Forum Topic

Another Eco-Warrior Hypocrite

M25 eco protest ringleader went on TWO epic globetrotting road trips.* Cameron Ford has been named as one of the most persistent protesters whose actions have repeatedly brought key roads to a standstill* The 31 year old carpenter spent four months touring Canada taking 8,500 mile return flights and travelling hundreds of miles to see the country* The environmentalist then bought an environmentally-unfriendly old diesel van  and used it to tour hundreds of miles around continental Europe with a girlfriend * After returning from his second extended holiday he saw no contradiction in joining protests stopping other people from travelling  https://mol.im/a/10068271

Sue Hammond ● 1579d77 Comments

@ Philippa.  Why do l need to classify myself surely - that’s a form of passive aggressive racism?

Robert Wheeler ● 1573d

A split opposition in the UK isn't helpful but climate change is a global problem and a major issue is the parties with financial muscle (for example, Trump supporting industries, etc - the US opposition is strong and powerful!) working against any changes. 

Michael Ixer ● 1574d

Michael the real issue is there is no effective opposition where these things can be channeled.A progressive energy tax makes sense but that has about as much chance as being adopted by the opposition as free broadband.back to IB second demand, I wonder how much it will cost to fully retrofit a multi bedroom holiday home occasionally used by one old lady and some home help - also known as the Sandringham Estate.https://www.express.co.uk/travel/articles/1397003/prince-charles-camilla-duchess-cornwall-uk-travel-packing-luggage-furniture

Ed Robinson ● 1574d

Yes, Ed. I said his comments were "interesting". I'm sure with his cutting down on meat and dairy, and running his old Aston on undrinkable English wine he believes he's doing his bit :-/What is interesting is that the human race is probably the only species that can recognise it's making the planet uninhabitable for itself, has the knowledge to correct that but possibly won't?I admire Matt's tenacity in attempting to change people's attitudes. Untidy posters, etc are the least of our problems, aren't they?

Michael Ixer ● 1574d

Yes Ed  but chaos is the name of their game I think we make the mistake that IB wish to be constructive.

Andy Pike ● 1574d

@Robert Wheeler  So you only want people to protest and draw attention to a situation in a way that causes you no disruption to your routine at all?  So you wouldn't notice? What would be the point of that?  Just look at the way a lot of people don't notice changes in road signs and traffic speed regulations - or do they - but somehow don't think that they will because they don't want to? Isn't that just what XR were doing - while IB were taking a harder line?We're thirty years on from the initial warnings, there have been umpteen meetings attended by world Govts and it is a Climate Emergency not a marketing campaign for the newest scented washing powder or flavoured crisps.

Philippa Bond ● 1574d

@Robert Wheeler  So you only want people to protest and draw attention to a situation in a way that causes you any disruption to your routine at all?  So you wouldn't notice? What would be the point of that?  Just look at the way a lot of people don't notice changes in road signs and traffic speed regulations - or do they - but somehow don't think that they will because they don't want to?

Philippa Bond ● 1574d

Putting aside IB demand to distribute even more wealth to many that are already  wealthy. If the government agreed to the their demand it would kill off any planned upgrading of buildings over night.Why would anyone go ahead with upgrading their property at personal cost when there will be free government money coming down the line.Projects would be delayed, people would be put out of work. The whole sector would probably crash. Then when the grants eventually come through more chaos!

Ed Robinson ● 1574d

Yes, Barbara, they have.Please note that XR, at least on Roehampton Lane in the intersection with Danebury Avenue, stood with their banners in front of traffic when the lights were red.  When the pedestrian lights turned red, they moved out of the way.  They did not block the road at all.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1574d

And how exactly do you class yourself?

Philippa Bond ● 1574d

XR support IB - please see XR press release.

Ed Robinson ● 1574d

Michael the planet would be completely in ruins if we followed Prince Charles example of traveling light :)

Ed Robinson ● 1574d

So Matt is the nice guy throwing people off the scent till the next time.

Barbara Stevens ● 1574d

Jane, Green Man, Danebury Ave, front page of Forum,also have been at Putney Station. Also Charlewood Rd, blocking Roads. Putting stickers all over Quill Bridge. How do you know Matt is not attending these protests, do you believe ever thing your told.

Barbara Stevens ● 1574d

Thankyou both.In answer to Barbara's question, I know that everyone on this forum wants a better world. I also know there are lots of non-disruptive groups out there who also want a better world.The problem is that after 30 year of marches, petitions and placard waving we are now in a situation where the UN says it's 'code red for humanity'. Clearly the tactics used have failed and therefore something new needs to be tried. IB have decided to go one way - i don't personally agree with it but some may. I would urge everyone to spend 5 mins watching this video, and then tell me if you think that 30 years of marches got us anywhere.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeY9miTqzEA

Matt Palmer ● 1574d

I totally agree Jane, Matt is bearing the brunt of protestations on the forum when he does not support IB tactics.I wonder if it is easier to do this than protest directly to Insulate Britain.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1574d

I really wonder how many more times Matt is going to have to repeat that he does not support the IB tactics!  I can’t think of a more peaceful or harmless form of protest ‘for a better world’ than sitting in an office foyer dressed as a strawberry for which he has received considerable abuse.

Jane Carter ● 1575d

Matt why do you assume that the vile selfish protest groups are the only ones who want a better world?  Most, not all, of the country believe in democracy and protest without hurting people and causing chaos

Barbara Shillabeer ● 1575d

Andy:  I don't think it's about him personally being that bothered about his own situation.  It is about the principle.  Isn't it about those who live in social housing whose homes need insulating - and a lot more maintenance and management to be safe.  Did you see that ITV documentary on the state of the tower blocks in Croydon?It's a bit like me making sure I waste no food - only to read that the Govt has allowed/created a situation where pigs are being killed and their meat destroyed rather than being used to feed the hungry - when we have so many using foodbanks and increasing poverty just in the UK alone.  Food Waste = Climate Change.

Philippa Bond ● 1575d

Ed - the 1928 Act was more about equality for all classes, it applied to men as well as women. Of course, it only went part way: parliament still has some hereditary lords and our head of state is also hereditary. Although it was interesting that Prince Charles said he understood why environmentalists are frustrated and taking action even if he thinks their actions are counterproductive.

Michael Ixer ● 1575d

All these older people sitting in roads etc, who is enrolling them to actually do this. It all seems a bit more like Ron Hubbard Scientology, are they trying to get money out of them in the end. Are they being brain washed at these meetings.

Barbara Stevens ● 1575d

Seems pretty clear XR support IB demands.Forget about the universal credit uplift cut that is going to hit those that can least afford it the most. XR & IB believe landlords and private property owners need it more!The question is why are XR & IB supporter's waiting for the government?It would surely be much more efficient for XR and IB renter's to simply pay for the upgrades themselves? There is nothing stopping them. Unless of course they do not actually believe in IB' demands!

Ed Robinson ● 1575d

Matt equality came many years later with the Representation of the People (Equal Franchise) Act 1928.

Ed Robinson ● 1575d

Ed I agree something along these lines. Could also be used to fund the cladding problem. A charge on the property to be redeemed when sold on.

Andy Pike ● 1575d

Really? tell that to the suffragettes.

Matt Palmer ● 1575d

So if the general public don’t support XR how are you going to change things?  It all ends up in the ballot box we live in a democracy.

Robert Wheeler ● 1575d

I said I dont care if IB have lost the public support (if they ever had any)but that said, speaking from an XR point of view, no i dont really care if there's public support for our actions.

Matt Palmer ● 1575d

So you don’t care about Joe public which says it all.  If  you want legitimacy go for a vote.  You  protest too much if XR is not linked to IB.

Robert Wheeler ● 1575d

As I have repeatedly said, i'm not part of IB!Whether they have lost Joe Public is of no consequence to me and i suspect even less consequence to them!

Matt Palmer ● 1575d

Matt admit it you have lost Joe Public because you have targeted us with your antics.  Basic marketing - appeal to your customers don’t p*** them off. 

Robert Wheeler ● 1575d

Here's the official statement from XR on IBExtinction Rebellion UK’s statement on Insulate Britain  - 11.09.21Insulate Britain is not an Extinction Rebellion campaign. While there are people involved in XR UK taking part, Insulate Britain remains entirely independent of Extinction Rebellion, organising in a separate capacity. Sharing information about Insulate Britain, as with any other movements or campaigns, is at each XR local groups’ or individuals’ discretion.Extinction Rebellion UK recognises the need for actions that are highly disruptive and controversial in order to highlight the severity of the Climate and Ecological Emergency. Insulate Britain looks to play an important role in shifting the Overton Window around public awareness, and urgent government action. We wish Insulate Britain success in reaching their aims, and send love and courage to all XR rebels taking part. If you have further questions please contact RelationshipsXRUK@protonmail.com If you want to contact Insulate Britain or find out more please see their website http://www.insulatebritain.com

Matt Palmer ● 1575d

Seem to be pretty close according to this link:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3KaRVhiHm9IOn the couple of interviews I've seen they did not really mentioned insulation. Which I found odd. Looks like they want a piece of the XR cause and have just chosen insulation as a means.Tooting popular front comes to mind.

Ed Robinson ● 1575d

quite possibly, I didnt ask about the demographicI imagine you can add 'people who care about our carbon emissions' to that list though ;)

Matt Palmer ● 1575d

"Incidentally I know someone who went to this evenings recruitment drive by IB, apparently it was packed out."Unemployed crusties, middle aged hippies living the dream, middle class covert hooligans and bored oldies who crave a bit of excitement ...

Sue Hammond ● 1575d

lol maybe i'm in denial!? Frankly I feel a bit like Saddam trying to prove he doesn't have WMD, it's a lost cause! I don't really know how I can prove there is no link tbh.Why don't you all prove to me that XR and IB are the same thing?

Matt Palmer ● 1575d

Matt I have actually heard IB spokespersons (wow, how woke am I!) speaking to Nick Ferrari several times and saying they are affiliated to XR so were they lying or are you in denial lol?

Sue Hammond ● 1575d

Not as far as I know. They certainly dont share funds as Roger Hallam is persona non grata in XR!

Matt Palmer ● 1575d

Matt,Are you saying they IB do not share any resources including funds, legal resources etc with XR?

Ed Robinson ● 1575d

You keep saying XR but as i've said a number of times, the blocking of the M25 etc is Insulate Britain.Incidentally I know someone who went to this evenings recruitment drive by IB, apparently it was packed out.

Matt Palmer ● 1575d

Matt do not forget to mention the wars, test and trace app, selling off utilities....etc We do not need another added to it.XR can't claim to be non-political. Their proposal puts them on the side of property owners who are already well represented by the political parties.A progressive energy tax to fund a mixture of grants and loans is a fair way. Oddly enough it probably has more change with Boris than New New Labour or the Greens!

Ed Robinson ● 1575d

I don't think they are seeking a quick fix Andy (could be wrong though) I think they are seeking a quick commitment to a fix.Incidentally Ed, I can't think of any climate change mitigation that's free, there will always be taxpayers money involved somewhere. Saying XR can't protest on that basis is utterly ridiculous, if nothing else I pay tax so have a right to campaign on where it's spent.Equally if you like having your money spaffed up the wall on subsidies for oil companies and expensive wallpaper that's your right.

Matt Palmer ● 1575d

It could be funded by having a progressive energy tax. Probably wouldn't be popular with XR supports.A mixture of grants and loans could then be provided. In the case of property rich-cash poor owners, above a certain size property a loan would be secured against it. It makes no sense for the taxpayer to fund the upgrade of a single person living in a huge four bedroom house for example.Property & cash rich owners I'm sure would be keen to make use of loans if the cost per unit of energy increased the more they used.Landlord could be required to make sure their properties meet the required energy rating levels. Loans again could be made available.The tax and the required energy rating level would increase over time.

Ed Robinson ● 1575d

Thats true Phillipa but if he was that concerned he could buy  10 rolls of insulate for a couple of hundred quid and do it himself.

Andy Pike ● 1575d

MattIf i had a solution I'd offer it up. I'm just pointing out the difficulties in achieving the aim.If IB themselves say it will take until 2050 then that shows how unrealistic they are in seeking a quick fix.Even of they looked at the public sector many of those are now mixed development with the number of leasehold sales so the costs to leaseholders would be huge. Or again its a tax payer bill.

Andy Pike ● 1575d

Matt this is a political discussion.You can be non-political and protest that the government is not doing enough but once you dictate how it is to be paid for that is politics.Of course XR are largely made up of white  upper middle class people and low and behold the solution will benefit white upper middle class people. What a surprise!Let's tax everyone and give it to landlords and wealthy property owners! Brilliant idea.

Ed Robinson ● 1575d

I have done all that I can to insulate my home.  That's it.  Insulate Britain can go whistle as far as I'm concerned.  Or spend their time in prison.  Preferably.

Sue Hammond ● 1575d

OK Andy and Sue, what's your plan for solving this issue then? The below is from the IB report on the scale of the issue.The scale of the retrofitting building works required is vast. The Institution of Engineering and Technology (IET, 2018) report, Scaling Up Retrofit 2050, advises that nearly every home in the UK needs to be upgraded with energy efficiency measures. This means retrofitting 1.5 homes per minute to the year 2050. The government’s own Committee on Climate Change (CCC) has made clear that reductions in carbon emissions from housing have “stalled” and that “we cannot meet our climate objectives without a major improvement in UK housing” (2019: p11). Upgrading all 29 million homes in the UK to a high level of energy efficiency is an essential part of this. The CCC further states that “given the scale of the challenge this work must be viewed and supported by the Treasury as a national infrastructure priority”

Matt Palmer ● 1575d

you have a point Sue. look what happened with the external insulation/cladding at Grenfell.if the Govt (sorry us the taxpayer)  is expected to fund and procure these works the potential for claims against the Govt (sorry us the taxpayer) when it goes wrong are huge. We still expect the govt ( sorry etc etc) to bail out all the private sector overclads that have been done.when we did the cavity wall insulation at WBC there were a number of cases where it bridged 'rubbish' in the cavity thus causing dampness in properties.when insulating roofs and replacing windows you have to be careful not to introduce condensation. each property type would need surveying to establish the best TOTAL package to achieve the aims ( the pattern book). Do IB expect that the tax payer will pay for all privately owned properties too? good luck getting that one passed.it really is a project that would take 10s of years to complete, there is no quick fix and sitting in the road winding people up is not a constructive way to start discussions with the British people (the ultimate funders of this work).

Andy Pike ● 1575d

"Solid brick walled homes can be insulated.  It is difficult but it is happening and has to be done with great care because of the problems that can be caused by condensation rotting the wooden joists if it isn't done properly.  We need a pattern book and people trained to understand, do and supervise this."What the heck is a pattern book?  It isn't worth doing. The expense and the risks of collateral damage to the property are too high.

Sue Hammond ● 1575d

You don't automatically own the loft if you own the top flat.

Philippa Bond ● 1575d

But we are all paying taxes for things we either don't use at all or all of the time!From what I read Liam Norton does not own the flat he lives in and so is unlikely to own the roof and roof space.Solid brick walled homes can be insulated.  It is difficult but it is happening and has to be done with great care because of the problems that can be caused by condensation rotting the wooden joists if it isn't done properly.  We need a pattern book and people trained to understand, do and supervise this. The Energiesprong system is being used on solid brick walled buildings.There will be plenty of problems with the houses that have been split into flats - many unlawfully - with either no or adequate fire, acoustic or thermal separation.

Philippa Bond ● 1575d

That is right Andy.Our flat roof was done again recently (25 years since it was last done I think). Much improved during winter and summer.The Insulate Britain guy doesn't have a flat roof. Being the first floor (as opposed to the ground) he has access to the loft. Unless the papers are incorrect I can't see a reason why he hasn't insulated his loft.

Ed Robinson ● 1575d

That's very true Matt and would require some bravery from a govt to force an increase in fuel prices by withdrawing the subsidy.Not saying shouldn't happen but would need to be a long term strategic plan to ensure both fuel security and price.

Andy Pike ● 1576d

Hmm it's an interesting point.Could we make sure that the tax payers are also aware they are paying fossil fuel companies £10bn a year in subsidies and ask them whether they think that should continue? Perhaps some of the people living in poorly insulated homes might prefer that money be directed to them instead?

Matt Palmer ● 1576d

EdThey both require the rest of us to pay.When they ask for the govt to fund they should insert that the tax payer fully fund.The wording suggests no contribution from home owners or leaseholders ie fully fund.

Andy Pike ● 1576d

If you look at the demands the second one would effectively tax non property owners to improve privately owned properties.I'm not sure I agree with that!As a society tax has already became more regressive with the introduction of green measures be it electric cars or ULEZ.They say they are not political but that is a political statement.Tax especially those that result in regressive measures need to be discussed. There are lots of ways to finance the second demand without it falling on non property owners shoulders. Did they consider any of them?WE DEMAND 1That the UK government immediately promises to fully fund and take responsibility for the insulation of all social housing in Britain by 2025; 2That the UK government immediately promises to produce within four months a legally binding national plan to fully fund and take responsibility for the full low-energy and low-carbon whole-house retrofit , with no externalised costs, of all homes in Britain by 2030 as part of a just transition to full decarbonisation of all parts of society and the economy.

Ed Robinson ● 1576d

One of the issues when re covering a flat roof is leaseholders onjecting to the upgrade of insulation and hence its cost.it is standard practice when re covering a flat roof in WBC to upgrade insulation at the same time. I suspect other councils are the same.

Andy Pike ● 1576d

Matt,Perhaps it is untrue but it has been reported that even basic insulation has not been carried out. A long way off from the fully insulated.If you can give an example to where the local authority that owns the freehold that has not insulated the roof then that would change my opinion.Of course that would be a different argument that Insulate Britain are having that would seem to be a legal one not a Central government funding one that that they are proposing!  Philippa do not confuse HOUSE with HOME they are two different things! My quote specifically said HOUSE.If you own your flat there are different legal considerations depending upon the lease etc.In England when you own your own HOUSE - be it through a mortgage or shared ownership as far as I'm aware you can insulate your loft. Happy to be corrected.

Ed Robinson ● 1576d

Your house or your home doesn't necessarily actually belong to you as in full ownership but it is the place where you live.We don't tend to go around asking people whether they have paid their mortgage off.You can't believe everything that is in the papers anyway!  There may be some truth but it will be spun in the way they choose to suit them.

Philippa Bond ● 1576d

Ok so to be clear, the only people allowed on these protests are:People who rentPeople who have fully insulated their own housesWhat about people who used right to buy to buy their now ex-council flat but cannot insulate the roof as the building itself if still owned by the council? Should they bring a letter to that effect?I do think its very important to know exactly who is and who isnt allowed to block the m25.

Matt Palmer ● 1576d

Philippa, please read the quote "own house". It implies ownership. Obviously people that rent do not own their house!The guy is a tradesman quite capable of insulating his own loft I'm sure. Also as detailed in the link I provided there are grants and even free insulation.What next people going on anti meat protest whilst eating a lamb diner kabab??

Ed Robinson ● 1576d

"However I do not think it is unrealistic to expect that someone protesting should have their own house insulated for example before going on a protest about insulation."Why?  It is totally unrealistic to expect that!  Many people can't insulate their homes because not enough work has been done and made public and not enough people have been trained as to how to do this.  A lot of people don't own their homes and there have been plenty of landlords who have failed in their duties of management and maintenance.  Many tenants even when they have been aware of the problems and know something about what they should do have not been able to find the help and support to complain.  After all homes are hard to come by and they are afraid that they will be unjustly evicted.  The state of some of the outhouses that have been rented out is abysmal.

Philippa Bond ● 1576d

"It seems a no brainier to me.  But maybe we can keep on finding reasons to ignore the main issue."What these hooligans are ignoring is the fact that many older properties (and listed buildings) cannot be fully insulated and I know this from personal experience.  I would suggest that most home owners have already insulated their property as much as they can, not for ecological reasons but to try and save themselves money on heating costs. The ecological argument is a strong one but the pragmatic ones are stronger. I looked into having cavity wall insulation years ago but my house is unsuitable because it was built in 1890 and has solid brick walls; however my loft is fully insulated and I have double glazing.  It is important that those who preach to others to do the right thing, have actually done it themselves.  Put up or shut up.It seems a no brainier to me.

Sue Hammond ● 1576d

Slightly odd that in Ed's world you need to be means tested before you're allowed to join a protest.

Matt Palmer ● 1576d

Not just houses Michael but all properties.Many flats have done that only to realise it is the wrong king of insulation.For houses it is as you say a no brainer. But if someone is going to stop traffic and cause unpredictable disruption to individuals then they at the very least should have their lofts insulated or a good reason not to.https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/home-grants/article/home-grants/free-loft-insulation-and-free-boilers-from-energy-suppliers-a85i81F3XKdd

Ed Robinson ● 1577d

This all seems to be a terrible distraction.Houses should be insulated. It really doesn't matter how poorly those demonstrating the cause have insulated their own homes or who is paying them. The question is - are they right?It seems a no brainer to me. But maybe we can keep on finding reasons to ignore the main issue.

Michael Winstanley ● 1577d

Matt, I do not think that anyone doubts your belief and commitment to this cause or for that matter your honesty. They may disagree with your policies but that is a different issue.Perhaps we have an unrealistic expectation of others in the news due to the high standards that you set!However I do not think it is unrealistic to expect that someone protesting should have their own house insulated for example before going on a protest about insulation.On the funding side - I did try and follows some of the spreadsheet data a while ago. Some ended up being small private offshore companies with little info available other large trusts. It is one of the reasons that I like member based organisations - preferably democratic ones.On the outgoing the EU nor the UK's overseas spending could account for all their budget (not even the UK's internal budget these days). A spreadsheet is fine for a small organisations but once you get to a large size it is not really appropriate  and your still at the mercy of the people that fill it in and the people that give them the information etc etc.

Ed Robinson ● 1577d

for the love of god, i've covered this so many times in the past.The people who were paid by XR did indeed get up to £400 a week but it was paid to self employed people that had given up their time (and therefore their ability to earn money) to work for XR. The vast majority were people like barristers who worked in XR legal for a week and gave up a lot more money than £400!Frankly Ed, i'm very disappointed you raised this yet again. I even gave you the links to the spreadsheets that show ALL incoming and outgoing monies. The idea that I get paid £400 a week is just ludicrous.

Matt Palmer ● 1577d

£400 pw? I wouldn't get out of bed for that.

Michael Winstanley ● 1577d

It's well known that XR pay up to £400 pw to their protestors, it was widely reported as far back as 2019.  So a *couple could be earning £800 weekly, what a nice little earner for them!  Presumably tax and NI free too.Extinction Rebellion PAYING protestors £200,000 to cause chaos and grind London to a halt | UK | News https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1190239/extinction-rebellion-news-protesters-payment-london-climate-change-latest*married or any other combo

Sue Hammond ● 1577d

Philippa there are countries that pay protesters it may be a mistake to believe this doesn't happen in the UK. We also have the inquiry into Police set up by Teresa May. The behaviour of the government including local and some protest individuals does seem at odd when as you say we have a climate emergency.The public deserve more transparency from both sides and serious sensible action.Of course it would be ideal if there was an opposition proposal on how we move forward. I guess they are certainly not acting as if there is an emergency.In the meantime individuals as well as governments can make a difference and green also happens to be economical in many instances. However long term investment is needed at every level something the UK is not very good at when compared to leading countries. We also need to discuss how green policies impact tax, which is of course political. Something which is outside of Xr's scope and it would seem the oppositions scope too.In the meantime it appears we now have a shortage of wind. Hard to believe after the political conferences.Europe’s electricity generation from wind blown off course - https://www.ft.com/content/d53b5843-dbe0-4724-8adf-75c66127ea80

Ed Robinson ● 1577d

How can you think that with the climate emergency that we are now experiencing that that is of any consequence?

Philippa Bond ● 1577d

Harrowing listening to that Jess!

Mike Warman ● 1579d

The question is are they paid to protest?As with all these thing you need to follow the money.

Ed Robinson ● 1579d

The eco-warriors don't seem to care if people suffer as a consequence of their actions.https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1439895502296858625

Jess Davis ● 1579d

do as you would be done by,  chickens coming home to roost....double standards.. practice what you preach...anymore ?  .laughable !!!

Penelope Becker ● 1579d

Do as I say not as I do seems to be the ruleA shame Gandhi’s somewhat more enlightened be the change you want to see in the world gets perhaps less observance than it deserves especially from Hollywood celebrity “activists” who probably keep far more than their share of oilfields pumping whilst lecturing to poor people to cut down on their economy class annual holidays to the sun.Perhaps they would be more worthy of paying attention to if they walked their own talk (literally maybe)

Mike Warman ● 1579d