Forum Topic

Tirade against cyclists

Not much has changed in 125 years. From The Guardian 6 August 1896 https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/aug/06/should-police-constables-stop-furious-cyclists-1896?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Catherine Schade ● 1409d58 Comments

Road paint is a thing of the past in many towns. Road markings in Edinburgh are really poor thanks to years of wear and tear and lack of maintenance. Such a shame. One of Britain’s most beautiful cities.

Jonathan Callaway ● 1394d

A lot of evolution of road behaviour is going to take place. At 20 mph instead of 30 mph and in a modern more responsive car as opposed to one from the 1970's, dealing with this kind of thing is a lot easier. As car use reduces and cycling increases in response to the global climate crisis, it will become easier still. I'm slightly worried about ebikes and escooters which go faster and make this transition harder. But what people have to accept is that cycling is in the ascendancy and likely to be so for a couple of decades at least.After a total transition to zero carbon/hydrogen, there might be more sympathy for cars, but by that stage, sensor technology will have rendered collisions with cyclists a thing of the past - if your car is about to hit one it will just stop.

Michael Winstanley ● 1394d

I did like Section 39 of the Thai Rules of the Road.

Philippa Bond ● 1394d

I'm pretty sure that there are a lot of rules about what signs can be used - probably including paint - everywhere.  Although I have seen some very bright and colourful crossings pictured.  I don't know how reflective they are on a wet night - zebra crossings tend to rely on Belisha beacons and extra lights at each end of the crossing to show pedestrians waiting to cross.The two cyclists mentioned by Marc Blanchard should surely have fallen one behind the other so that they could be passed.  There is free cycle training on the internet and also advertised on the Wandsworth website.  It is disappointing that Wandsworth doesn't seem to have cycle maintenance sessions back up and running.https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/roads-and-transport/transport/active-modes-of-travel/cycling/cycle-training-and-skills/free-cycling-training-courses-for-adults-and-children/Another aspect to two way cycling is that drivers must remember to look both ways when reversing out of a driveway onto a road.  I was taught never to reverse onto a main road - it was/is in the Highway Code.  Perhaps we should be more patient in allowing people to reverse into their driveways/front garden parking - it can't be to do with the amount of traffic everywhere.  Of course doing that means reversing across the pavement with pedestrians likely to be approaching from both sides.  Caution needed by all. 

Philippa Bond ● 1394d

If it is well signed and there is room - and of course speeds are sensible (cars & bicycles) there should not be a problem. Some paint on the road wouldn't go amiss either.However Wandsworth are not very good at their signs/paint - or enforcing speeds for that matter!

Ed Robinson ● 1395d

Very sensible to look both ways. If I hadn't I'd have been wiped out years ago by a German tourist who turned sharp right from Earl's Court Road (one way south bound) into the wrong reside of Brompton Road (two way traffic) at speed only to be followed a few seconds later by his friend following! (Of course some on this forum might think that would have been a good thing ...) I don't think it was deliberate, just used to driving on the right and got confused by the one way system :-(

Michael Ixer ● 1395d

There has been legal two way cycling on Roehampton High Street for several years. I am not aware of a single accident this has caused but if anyone knows better please advise. As a cyclist I welcome them. As a pedestrian I was taught to look both ways every time and still do that even on one way streets. It’s not difficult.

Jonathan Callaway ● 1395d

But the rest of us walking or driving have to realise that it is not just encouraged but legal on a lot of roads. These are the new ones:Changes at North Passage, Rockland Road, Esmond Street and Winthorpe Roadhttp://www.putneysw15.com/default.asp?section=info&page=conroad020.htm

Philippa Bond ● 1395d

Riding wrong direction is becoming endemic. Probably have to wait for someone to be injured or worse before the penny drops: it is dangerous!

Alexander MacLeod ● 1395d

Unfortunately a number of cyclist take that for granted anyway. I had two coming at me, wrong direction on Montserrat Rd, one right one left to make things easier and they were outraged I stopped and put both my palms up in incomprehension and looked at them like they were dumb dumbs.

Marc Blanchard ● 1395d

If they can slow everyone down whatever their means of travel so that they take good notice and are considerate of each other that surely is a good thing.- I had manI notice that there is an article on contra-flow cycling in Putney on the front page.  Originally I posted about contra-flow cycling on the wrong thread - I had meant to highlight how you must look both ways to cross a road because just because a road has been one way for a long time doesn't mean that it will stay like that for everyone for ever. I believe the new Highway Code also gives guidance for pedestrians.

Philippa Bond ● 1397d

“It is maybe something to do with the accidents that result from non-enforcement - ie hardly any. Like the non-enforcement of speed limits, be it 20 mph in local residential roads or 70 mph on the motorway.”Well I can say with first hand experience, not that I’m on the side of this policy which is not based on any serious evidence of accidents along the stretch or anywhere locally, they do enforce it in Barnes at the junction of Mill Hill Rd and Station Rd. I’ve seen them myself and seen other reports online of them using that spot to ‘enforce’ the limit. They hide in Cedars Rd.

Freddie Francis ● 1401d

Michael W - it is strange that the law was enforced, admittedly only temporarily, against e-scooter riders. Fines, point and confiscations. Coincidence that it coincided with rental launch.No Phillipa - more fiction. See my above post about the Thai highway code :)

Ed Robinson ● 1401d

It is maybe something to do with the accidents that result from non-enforcement - ie hardly any. Like the non-enforcement of speed limits, be it 20 mph in local residential roads or 70 mph on the motorway. what anyone with any sense is really interest in (including the police) is truly dangerous behaviour rather than jobsworth fodder.

Michael Winstanley ● 1401d

There should be more enforcement but it is difficult when there are not enough police or ways of catching cyclists - although that film would have quite clearly identified some of them.  Apparently everybody always says that they want more enforcement but when it comes to the crunch of paying for it - they vote against it.As a pedestrian I often see cyclists jumping red lights, riding on the pavement and have been nearly missed several times on zebra crossings.  I don't believe pedestrians often reaise when they are on a shared cycle path/foot path as it isn't obvious - they just get cross because they see people doing something that they don't think they should be. Do you think the new Highway Code will make a difference?

Philippa Bond ● 1401d

Philippa, this has nothing to do with cycle lanes or the price of eggs.Everyone knows that there is no enforcement. Cyclist that jump lights do so because they can and consider their right of way above that of pedestrians. It is really that simple.Our politicians and police have decriminalised these offenses. Why do people pretend otherwise?There are however still many cyclist that do stop - I estimate around 10-15% but we are definitely in the minority.Countries that have good enforcement have a higher levels of safe cycling. Making enemies of pedestrians is not only wrong but completely counterproductive to promoting cycling IMO.

Ed Robinson ● 1401d

Cyclists jumping red lights and careering from road to pavement and vice versa is a big problem in London.  Also taking no notice of zebra crossings and overtaking stationary cars when pedestrians are crossing.Hopefully when they are given more priority on roads and on their own cycle lanes they will be less likely to do this. They do not have to use cycle lanes. They are sometimes allowed to cycle against the flow of traffic on one way roads and to cycle through roads with bollards which stop cars.

Philippa Bond ● 1402d

My apologies.  Did not see the irony on that.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1402d

"red lights do not apply to cyclist in Central London" was ironic I think

Marc Blanchard ● 1402d

That red lights do not apply to cyclist in Central London is not altogether true.If, for example and this is for an example's sake, the cyclist is heading towards Tibbets Corner and the pedestrian light by Pret a Manger goes red, there are no pedestrians crossing, the cyclist may continue cycling.  If the cyclist is on Chelverton Road and wishes to turn left, the cyclist may do so provided there are no cars coming.That is an entirely different story to a cyclist jumping red lights at a cross roads, or in the case of Chelverton Road, crossing the red lights in front of traffic trying to turn left or right from Chelverton Road.  Very different scenarios.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1402d

Disgusting. Give TFL the authority to fine those guys, and their P&L will be back in the black in a couple of months!

Marc Blanchard ● 1402d

Red lights don't apply to cyclists in central Londonhttps://twitter.com/Seaofchangefilm/status/1425706836234223619

Jess Davis ● 1403d

Thanks Philippa,I do not normally cycle to Wandsworth - although I used to cycle on the way to work in Battersea many years ago. I cycled the other day. Parts of the route have improved but other parts are just as bad as it was way back then.Not really 3 to 4 decades of improvement IMO - time for change!

Ed Robinson ● 1403d

https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/news/2020-news/february-2020/green-light-for-cycling-contraflow-scheme/

Philippa Bond ● 1403d

That is interesting Jonathan - (not the shirt - poor joke by me ). I could only find 2019 data that appears to show slightly higher fatalities than England & Wales but a lot less when looking at all accidents.Not unusual considering the population and geography.One of the things that has reduced accidents in London over the years is the low speeds due to congestion. We have all probably seen some examples since covid where drivers have been dramatically speeding due to the empty roads. Unfortunately removing congestion doesn't necessary illuminate speeding.Whilst cycling I have on several occasions had my worst experiences on 20mph local roads with no traffic.We will have to see what the London 2020 rates are like.https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/48481/reported-road-casualties-scotland-2019-publication-pdf-version.pdf

Ed Robinson ● 1406d

I'm in Edinburgh often enough to see the difference.  And I wasn't wearing an English football shirt at the time!

Jonathan Callaway ● 1406d

In fairness to Edinburgh the 20mph limit is widely ignored in London.WBC still say: "..monitor voluntary compliance with the new 20mph limit before considering other enforcement methods"https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/roads-and-transport/road-safety/borough-wide-20mph-speed-limit/It seems a bit of a generalisation based on one driver - I'm sure that there are plenty of London drivers that would not stop and Edinburgh that will. Perhaps the St George's flag top didn't help :-)

Ed Robinson ● 1407d

unfortunately I have had to do a lot of driving in SW London in recent months, in my experience scooters/mopeds have become a far bigger problem than bad drivers or bad cyclists. The one big change which I applaud is the 20mph zones, they  definitely make driving less stressful and help the traffic flow.

Adam Tripp ● 1407d

They obviously know a sassenach when they see one.

Simon Knight ● 1407d

From my personal experience London may have deteriorated but it isn't as bad as Edinburgh where it's every man for himself and 20 mph limits are stoutly resisted and widely ignored.  I nearly got run over there when I expected a driver to slow down for me as I crossed from a traffic island to the opposite pavement (next to traffic lights).  In London the driver would probably have slowed down, but not a bit of it!

Jonathan Callaway ● 1407d

Ed. We definitely have an issue with cuts in the police in the UK; mainly because of cuts in numbers and closure of police stations over the last decade; agreed, we need more police on the beat.However, if we're looking at driving standards, going back to the '70s, '80s and 90s I'd put London over Rome, Naples, Athens and Paris - in fact the UK was better than Southern Europe generally. Standards in Northern Europe I'd say were comparable or better than the UK. But over the past decade or so I'd say London driving standards have degenerated, probably because of frustration with increased traffic and difficulties parking, while I think the standard has got better in Greece and Italy - possibly because of increased enforcement? Difficult to judge quantitatively particularly as I drive infrequently the days - the last time I drove on the continent was in Spain four years ago, which was generally quite pleasant except being navigated through Barcelona :-)

Michael Ixer ● 1407d

I completely agree in that it isn't any one group of road users/pavement users who are not behaving as they should and I agree that it is a shame that there aren't more police on our streets and that there aren't more local police stations but people tend to want things but not want to pay properly for them.

Philippa Bond ● 1408d

Another self-appointed censor. Maybe you should keep your tedious opinions to yourself also? Or at least restrict your comments to the subject matter rather than have a go at other people. This is not the first time you have targetted me. So the same advice to you, stick to your balls and leave men alone.

Michael Winstanley ● 1408d

"police person on every corner .."Michael,Probably easier to spot an owl than it is to see police on foot.Other countries seem to manage. Go to most cities and you will see police on foot. The UK has a odd policing policy that is clearly not working - when you compare to other cities our crime is higher in the UK.Let's be honest it is all short term cost cutting.Crossing PHS at Chelverton Rd the other day serval violations were visible. A car in a long queue which was not moving drove on the wrong side of the road and through a red light which was red before he even moved.Another car on OHS blocked the crossing then decided to reverse late almost taking out several pedestrian.A car that turned into Chelverton Rd had several young children and a baby not in appropriate seating.And that was just 4 wheel violation in a couple of minutes.Bad behaviour is contagious and unless there is a major change which seems very unlikely it will only get worse.

Ed Robinson ● 1408d

Maybe take a break from the forum MW.The constant rants are getting a bit tiresome tbh.

Colin Redmond ● 1408d

"Fake posts"? I assure you, each and every one of my posts is genuine - you have not imagined them. As to them being "nonsense" - that's a matter of opinion. But consider how much sense yours make. The other day you went completely overboard based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the forum code (still waiting for an apology on that one). Today you display some considerable lack of appreciation of the meaning of the word "context" - I see a post from Lisa Cottam which you might care to consider as it explains this in a bit more detail.My advice would be to stick to the balls and avoid the men.

Michael Winstanley ● 1408d

Lisa, sit in the coffee shop at the end of Chelverton Rd you will soon change your mind. They don't take any notice of the traffic lights.

Barbara Stevens ● 1408d

Correction: that should read "litigation" not "legislation"!And, Ed, I'd agree that enforcement and a high chance of being caught transgressing is important, but in reality there won't be a police person on every corner checking motorists are giving way to crossing pedestrians; that comes down to social responsibility, opinions and expectations?

Michael Ixer ● 1408d

Perhaps it is a coincidence that some cities with the best cycling infrastructure also have effective enforcement of their highway code equivalent.There seems to be a line of thought that we can achieve the same levels of cycling and safety in the UK while completely ignoring the highway code.It would be good for those putting forward such views to provide some evidence or logic. I admit it may be my failure to grasp the concept behind their thinking!

Ed Robinson ● 1408d

Ed, I said it was "interesting" not that it would necessarily change things :-) Not immediately anyway. However, I suspect that if it is used to determine culpability in the event of accidents in criminal and civil legislation then it will generate cultural change over time. I remember when the breathalyser was introduced in the late '60s many, particularly older drivers, tried to ignore it or even claimed they drove better after six pints; these days I don't know anyone who'd admit to drinking and driving, in fact most people I know adhere to zero alcohol when driving. I seem to recall there were similar attitudes and a gradual change in the wearing of seat belts. 

Michael Ixer ● 1408d

So Lisa you agree it's ok to be a 'cheeky' cyclist?Up and down curb on paths, through red lights and failing to stop at zebra crossings?Unfortunately this argument will just go around in circles depending where you sit.

Jess Davis ● 1408d

I disagree, and think Micheal W brought some much needed rationality to the discussion. The news story about the cyclist causing a death stands out precisely due to its rarity. No one blinks at the 400 or so killed by motor vehicle each year: https://www.statista.com/statistics/866632/road-fatalities-pedestrians-great-britain/And for all the cyclists embarrassing us all, how many do you see being responsible? No one starts a thread, “Just saw 3 cyclists stop for a red light”. As for the bad cyclists, I can’t help but wonder whether some of this behaviour is a result of having no joined up cycle provision so they can’t feel safe and confident sharing the road with 2 ton vehicles.

Lisa Cottam ● 1408d

Michael, Is there no end to your nonsense posts on this forum?I also walk, cycle and drive but in many cases other 'cheeky' cyclists as you like to call it give the rest of us cyclists a bad name.Many cyclists often up on paths, going through red lights, and ignoring pedestrian crossings when they are going too fast to stop!I see it time and time again.Wake up and stop your fake posts.Reference the death below.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-58009784

Joseph Chadwick ● 1408d

Sorry. TLDR. If there was a point, maybe you could express it in a couple of short sentences?

Michael Winstanley ● 1408d

Michael I,Here is a link to Thailand's highway code (in English):http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0140_5.pdfA reminder that without proper enforcement highway codes are merely words on paper!

Ed Robinson ● 1409d

I have considerable experience as a pedestrian, cyclist and motorist. I have never had my life put at risk by a cyclist in any of these roles. However, in all 3 roles, there have been numerous occasions upon which I have narrowly avoided death and/or serious injury as a result of the behaviour of motorists.There are cheeky cyclists - I have been one/am one  myself - but I think we need to view their behaviour in a proper context.

Michael Winstanley ● 1409d

A Friday evening in April about 7pm I was on the pavement in Drybrugh Rd walking towards Upper Richmond Rd. I didn't hear the woman cyclist come up behind me until she nudged me and told me to get out of her way. I was too astonished to hurl at her the expletives she deserved, There was no traffic in the road at the time,This Wednesday morning I narrowly missed being hit by an electric scooter in Howards Lane. Young guy, perhaps teenager, traveling at an astonishing speed.

Elizabeth Balsom ● 1409d

We all have to anticipate (or try to) all sorts of hazards wherever and whatever we and they are doing while out and about!    

Philippa Bond ● 1409d

Sounds about right with their behaviour. I once had a cyclist have a go at me because I braked suddenly.... To avoid hitting someone's dog who I had clocked going into the bushes on the Toepath and was now coming out of them. As a driver, I do scan ahead to keep an eye out for hazards as they appear or particularly muddy ruts and rocks in the gravel. As a dog owner, I keep a special look out for them as I can't guarantee their behaviours, similarly toddlers. This bloke was riding me tighter than the Red Arrows do at 500mph.

Thomas Jones ● 1409d

The issue with the Highway Code changing something is that most older drivers won't change how they drive anyway. How many drivers over the age of 40 have taken the Theory Test and Modern driving test. As my parents have previously said, it was about driving safely and knowing the basics about lights, mirrors and vehicle maintenance, even then it was 5 or so Qs. Furthermore, most pedestrians are so glued to their phones that when they step out to a Zebra crossing, they're only noticing a vehicle has stopped after we've flashed or tooted them and with the increase of earbuds and headphones, it's taking a longer toot than necessary, as we sit there with engines idling. Some pedestrians don't even realise they have priority when they step on the bubbles, they presume it's a crossing to stop mid-road crossings but we have no J-Walking laws to make that an issue. Generally, if schools stepped up and educated kids and parents about what some crossings mean, to keep them safe, then it would be worth more than teaching about changing sex when you're 6.

Thomas Jones ● 1409d

Did you really learn to only look one way before crossing a road?

Philippa Bond ● 1409d

This morning walking with a pushchair towards Fulham... Cyclists on pavement in PHS (silver medal for looking outraged that I wouldn't step aside for him)and on the bridge (bronze). The gold medal goes with no doubt to the cyclist coming from Fulham at full speed, wrong side of the road, cutting through the pedestrians crossing Lower Richmond Road, then going on the wrong side again into LRR, then cutting the middle lane (continuous white line) to finally go in his normal lane, or the pavement I couldn't see...

Marc Blanchard ● 1409d

What is the point in teaching a child to cross the road, Oh it's coming that way, Oh I looked the wrong way, it's alright Johnny it's not your fault it's that naughty man doesn't know what he's doing. All the children and old people knocked over I wonder why.

Barbara Stevens ● 1409d

A lot of road users don't know, don't follow or have forgotten the current highway code. It is updated every so often - and some signs are more commonly used or more unusual than others eg the no motor vehicles sign (Evel Knievel as Matt Palmer named it) which has made millions for Councils across London.There are children who have not been taught how to cross the road - something that all parents used to teach their children assiduously.Hopefully more children are now learning their cycling proficiency in school - just as they used to do.

Philippa Bond ● 1409d

I agree in principal with what the HC is trying to do but worried many car users won't expect it. For example if I see a person waiting to cross Lytton Grove say (from West Hill) and I indicate left and then stop to allow them to cross rather than turn in someone will go into the back of me.

Gabrielle OMahony ● 1409d

Interesting that the new Highway Code sets a hierarchy of priorities foir road users which gives pedestrians top priority, with cyclists second and cars down the list after horse riders and motorcyclists. e-scooters aren't included as they're not yet legal in the UK except in the areas where hiring of them is being trialled.https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2021/07/29/new-highway-code-to-rule-that-motorists-should-cede-priority-to-pedestrians-and-cyclists/

Michael Ixer ● 1409d

Article just highlights that cyclists have been a pita for at least 125 years.  No surprise there.

Sue Hammond ● 1409d

I think Barbara wrote the first letter.... ;)

Matt Palmer ● 1409d