Forum Topic

RNLI chief hits out over migrant rescue abuse

The head of the RNLI has defended lifeboat crews who help rescue migrants at sea, after it emerged some were being heckled by the public.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-57999224This is beyond despicable and totally unacceptable.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1418d61 Comments

Are you a Farrago fan? Just checking.

Freddie Francis ● 1413d

Very funny. Do quote me.

Freddie Francis ● 1413d

He did not call you scum. He referred to Farage as an "opportunist scum".To take offence in this is really very far fetched.  You may like Farage, I personally do not, for very many reasons.Do not take personal offense on this; it was not meant for you.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1413d

Well for starters, how dare you address me like that?I described Nigel Farage as "opportunistic scum", a comment by which I stand. Farage has made a career and a personal fortune out of exploiting others. Whilst he was leader of Ukip, £400k mysteriously disappeared, ostensibly to fund a call centre (which never appeared). His "Brexit Party" was a limited company of which he was a majority owner, soliciting contributions from the public.In his political "career" he has told lie after lie. Don't get me started on his bronwn-nosing of Trump. He never really had a sucessful "City" career - his old firm never made much money and eventually collapsed into bankruptcy. Now he seeks to exploit refugees.There is a very clear Code of Conduct for this forum. It is not for you to add to it your own rules. The level of moderation is poor, to be fair, but if you would care to refer to it, it says:Do not use the Forum to threaten, harass, stalk, or abuse others PARTICIPATING in the Forum.Should Nigel Farage ever start to participate in the forum, I shall cease to refer to him as "scum", as the Code of Conduct requires. In the meantime, I shall strive to present an honest desription of him - why should that be "unacceptable" to anyone? If you want to describe him as a saint, that is perfectly acceptable to me, it is just that I disgree.

Michael Winstanley ● 1413d

Please refer to Winstanley post 0011hrs 31/7/21

Joseph Chadwick ● 1413d

I must step in.Nobody called anybody scum.  If they did, please give me the example.Michael Winstanley has strong views and some I do not agree with.  But he is free to express them.This does not mean he has directed any abuse at any one.Unless you tell me otherwise.Thank you.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1413d

Actually, Jess and Ade, given that Mr Farage isn't keen on anyone coming to the UK whether it's via freedom of movement from the EU/EEA or people on boats who've come from further afield via Europe I'd agree my comment wasn't relevant to the argument. 

Michael Ixer ● 1413d

How dare you try and defend your language Winstanley.Calling someone scum on this forum is unacceptable.

Joseph Chadwick ● 1414d

Maybe you should say what arguments you disagree with and present some case, rather than launching in to your maiden post with a personalised yet vague attack. What is your definition of "unacceptable"?The main reason new people are not "joining the group" (which has been running for many years) is that it is a low-rent website way past its sell-by date, frequented by a small number of people, with very poor moderation (yes, that bit is actually true). Take a look at Nextdoor Digest - that's the future. This site has already started asking for ex gratia contributions - it can't have  long to go.

Michael Winstanley ● 1414d

As I said, not intentionally intended as baiting but more a recognition of reality, and sometimes tone can be wrong (as I've noted elsewhere). I'd completely agree wealth is not spread evenly but I think the inequalities are a lot more complex when one looks at the global distribution of wealth - and it's shifting with economies in India and China, etc rising. I guess it's also something we may view differently depending on background, experiences, etc?

Michael Ixer ● 1414d

Thanks Ade, I agree wholeheartedly. I'm sure many others do to.It's easy to say the race stuff when you are wealthy.

Jess Davis ● 1414d

Maybe the admin of this site should issue a timeout to Winstanley, Jones and Francis as they have all put out unacceptable posts in the last week. The type of aggression by these 3 are the reason many new people are not joining the group.Admin, why are you not shadow banning these three?It's unacceptable!

Joseph Chadwick ● 1414d

We all know the wealth is controlled by a small pocket of white men.The majority of white kids are not from this arena.They are like the rest of us and part of the other 95% who just try to make ends meet.The racism baiting is not clever.The issue is not black verses white but the working class of all colours against the 0.001% rule makers.Wealth is not evenly spread.

Ade Alegbe ● 1414d

Alba & Jess,I think these are the latest statistic - link below. Section 5 is interesting because we are now out of the agreement.5. Dublin RegulationIn 2019, the latest year available, there were 2,236 requests from other member states to transfer individuals into the UK under the Dublin Regulation. There were 714 transfers into the UK under the Dublin Regulation. The majority (496) of these transfers came from Greece.Over the same period, there were 3,258 requests from the UK to transfer individuals out of the UK to return them to other member states. There were 263 transfers out of the UK under the Dublin Regulation. Of these transfers, 104 (40%) were transfers to Germany and 53 (20%) were transfers to France.https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/immigration-statistics-year-ending-june-2020/how-many-people-do-we-grant-asylum-or-protection-to#asylum-applications

Ed Robinson ● 1414d

Hello Alda,Congratulations on your Sherlock Holmes endeavours!!!Yes, we all go off topic from time to time, but I do not think they or we are as vitriolic as some posts above.Watch this space!

Ivonne Holliday ● 1414d

Ade. I agree with your sentiments, although I'm not sure that the UK is alone in having poor, underprivileged white children; I think it is also true in the US from speaking to friends there? Don't you think that some issues in the would arise from the fact that most of the wealth seems to be controlled by white men? I'm not trying to be divisive, just explore the subject, and prepared to be corrected. Obviously, there are organisations such as the Gates foundations trying to use their wealth for global improvement, although some seem to question their agenda and methods. And, apologies, this is going easy off topic!

Michael Ixer ● 1414d

Well there's a classic piece of whataboutery if ever I saw one. Other people wander of topic so that means you should?These people on the dinghies are not sneaking off to hide somewhere and work in a sweatshop or as a drug mule. They declare themselves to the authorities and claim asylum. It is then up to the UK legal system to determine whether they are genuine refugees under the law, not to you. A British court decides whether they are genuine refugees. That should be good enough for anyone. In this context it should be recognised that any honest refugee would like to earn a living/contribute to the country that takes them in. You may wish to then term them "economic migrants" which is something of a slur - but show me some non-economic migrants - you know the refugees that want to live off the state that takes them in for ever and a day rather than make a living for themselves. Then much is made, repeatedly, of the predominance of young adults and of males in these dinghies. Well how many female children do you think are going to get this far? How many oap's. You should realise that in the countries they come from, the majority of people are young, unlike our aging population. You should also appreciate that refugee families deliberately send their fittest and most able on ahead to establish a bridgehead. You would do the same. If a young male establishes a valid asylum claim, his family can then come later under family reunion migration laws.According to news reports, 97% of the dinghy folk have valid asylum claims. The majority come from Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan, ie are genuine refugees. You may object that they come this far instead of stopping in the first safe country they come to. But international law allows them to do that. The majority do actually stop before they get this far. Thus as a nation we receive tiny numbers of asylum applicants relative to the number of refugees setting out originally from these countries. Our main strategy as a nation is to make it difficult for people to turn up here in the first place and claim their legitimate right to asylum.The traffickers enable refugees to take this final step, in exchange for money and whilst putting said refugees at risk. Is this ethical? Certainly not - the traffickers are not acting ethically. Let's not take that out on the refugees though. In a perfect world they could present their legitimate claim to asylum in the UK without first having to risk being drowned. That to me is the real issue.

Michael Winstanley ● 1414d

Alba & Jess, regarding the economic would need to look at any stats to see how many are refused. Perhaps later this evening.We should remember however in any country during war, natural disasters and political/economical unrest (pandemics too)- it is a fact that those with the most means or who are most mobile will have the best opportunity to flee. Unfortunately the majority of any population will be left behind.In some countries survival does depend on economics and not just the USA :) which can complicate any judgement.IMO joined up long term policies are needed and if the UK through its hard but also soft influence (BBC Iran for example) should not make matters worse.

Ed Robinson ● 1414d

The issue is it doesn't really matter if the people in boats are refugees from war zones, economic migrants, have paid criminals to transport them, etc, if their boats are sinking the RNLI has an obligation to save them and take them to the nearest place of safe harbour. Perhaps some in the RNLI feel that they're solving a problem that the border guards, coast guards or foreign office should be addressing; I don't know, but if that's the case it's something the government should be addressing and that's surely where people should be directing their displeasure (and it would seem in some cases, anger) not at members of the RNLI?

Michael Ixer ● 1414d

I work in care Michael. Many white children also in poverty.It seems to me the rich white people do not care about the poor white children. Very strange as this seems to be unique to this country. Other countries care about their own children and citizens.This white privilege approach is no good.There is only one race, the human race.We are all one. Division is horrible.

Ade Alegbe ● 1414d

Ade. Sorry, it wasn't meant to be divisive, just a recognition of the reality that some of us had advantages in life that others haven't? It would be nice to believe we lived somewhere which was a meritocracy but I don't believe that is the case?

Michael Ixer ● 1414d

Michael please stop this nonsense of white male privilege You are causing unnecessary division at a time when we all need to come together dear dear

Ade Alegbe ● 1414d

Hi Ivonne,I have just looked at your history for a few minutes and I see you have been a prolific poster for several years.Just looking at a few of your posts I can see you have gone slightly off topic on some of the threads belonging to other people too.Do you want me to point any of them out for you?Therefore I am thinking you are using your last post as a cover, because you don't want to address the real issue of economic migrant verses refugee?  I would like to discuss further with you your thoughts on the people traffickers and whether you think this is ethical?

Alda Bruno ● 1414d

Alda,The issue of immigration is not the purpose of my post regarding the RNLI.I am horrified that the volunteers have not only been abused verbally but also had bottles thrown at them.This is not acceptable.If you wish to discuss immigration, refugees vs economic migrants, please feel free to start your own post.Thank you.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1414d

Hi Ed, thank-you for providing some statistics, but I would appreciate to know whether you think these guys crossing in boats are travelling direct from a war zone?Bear in mind we know they are paying thousands of pounds to traffickers?

Alda Bruno ● 1414d

Freddie, to my knowledge no-one on this forum is criticising the RNLI.So my question for you is, do you think that a migrant from a war-torn country is the same thing as an economic migrant?  Nearly all the dinghy migrants are young men and very few women and children.

Jess Davis ● 1414d

Alda, there is a interesting article here that makes a number of points which I was not aware of.Once at sea how they got there isn't the RNLI concern their lives are.Claiming asylum in the first safe country was a EU thing apparently - 'Dublin III' and we left the EU and hence those agreements. The referendum was over 5 years ago the Conservative government(s) must not have seen it as a priority IMO.Under the previous EU agreement migrants could be returned to the first member state but with no no such agreement they have the right under international law to claim asylum in UK I assume.What is also interesting is the countries that they are fleeing - the top two the UK has had a hand in destabilising.However you look at it this looks like a UK governments (past and present) issue not the RNLI.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-53734793https://www.unhcr.org/uk/asylum-in-the-uk.html

Ed Robinson ● 1414d

They are not a taxi service. That’s plainly a devicive way of making them a skapegoat. What you are actually saying is leave the ‘migrants’ of whatever flavour you choose to call them, to their possibly fatal ends with no sympathy from the likes of you who would simply say it was their choice and tough luck. The RNLI are a life-saving organisation with no political interests. Criticising them for doing their job is Just a weak minded way of attributing blame at someone’s door.

Freddie Francis ● 1414d

I have been researching the subject matter, and the public are wondering why the RNLI are acting as a taxi service for the economic migrants. I don't think this is a criticism?The economic migrants are already in a safe country and are paying the traffickers £1000's to come to the UK from the safe country France.Surely people can see the difference between the economic migrants and refugees escaping war torn countries in other parts of the world. Some people in the messages above are not addressing the real issue here, which is economic migrants cheating their way to the UK. Instead just using the headline to rant about Nigel Farage.

Alda Bruno ● 1414d

Ivonne (and Ed & Philippa). I just thought this thread had drifted from the original point about the RNLI being unfairly criticised. I don't see anything wrong in discussing the issues around why the RNLI has been put in that poosition, or where such criticisms have arisen. It just seemed sad that the thread had degenerated into a somewhat disrespectful exchange - although people need to keep in mind sometimes respect needs to be earned, particularly by public figures who know their opinion will influence others; those we don't really know on this forum perhaps should be treated with respect by default? Not meant to be a lecture, just some points to consider - and remember, sometimes it's difficult to get the tone right particularly if one has strong views in an issue!

Michael Ixer ● 1414d

I'm sorry Ivonne if you feel that my post caused a problem but it is ignorance of the causes of the movement of desperate peoples and a lack of compassion that is probably a bigger problem.  Assumptions with no knowledge or proof or insight are ugly.  The shortsightedness is stunning.If we weren't so fond of cheap everything no matter where it comes from and how or who made it and the conditions in which it was made we might have a better skilled workforce here ourselves. We seem to have no standards any more.

Philippa Bond ● 1414d

Ivonne,Clearly those posting negative comments nationally about the RNLI have probably never known anyone that has drown or been saved by the RNLI or other international bodies that support the various UN conventions.That said we should be able to have a sensible conversation around the underfunding and shortcomings of our borders enforcement after more than 12 years of Conservative governments.Let's not blame the people that save lives but look at those that create the circumstances where lives are put at risk!We should be reviewing not only our foreign policy but also our investment in border protection!

Ed Robinson ● 1414d

Thank you so much Michael Ixer for rescuing the thread!I posted the news about the RNLI crews being abused which horrified me no end!!!  It was taken over by somebody renaming it migrants and immigrants and some of the posts that ensued were eye wateringly shameful.It has been a tradition from centuries ago that ships should rescue people in distress at sea.  This has been imbedded into two UN Conventions, namely UNCLOS and SAR.  By the way, the UK is a signatory to both of them.  The RNLI follows this tradition and their boats are manned by volunteers who risk their lives - day or night - to save others, come hell or high water. People are complaining about a few thousand migrants or refugees arriving in British shores, but these are people who, when Greece and Italy were receiving hundreds of thousands of people and asking for help, just shrugged their shoulders.Returning to the RNLI, their virtues should be extolled no end!!  What amazing volunteers!That these volunteers are being abused is shameful to put it mildly.By the way, "The Flying Farage", great name. Perhaps I would prefer "The Fleeting Farage".

Ivonne Holliday ● 1414d

The admins of thos forum, if they even exist, are beyond useless. It’s always been pretty vile here but this thread has turned a nasty corner.

Freddie Francis ● 1414d

There is a big difference between direct communication with someone and reference to 3rd parties. I think you know this anyway. If Nigel Farage starts to participate in this forum I shall treat him with the respect which the forum rules call for. Until then my description stands. Meanwhile, do you stand by your description of me as "drunken" and "vermin", or would you like to offer an apology?

Michael Winstanley ● 1414d

I would say calling someone 'opportunist scum' is name calling, wouldn't you Michael?

Jess Davis ● 1414d

But you see, no-one has called you. or Ash anything. Merely disagreed with your arguments. It's me that got called vermin, drunk and now "a clown" and "rubbish". I'm really happy to have logical arguments "dished out", but this is beyond you - all you can manage is name calling and worse - "oh how clever my mate is to call you names". The fact that you and your ilk  have to descend to this kind of pathetic playground behaviour shows how hollow your position really is. Calling someone silly names is not "criticism", it's simply abuse.

Michael Winstanley ● 1415d

Perhaps some good will come out of it ... someone has started a fundraiser for a new RNLI hovercraft to be called "The Flying Farage" 😶https://www.gofundme.com/f/buy-a-new-rnli-hovercraft-called-the-flying-farage

Michael Ixer ● 1415d

WHOA Ash! Harsh but true :-)I agree though, If one can't take the criticism, one shouldn't dish it out.

Mike Essam ● 1415d

Ed regarding your comment - If you do not want people seeking refuge in your house -  perhaps it is not a good idea to burn their houses down!I couldn't agree more. The West has caused it's own problems regarding migrants and is now experiencing the consequences.Winstanley, you are happy to show disrespect to others and shoot off your mouth, so I will repay the compliment. I think you are a clown and a bag of garbage!

Ash Jones ● 1415d

Actually I've replied to this once already but having reflected, I just want to make it even clearer how I feel about this. Accusing someone of being drunk (or mad, or a child, liar, having a vested interest etc) is a low enough behaviour in a debate (play the ball not the man as they say). However, characterising people as vermin - that's right out of the Goebbels playbook. It is what the Nazis used to say about Jews - they made propaganda films comparing them to rats. I totally resent this description and think you should apologise. It is in direct breach of the forum 's rules.

Michael Winstanley ● 1415d

I think what they mean by "balance" is more racists like them.

Michael Winstanley ● 1415d

I do not drink! I have been sober for ten years. Maybe that contributes to my insomnia but it is a price worth paying. And if you find my points (all of which were true and verifiable) uncomfortable then get yourself some black shorts and start marching, I guess you are the type.

Michael Winstanley ● 1415d

I would just add that the UK's participation and support for the various wars that have added to the situation.Of course large numbers opposed the various wars and the previous Putney MP consistently voted for overseas military action I believe.If you do not want people seeking refuge in your house -  perhaps it is not a good idea to burn their houses down!

Ed Robinson ● 1415d

I think what you mean by “balance” is more people agreeing with your point of view. Given the great divide in this country is still around Brexit and that 70%+ of Putney people voted Remain I think the pro-Brexit side are very well represented here. But not many on either side are listening to each other or accepting the other side may occasionally have a point. So “debate” is essentially pointless and only the noisiest ones still bother.

Jonathan Callaway ● 1415d

Welcome Mike and to other fresh faces here like Jess.  It would be nice to have more balance on this forum.  Hopefully we may start to see that soon.

Mike Warman ● 1415d

I agree Jess.The viewing figures for the Farage show at 7pm on GB News Mon-Thurs normally beats both the BBC and Sky for viewing figures. After all he single handedly encouraged 52% of the population to vote for Freedom.This forum has been out of touch with the rest of the country for many years now.I guess it is why very few fresh faces join.

Mike Essam ● 1415d

However, Mr W does make some valid points about the RNLI being a charity and not a government agency whose remit is to safeguard and rescue people at see and has no authority to take them to France, only to get them to the nearest safe harbour. (I suspect a cross channel trip might endanger the lives of both the lifeboat crews and those they rescue.)Mr Farage is looking at this from a point of white, male privilege* so perhaps should take more care with his language? But I think we can all agree it is the trafficking criminals who should be tracked down and prosecuted? (And I'd agree that's easier said than done, although I suspect one way of doing that is stricter regulations to track money laundering of illicit income, something I'm not sure Brexiters like Mr Farage are really in support of?)* and, OK, I might be accused of that.

Michael Ixer ● 1415d

Some really good posts on here until it was hijacked by the late night drunken post from Winstanley.It is a shame that vermin come out of the woodwork in the early hours of the morning and ruin a thoroughly interesting thread.

Jess Davis ● 1415d

This piece from 2015 gives an insight into the difference and plight of both refugees and migrants.People have always moved around for various reasons.  If you do your family tree you are sure to find someone who was born somewhere other than England.  If you intervene in other countries' internal affairs people move and if you don't they move. One thing they always seem to say though is that they would prefer to be living peacefully in their own countries.  A lot of people moving countries are also very well educated - doctors, teachers etc.  https://climatenewsnetwork.net/climate-and-laws-trap-islanders/You should also question why we have shortages of trained people here - in no particular order: doctors, nurses, fruit and vegetable pickers, HGV drivers...

Philippa Bond ● 1415d

No he doesn't - Farage is opportunist scum. His claim as to fund-raising for them is likely as true as anything else he has claimed about his failed "career" in the City. He, the tabloids and "people commenting on social media" have no actual idea what the RNLI are doing at the detailed level. The "taxi service"claim is utter nonsense.But the RNLI is not a government funded public service, it is a charity funded by donations. If you don't like what they are doing, don't give. Apparently the news coverage has increased their donations. Here is the link if anyone would like to add to that:https://rnli.org/support-us/give-money/donate

Michael Winstanley ● 1415d

And what would you do? Send your wife and children on ahead? Or go on your own and get them here via family reuinion rights once youhave been granted asylum? There is nothing ungenuine about the people in the dinghies. 97% of them (according to reports)have valid asylum claims. Most are from Afghanistan and Iraq, countries which we have destabilised.The RNLI's job is to safeguard and rescue people at sea. Expecting them to ferry these people back to France shows a total ignorance of how they operate. What you suggest is not even possible.But if you can point to these "genuine refugee families" and how we (or, particularly, the RNLI) could help them to make the crossing instead, please explain how you expect that would work.As regards the people traffickers, yes, they should receive heavy sentences. But look, if you have a few grand to spare, you can buy a RIB and a few life jackets in Belgium fairly cheaply; it's not clear that all these people are actually being trafficked.

Michael Winstanley ● 1415d

Michael you are missing the point. Farage has said he has the utmost respect for the RNLI and often stood with a bucket on Liverpool St station collecting for them when he worked in the city. Farage has said his friends in the RNLI are considering their future, and one has already quit due to the pressures. I can see you are just using this episode to take a cheap shot at Farage.

Mike Essam ● 1415d

Jess. I chose a moderate term as apparently people have abusing the lifeboat crews for saving lives. I believe it was stirred up by Farage who accused the RNLI of being a refugee taxi service? Obviously, if the border patrol are incapable of policing the seas and picking up these people the RNLI has no alternative but to rescue them and save lives. Perhaps Farage should go after the criminals, the people smugglers, and not make cheap quips about the RNLI?

Michael Ixer ● 1415d

Really refreshing to read the last 3 posts.I very rarely comment on this forum as it has become too much of an echo chamber, so lovely to hear some common sense view points for a change.

Mike Essam ● 1415d

It is indeed despicable that people are shouting at the RNLI staff.There is that phrase in the corporate world, and in the public sector, which says 'follow the money.' As a nation, we need to come up with creative and effective ways to destroy the business model of people trafficking profiteering to help solve the problem of cashing in on migration.

Jo Amadi ● 1415d

Michael - I haven't seen much criticism as such, just many people on social media asking why are RNLI acting as a taxi service for the migrants?The Border patrol should be carrying out this role, not the RNLI.Ash made a relevant point that these boats full of young men are economic migrants travelling from a safe country and not genuine refugees. These young men have paid thousands of pounds to get here and as you can see from the photos they are often wearing designer clothes and carrying smart phones. The people smugglers are making a fortune out of this, so I would suggest the pro-economic migrant camp need to address from this angle rather than take a cheap shot at those who have reservations at the current border crisis.

Jess Davis ● 1415d

As they are coming from a safe country, they are, by definition, not refugees but economic migrants. The RNLI should pick them up and take them back to the originating safe country that they came from i.e. France.The people traffickers, to whom these young men have paid thousands of pounds to, should receive life sentences for putting these economic migrants at risk of losing their lives.Unfortunately the economic migrants coming across on the boats are 95% single males aged between 20-40 rather than the genuine refugee families made up of men, women and children and therefore more genuine refugee families are not getting the help they need.

Ash Jones ● 1415d

And totally despicable that the RNLI should be attacked for rescuing these people at sea.

Philippa Bond ● 1418d

There is this absolutely brilliant poem I read recently by Brian Bilston called Refugees.  It is very important that you read the whole thing.  Reading this is something I think should be on the national curriculum.https://twitter.com/brian_bilston/status/976511621366517760However I think we should also be concerned about the differences between refugees and migrants as they tend to be used interchangeably.

Philippa Bond ● 1418d

I agree Ivonne, it's unimaginable that people are criticising, nevermind harassing, members of the lifeboat service for saving lifes; how much lower can people get?

Michael Ixer ● 1418d