confident - who knows? If she was exempt should she have been shameful?Would you have dropped it if she told you (a stranger) why she was exempt in front of everyone? Or would you have questioned her some more?Please tell what answers would satisfy your questioning?

Ed Robinson ● 1521d

Michael you are suggesting that NHS treatment is not based on outcomes but on previous life choices. That is completely different."by these selfish, ignorant *****." We under the present system can't tell who is exempt and who is not. The police can follow up and get the detail. It is inappropriate for an individual to have to disclose that detail to any member of the public that thinks they have a right to know.

Ed Robinson ● 1521d

I don't embarrass myself Richard, I leave that to you. You haven't been on here for a long time, did you get banned again.

Barbara Stevens ● 1521d

I was NOT harassing anyone, try to read the posts before making your false statements.To make it easier for you, this is what I said (quote from the original post): "I politely asked one maskless woman to wear her." Got it now, or are you going to continue to embarrass yourself like this, Barbara?

Richard Carter ● 1521d

Well done Richard then for taking this task on and not seeking any reward. Also for not requiring years of training. From Richard's account, he was not harassing anyone, he was performing a public service.

Michael Winstanley ● 1521d

Who gets seen there is a queue of 22 Ambulances in Torbay outside a Hospital. Also in Paddington waiting hours. What was the point of having the vaccine, I thought it was to make us immune from the virus. So are we protecting ourselves by wearing the mask or other people, why are there more people getting the virus, when so many have had the vaccine. Was the vaccine a waste of time.

Barbara Stevens ● 1521d

But Gary has worked in Putney Sainsburys for years he gets paid to tell people, you can't come in here. Richard was harassing a lady.

Barbara Stevens ● 1521d

"Michael your reply seems to indicate that you want everyone to wear a mask even if they are exempt from doing so"Then you have again misread what I said."Please post some evidence on the NHS point you make that is not based on outcomes"Well of course it is based on outcomes. The NHS doesn't have a never ending supply of money. Hence treatment in the real world is rationed; for example, people who  lose weight get the surgery, people who won't don't. People who carry on drinking won't get a liver transplant. Similarly, people who won't get the Covid vaccine should be denied treatment for Covid and any complications thereof, if they catch it, since, the outcomes from this infection are far worse for non-vaccinees. Can't be arsed to find evidence of that for you - it's easy enough to get.

Michael Winstanley ● 1521d

Michael your reply seems to indicate that you want everyone to wear a mask even if they are exempt from doing so.This looks like more examples of demonising peoply that may not be able to wear one to me.Please post some evidence on the NHS point you make that is not based on outcomes.

Ed Robinson ● 1521d

Well exactly Barbara. "takes it upon himself". Obviously the CEO of Sainsburys has not "taken it upon himself" but somewhere in the chain of command between them and Gary in Putney, maybe it was Gary himself, someone has "taken it upon himeself". So has Richard. And more of us need to stand together. Thank God I live in a country where people like Richard are prepared to do this. Pity though that there are not more like him and Gary.

Michael Winstanley ● 1521d

Why Richard takes it upon himself to tell people what they should do. Gary in Putney large Sainsbury's was standing by the door telling them they can't come in without a mask, also had some paper masks in a box.  Sainsbury's Richmond the same had some in a box to offer to customers.So why not tell the Manager in the shop to do the same. If you want to tell customers what to do get a job there or stay away from the customer.

Barbara Stevens ● 1521d

Richard l am intrigued why didn’t you just go to a member of staff or ask for the manager and make your complaint known.  That would have had more impact if they had challenged the person.  I’m assuming you have also written to Sainsbury head office with a complaint.  Very brave challenging a female but good luck in future with a youth.With regard to Biggins we all make our own individual choices.  He chooses to perform or he can choose not to. 

Robert Wheeler ● 1521d

Was listening to Christoper Biggin who is hoping to do panto when theatres get going. He has had all the necessary procedures.  He is most concerned about his audience, especially the unvaxed who will all be breathing towards him

Barbara Shillabeer ● 1521d

Precisely, Michael. And Robert Wheeler (posting further down this thread) would do well to take in your point about rights.

Richard Carter ● 1521d

You are an idealist it seems. I'm mpre practically minded and just want to avoid myself and others being infected by these selfish, ignorant *****. I don't really care which imaginary fairy they worship or what weird personal codes of conduct they think they should follow.The NHS has already restricted its services to people that help themselves and the rest of us. It hasn't appeared to have any problem doing so. For example if you are overweight and do not lose some weight, you will not get certain surgery options.All this stuff about "rights" is all very well when people are only injuring themselves, but this is an infectious disease. Any "religious" or "ethical" person ought to be concerned about harming others rather than their own foibles. The fact is, very few people actually do havegenuine religious or ethical objections. Most of the anti-vaxxers are away with the fairies like Mr Brown.Suppose I work preparing food and I want to have the freedom not to wash my hands after visiting the toilet. Suppose I work in a care home and want to have the freedom to be no-vax and non-mask. You wouldn't entertain either of those scenarios. So just because the risk is less, why in principle should you defend these pr***s wondering around Sainsburys spreading their bugs when it has been made quite clear by scientific advisors, HMG and Sainsburys themselves that masks should be worn. No-one's personal "freedom" should give them the right to put others at risk.

Michael Winstanley ● 1521d

I agree with Ed also.This is all based on Richard’s assumption of the person in a local supermarket.  Yes l wear a mask, triple jabbed but would not dream of imposing my views in such a personal way in a public space.Everyone has rights and yours are no higher than anyone else.  Thank God we live in a free country and not a dictatorship.

Robert Wheeler ● 1521d

Michael, I'm not particularly religious or a vegan or particularly ethical. And my medical situation I deemed the vaccine benefit out weighted any risks. My choice.But I wouldn't assume the above of everyone. It's their choice, their circumstances their judgement and I would uphold that right.I would also uphold the right of universal healthcare in this country irrespective of what life choices that person has made.These in my mind are fundamental principles. The right to defend someone else's beliefs however absurd they are. And the right to treatment irrespective of contribution from the premature baby that has just been born to the person that has never worked or contributed I never thought such beliefs would need defending but UK society is even more fragile than I thought.

Ed Robinson ● 1521d

It's not "can't" it's "won't". They should just get the bloody vaccine and if they won't they should be denied NHS treatment. Smokers and drinkers are heavily taxed for their habits and thus fund the NHS. Anti-vaxxers are at best just free-loading on the rest of us and at worst putting other people in danger.

Michael Winstanley ● 1521d

Rubbish. In 2/3 of my examples, there could have been a bona fide reason for the activity. One would be quite justified to enquire of the person what they were doing and why. I chose the 3rd example (racist abuse on bus) as this is one where the police would almost never become involved and it is down to fellow bus passengers to support the driver and ask people like this to stop.The fact is that 9/10 non-mask-wearers have no valid exemption and 9/10 people who claim they have such an exemption but wearing no lanyard are lying through their teeth.

Michael Winstanley ● 1521d

"Wear a mask if you can. Do not harass those that may not be able to. It is simple."That's where you are wrong: it isn't simple, because you miss out those who who are perfectly capable of wearing masks but who are too self-important, or plain heedless of others, to do so.

Richard Carter ● 1521d

Simon once you break the NHS principles for what ever reason there is no going back. It is gone.What this really shows is how fragile some of the principles of UK society are including the NHS.Sensible guidance designed not to over run the doctors with demands for official written confirmation of exemption are ignored and taken to extremes by self appointed judges. The same law that mandates masks in shops - exempts bars, cafes and pubs etc. Are the people who frequent those racist sord wilding car thief burgers too?The problem is these self appointed judges over step the law and guidance.Wear a mask if you can. Do not harass those that may not be able to. It is simple.

Ed Robinson ● 1521d

Agreed!!!!!

Carole Tanner ● 1521d

Richard: People like Ed are not subject to argument but we are subject to the folly of those who find masks an inconvenienc.

Alexander MacLeod ● 1521d

Smokers etc are addicts. Nobody asks to be an addict.Vacinnes help to stop spread.I think that any person that "can" owes it to society to do so...by choice!And David yes my comments are hate filled (albeit not inciting) to people who don't give a stuff about me or people who hold I hold dear.Happy to meet you face to face to discuss further!

Simon Knight ● 1521d

Simon,I've been doubled vaccinated myself and will get by booster next week. But if someone can't have the vaccine for whatever reason (ethical, religious, whatever) I do not want them to go without treatment. The whole point of the NHS is that it is a universal service free at the point of delivery. What you are suggesting is that  we abolish the NHS because of Covid.Smokers, drinkers, people that over eat do we refuse them treatment too?

Ed Robinson ● 1521d

The laws on masks was updated late Nov. I quote from the latest government advice."Exemption cardsIf you have an age, health or disability reason for not wearing a face covering:    you do not routinely need to show any written evidence of this    you do not need to show an exemption cardThis means that you do not need to seek advice or request a letter from a medical professional about your reason for not wearing a face covering.However, some people may feel more comfortable showing something that says they do not have to wear a face covering. This could be in the form of an exemption card, badge or even a home-made sign.Carrying an exemption card or badge is a personal choice and is not required by law."I do also think that some of the comments on this thread are "hate-filled" and are potentially "hate-inciting"

David Nugent ● 1521d

I seriously want the non maskers/deniers to catch covid and then have the cheek to demand NHS to sort it out.I'd love to hope that at that point at that point NHS asks:Have you been vacinacted?No? Eff Off or pay up front for your treatment.

Simon Knight ● 1521d

Thank you, Sue; it really is simple - yet there was one of those ultraliberal nutters on Any Questions today, complaining that not just ministers but public servants were telling people how they should live their lives.

Richard Carter ● 1521d

Michael W another false analogy and making the assumption of guilty until proven innocent.Now someone with a valid exemption are racist burglar sord wielding car thieves.

Ed Robinson ● 1521d

I totally agree.  Perhaps a scarf over your face?But I do know some people have problems with the masks.  Alternatives would not go amiss!

Ivonne Holliday ● 1521d

Precisely Matt. When my Brother comes to see me he even keeps his 😷 on when inside my house!

Sue Hammond ● 1521d

Even worse, if you dont wear a mask you may unwittingly perpetuate the spread of the virus and end up killing people.I wouldn't want that, therefore if i'm inside a shop i wear a mask.

Matt Palmer ● 1521d

Just wear a bloody mask!  It won't kill you but not wearing one just might.  Jeez what a ridiculous drama over such a simple thing.🙄

Sue Hammond ● 1521d

I agree that everyone should wear a mask in shops and public transport.  I wear mine on the street as well, but that is me. But I admit that in more than one occasion I had left it at home!There are people that are exempt and it helps enormously if they have proof to show it.  I can happen that they have forgotten the proof when going out - bad luck, not helpful but it happens.Somebody I know is asthmatic but, to make matters worse, wearing a mask makes him/her feel claustrophobic.  By they way, he/she does not travel on the tube at all.I cannot see anything wrong with asking somebody to wear a mask, please.  As in Richard's case, a generic response to the question why would be breathing difficulties, mental heath issues (cannot think of anything else) without disclosing the details.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1521d

But you do not Michael W. and even if you did - if your reason for your exemption was not visually obvious you might still be challenged by curious individuals about the nature of your  exemption.It is a slippery slope which oddly enough so called liberals seem happy to travel down.If you can wear one please do so - it makes sense and is the law. But let's not demand those that can't, display why not to every Tom, Dick and Harry!

Ed Robinson ● 1521d

"It is up to the police". So if you saw one trying the door handles of a car, you'd just ignore them - "up to the police". If you saw someone climbing over your neighbour's fence, you'd ignore that - "up to the police". If you were on a bus and a fellow passenger were racially abusing the driver - "up to the police".I can see that for reasons of personal safety, one might choose to avoid a confrontation in these instances, but otherwise, as members of society, we all have a natural responsibility to see that the law is upheld and without such intervention either we would need a police force 5 times bigger or there would be anarchy.You also touch on personal choice. It appears to be Richard's personal choice to confront strangers about their masklessness. It is a free country - if he chooses to do that, who are you to appoint yourself as his judge? Likewise the stranger is free to ignore Richard and free not to answer his questions.

Michael Winstanley ● 1521d

I'm not dictating I'm suggesting. If I had a valid exemption I would really like to advertise that fact rather than have passers by simply conclude that I was a selfish, sociopathic and thoughtless git.

Michael Winstanley ● 1521d

Richard leaving aside that you were in fact on private property - it is up to the Police and relevant authorities to impose the restrictions not you.I will ignore your second paragraph as the example has no relation to what I said and actually alludes to those with genuine exemptions being compared with armed violence on our streets.Here is the guidance and I think the relevant Act of Parliament. If people are going to be self appointed interrogators and judges they should at least read up on the law.I can not see anywhere that indicates that those with exemptions need to give their details to curious strangers.https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-ownhttps://brc.org.uk/media/678776/face-coverings-regs-nov-2021.pdf

Ed Robinson ● 1521d

As usual, you have missed the point spectacularly. This did not happen "on the street" but in a shop where, just to remind you, face coverings are mandatory - which means you break the law in not wearing one, quite apart from the public health aspect.

Richard Carter ● 1521d

If you asked me why I hadn't got a mask on walking down road, you would wish you hadn't. For a start I would say get away from me then. I only wear mine for the short time in the shop as makes me really hot. So do hope your not throwing stones in a glasshouse when you live in one yourself Richard. How many meetings you been to in crowds.

Barbara Stevens ● 1521d

Knock it off, Ed, your argument, such as it is, is absurd. According to you, it's not appropriate to request someone who is posing, in a public space, a potential health risk to others, to desist from such behaviour?The true foolishness of your argument is exposed by a simple example: you see a man in the street armed with a sword that he is carelessly waving around, to others' obvious risk - and you'd stand around mouthing nonsense about his personal preferences? I don't think so.

Richard Carter ● 1521d

So, surely, it's sensible to wear an exemption badge, lanyard, etc so people understand why you're not wearing a mask? You could argue the correct approach is to report it to the police but the chances of finding an officer is fairly remote. I'm not sure if someone feels their health is being threatened bpbpy someone not wearing a mask it is unreasonable, is it?

Michael Ixer ● 1521d

Simon,clearly there needs to be proper enforcement - assuming the law is strong enough for convictions - I have not checked.I'm all for enforcing the law. That doesn't mean fining people be it for jumping traffic lights or not wearing masks. It means police intervening and taking appropriate action which of course may be fines etc.

Ed Robinson ● 1521d

"It doesn't seem unreasonable to challenge someone for not wearing a mask"Bloody hell of course it does!Imagine if you could not wear a mask being challenged by just curious members of the public every time you step out. Imagine if that exemption was for some mental health issue - how would that person feel?Wear a mask if you are not exempt but do not harass others that do not - who knows what their exemption is! Is that such a difficult concept?The Train announcement on the subject was very much along these lines I'm glad to hear.

Ed Robinson ● 1521d

I'm a mask wearer and get pee'd off by the number of people who don't...sorry but the 20 plus % in supermarkets and public transport can't all be "exempt". What I'd like to know is what medical condition makes somebody exempt. The only one that springs to mind is asthma.Frankly non mask wearers are selfish see-you-next-tuesdays...but how many fights do I want in one day?

Simon Knight ● 1521d

Alexander the law states (I assume) that you should wear a mask unless exempt I believe - although I would have to check the actual act of parliament. I haven't followed it that closely. I will check tonight.It does not say those with exemption need to show it to members of curious members of the public - nor should it.

Ed Robinson ● 1521d

I could see that might keep the lawyers busy for a while: the right to privacy versus public health enforcement! It doesn't seem unreasonable to challenge someone for not wearing a mask but I'm not sure they have any obligation to disclose medical details of their exemption. Of course the person might be required to disclose that information to a police officer but then I believe the police would be required to treat that information as confidential whereas a member of the public wouldn't be?

Michael Ixer ● 1521d

Ed: There is no "right" to murder or to harm another person. Why should there be a "right" to go mask-less and pass a potentially lethal contagion to another person - especially when the law says otherwise?

Alexander MacLeod ● 1521d

Richard: "but simply for her to say what the basis for her exemption was"You did! It is there in your own words.Wear a mask if you can but do not witch hunt those that can not. Who knows what their exemption is? That is not my business or your's Richard.

Ed Robinson ● 1521d

Like leapers Michael W?It is not up to other members of the public to dictate what those who can not wear a mask should wear.Leave that to the police and those in authority or the right to enquire.

Ed Robinson ● 1521d

Ed, it is a public health issue. I did not ask for the woman's "medical history" but simply for her to say what the basis for her exemption was. And it is now mandatory to wear a face covering in shops (and on public transport), so there is no "right to privacy" over braking the law.

Richard Carter ● 1521d

Exempt people should wear an exemption lanyard to avoid this kind of confrontation.

Michael Winstanley ● 1521d

Richard I wear a mask myself but I think you go beyond what is acceptable when you ask strangers in public places to declare their medical history to you so you can satisfy your perceptions.Wear a mask if you can but please let's not turn into self appointed interrogators and judges.The right to privacy is an important one!On a trip to Horncastle Lincolnshire via public transport (tube, train, bus). 95% I would say wore a mask. Some of that 5% were eating and drinking. The local bus did not have it's windows open nor did 50% of the TFL buses that passed me on my walk to Putney Station.

Ed Robinson ● 1521d

Sorry, didn't notice Nicholas Evans' thread on spot fines on TfL.

Richard Carter ● 1521d