Forum Topic

Geronimo ~ 1st Post Mortem Result

Just heard on BBC Radio 2 news that the initial post mortem on this poor creature shows NO trace of bovine TB!  How sad that he was put down for no reason.😕 DEFRA and the Govt were determined to kill this beautiful animal, I hope his owner sues them.

Sue Hammond ● 1376d25 Comments

@Maxine"I know people who give their cats poached organic chicken and their children cheap mince..."And what about the parents who give their kids money to spend at the cheap chicken shops? Very irresponsible. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/oct/26/fried-chicken-fast-food-shop-schoolkids

Sue Hammond ● 1372d

Michael, kind of with you there. I had a fleeting thought that many who claim to be animal lovers and got hot and bothered about Geronimo are the some of the same people who eat cheap chicken and beef in plastic packaging. I know people who give their cats poached organic chicken and their children cheap mince...Humans are messed up.

Maxine Campbell ● 1372d

Hi again Ivonne.I don't see how you can "agree" with me that a TB tissue culture test takes between 10 days and 2 weeks because that is not what I said. I said "weeks". The exact time, after the samples have been obtained, transported and prepared depends upon the tissue type and the particular assay(s) being run. A typical test cycle though might take 4 weeks for the test itself.Treble-checking such a test, which is what you suggest, could take us well into next year.I see no reason to hurry to prove DEFRA was either correct or wrong. What one doesn't want to see after newspaper and PR nonsense about a "preliminary post mortem report" is further such nonsense about an "interim post mortem report". What we need is a FINAL post mortem report. NB it took 11 years for an inquest to reach a final verdict on the death of Lady Diana.Here is a web link with some more information about TB:https://tbfacts.org/culture-tb/

Michael Winstanley ● 1375d

Agreed, Ivonne, but my understanding is the law makes no exceptions whether the animals are kept as pets or for farming? However, the testing does seem to have been suspect in this case although my understanding is there's some uncertainty about the reliability of the bTB tests from both false positive and false negative outcomes, which some say is the reason why bTB is still such an issue. Probably an area that needs some open debate but DEFRA seem to be determined to continue along their own route irrespective of any evidence produced by others (and, as I noted elsewhere, even one of their own expert report writers, Lord Krebs, queried the effectiveness of measures such as badger culling).

Michael Ixer ● 1375d

I agree Michael, it is all truly heart-breaking.But, in this case, Geronimo was a pet, hardly came under the "farming lobby resistance"? My problem with his case is the way it all happened.  If the animal has bTB, it must be dealt with.  There was a court case in between and, to make matters worse, the report from DEFRA was inconclusive.....

Ivonne Holliday ● 1375d

Of course if we all went vegan there'd be no need to breed cows for dairy and cattle for beef so bTB wouldn't be a problem. People could keep lamas, camels, goats, etc and just have them vaccinated against bTB. Back to reality, some argue that that better farming practices and animal transport controls combined with vaccination would provide a better solution than slaughtering animals and paying compensation; I'm not sure as it's not my area of expertise but some who have researched it believe it's a better solution that's not viewed favourably because of the farming lobby's resistance to it.

Michael Ixer ● 1375d

Hello Michael W,I agree that culture tests take between 10 days to 2 weeks, not weeks on end.  Of course they results need to be double, if not treble checked. That would take us to the end of October, perhaps beginning of November, but certainly not the end of the year.The hurry is to prove that DEFRA was correct.  So far, its assessment is being questioned because Geronimo has been living with bTB since 2018!!!  Did he seem to you he was a sick animal when he was taken away by DEFRA?Of course it is routine procedure in the UK to slaughter a heard animal with a positive TV test.  I never said it was not.  What I questioned is that none of the reports we have received have indicated that Geronimo had any:- there is a lump in their neck, or more scientific lingo, there is/are one/some swollen lymph nodes in the neck or other places (they actually are measured with an instrument that looks like clamps);  they are normally about 5cm wide;- chronic mastitis (which obviously would not apply to Geronimo);- a cough that is worse in the mornings, in cold weather or while exercising.So, if Geronimo has been a healthy looking animal for 3 years, what is it that makes him a dangerous animal to neighbouring farms?TB is a horrific diseases - well, beyond horrific.  But I have never heard of an animal diagnosed with it to have lived happily for 3 years.  Have you?

Ivonne Holliday ● 1375d

Hi Ivonne.I do not understand what it is with which you disagree. A single tissue culture test, you accept, takes weeks. A process involving multiple such tests and various other procedures, double-checking, producing a report to publish, this must then take months. Not "several" months, maybe even just a couple, but months nonetheless. A couple of months takes us to November. That's towards the end of the year in my book. If they had said "not til next year", you could legitimately ask, why so long?The other point to bear in mind is that there is no reason for anyone to hurry - the animal is dead and there is no benefit to anyone in expediting the tests. Investigating possible TB outbreaks in any live animal population ought to take priority.In hindsight, I was actually wrong in one respect and that was to refer to it as dead goat; it's more of a dead camel.I frankly never understood what all the fuss was about - it is routine procedure in the UK to slaughter a herd animal with a positive TB test and the owner receives compensation. There is a possibility of false positive but that has to be set against the possibility that the infection spreads to other animals in the herd and to herds on other farms. Farmers well understand this and are keen to help with the process of reducing infection where possible.

Michael Winstanley ● 1375d

Good morning Michael,Yes, that is how things stand.  The post-mortem should have been conclusive:  he had bTB or he had no bTB. DEFRA said it found bTB-style of lesions that needed further investigation.  This is very strange at this stage because, after 3 years, finding bTB-style of lesions means absolutely nothing in essence. But the veterinary surgeons supporting Helen Mcdonald were very specific in detailing the type of lesions normally found in animals (or llamas in this case) with bTB and that these lesions were not found in Geronimo.Very odd indeed.  Poor Geronimo, he was treated very badly indeed.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1375d

Ivonne, just to clarify, are the post mortem vets saying there were no signs if lesions from BT but the government (or DEFRE?) statement is saying there were lesions that need to be investigated? 

Michael Ixer ● 1376d

Hello Michael W,Well, you will not be surprised to hear that I do not agree with you on this.I do not have a PhD on infectious diseases in animals, just very basic knowledge if biochemistry, biology and profound interest in infectious diseases in animals.bTB is beyond frightening generally.  From watching Countryfile, I have learnt that positive bTB test in cattle show:- there is a lump in their neck, or more scientific lingo, there is/are one/some swollen lymph nodes in the neck or other places (they actually are measured with an instrument that looks like clamps);  they are normally about 5cm wide;- chronic mastitis (which obviously would not apply to Geronimo);- a cough that is worse in the mornings, in cold weather or while exercising.Please bear in mind that Helen McDonald is a veterinary nurse and is backed by veterinary surgeons.  So, saying she is stirring up trouble perhaps the question we should ask is why.Geronimo apparently had two positive tests of bTB in 2018.  Until recently, he looked very healthy and happy!  No animal would be this happy after three years of TB.So far, I have learnt through newspaper reports that blood tests were done on Geronimo but none have mention swollen lymph nodes.But what really surprised me, in my very limited knowledge of these things, is that, according to the government, the post-mortem showed "A number of TB-like lesions were found and in line with standard practice these are now undergoing further investigation."The veterinary surgeons indicated that:"preliminary gross post-mortem findings are negative for visible lesions typical of Bovine Tuberculosis"."For clarity there are no white or cream caseous, enlarged abscesses typical for bTB in alpacas whether in the lungs, bronchial, mediastinal or retropharyngeal lymph nodes," it said.As you say, TB bacilli are very slow growing and at best it takes weeks to conduct a single tissue culture test.  I would agree with you on this but not with the government statement that said months and no results till the end of the year.The whole thing is extremely odd and it does not add up.  I wonder, just wonder, if there is an influential farmer near Helen Macdonald's farm....  I wonder.....

Ivonne Holliday ● 1376d

Well why would you have hear anything at all about this? When you did your post-doctoral research in infectious disease identification? It is a highly specialist area. In point of fact TB bacilli are very slow growing and at best it takes  weeks to conduct a single tissue culture test. Stinks imho of Geronimo's owner stirring up trouble in the press before there is any definitive evidence either way. What is true enough though, is that one dead goat is soon forgotten.

Michael Winstanley ● 1376d

Oh come on it's an alpaca!!

Andy Pike ● 1376d

the pics made me think of Boxer in animal farm :(

Matt Palmer ● 1376d

The treatment of Geronimo seemed to be unnecessarily cruel at the end. One wonders if aside the distress the animal was in if it was done out of spite to deliberately upset his owner? Still, the vet and DEFRA perhaps forgot they were dealing with a pet in full view of the press and decided to treat Geronimo as though he was a farm animal, the treatment of which we don't normally see. Perhaps time to consider giving veganism a try ... cruelty free, good for your heath and good for the planet? (Sorry, couldn't resist slipping that in :-) ) 

Michael Ixer ● 1376d

Nothing adds up. Geronimo had these so called 'positive' tests in 2017 so if he was really infected with TB how did he remain healthy for so long? Also how come the rest of the alpaca herd didn't get infected, or any other animal on Helen Macdonalds farm? More details here:http://news.sky.com/story/geronimo-the-alpaca-did-not-have-tb-owner-claims-as-chief-veterinary-officer-insists-post-mortem-showed-tb-like-lesions-12402190

Sue Hammond ● 1376d

Yes and his owner begged DEFRA to retest him. Seems bad medicine to destroy him first and then test. A lot of hypocrisy about how it was equally tragic for farmers to loose animals when they are anyway kept for slaughter while Gironomo was a pet and nowhere near cattle.

Jane Carter ● 1376d

Exactly Victoria. The poor animal looked so scared, the photos made me cry.

Sue Hammond ● 1376d

"speaking on behalf of the Govt is probably"Sue be fair opposition Kier Starmer was apparently for his killing too. Possibly because he was more popular??I've never been convinced of the government logic with dropping TB vacinations in humans while doing costly culls on the wildlife such as badgers.

Ed Robinson ● 1376d

If Geronimo had to put to sleep, pity it couldn't have been done on his home turf, with a kindly vet, instead of being tied up and dragged into a horsebox.

Victoria Richardson ● 1376d

Hello Michael W,This is on the BBC websiteGeronimo the alpaca: TB test results disputedhttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-58490510Please look at the government statements (as you quoted them in your post) but you must consider also those made by the solicitors acting for Helen Macdonald.  The certainly contradict each other.As for the bacteriological cultures, I have never heard that these take months.  Something does not add up!

Ivonne Holliday ● 1376d

I have never heard of bacterial cultures taking months to develop. Middlemiss acting and speaking on behalf of the Govt is probably hoping the Geronimo debacle will be forgotten in the passing of time. Very suspicious.  Stinks of a cover-up in my opinion.

Sue Hammond ● 1376d

However, Chief Veterinary Officer Dr Christine Middlemiss said that "a number of TB-like lesions were found" during the alpaca's post-mortem.In a statement, she said: "We have completed the initial post-mortem examination of Geronimo. "A number of TB-like lesions were found and in line with standard practice these are now undergoing further investigation. "These tests include the developing of bacteriological cultures from tissue samples which usually takes several months - we would expect to complete the full post-mortem and culture process by the end of the year."

Michael Winstanley ● 1376d

Yes, Sue, it was covered on the BBC TV News. I believe they are carrying out more in depth tests but it does highlights the rather dubious nature of the governments whole approach to bovine TB and the unreliability of testing, badger culling, etc. which even the report by Lord Krebs was very sceptical of.

Michael Ixer ● 1376d

Oh, no!!!  Poor Geronimo and his owner.  It really is unforgivable!

Ivonne Holliday ● 1376d