Forum Topic

The future of money

I've noticed the British media are starting to publish some articles that were previously called 'conspiracy theories' by many about the transformation of banking as we know it today.https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9821855/Rishi-Sunak-plans-replace-cash-official-digital-currency.htmlThis includes cash completely being withdrawn from circulation within the next decade.In the future, the public will have a direct CBDC (Central Bank Digital Currency) account with the Bank of England rather than the retail bank accounts we hold today.With the BOE (Bank of England) being joined at the hip with the government, this takes out the layer of privacy that currently exists between the government and the individual via a high street bank account.No more private transactions, the government will be able to see your every move.It will be impossible to make spontaneous cash donations to the homeless, and pay for the likes of babysitters, domestic cleaners, window cleaners and gardeners in cash.Will a cashless society be better or worse for the general public?

Alda Bruno ● 1421d22 Comments

Thanks for the link Alda.It's amazing how few people can see what is happening.Not long ago everyone was calling this stuff a conspiracy theory, but not anymore!

Mike Essam ● 1415d

This link explaining the last 18 months of lockdown and the future CBDC makes much sense to mehttps://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1419293260468690946.html

Alda Bruno ● 1415d

That's an interesting observation, Jonathan. I can remember the days when credit card payments sometimes incurred an additional charge! I wonder, do banks have any preference regarding debit versus credit cards? I always use a credit card for payments both online and in person, and only use my debit card for withdrawing cash at an ATM on the basis that in the event of fraud I can withhold payment of the credit card bill but with a debit card the money's already been taken from my account and there may be a dispute and delay getting it restored. (Plus I like the free interest period with the credit card.)

Michael Ixer ● 1421d

I agree, Jonathan. Another point is the more our finances and banking go online, the more jobs are going to be lost in the banking industry and more branches are going to close.

Martine Guy ● 1421d

Ed, perhaps that's the world class aspect of the test and trace system that we've failed to spot: supplier payment anonymity?

Michael Ixer ● 1421d

Martine, I agree this is an important point and I hope it is factored in by the banks.  But as I said earlier they would dearly love to be able to do away with the costs of handling cash - and are pushing these costs on to their cash-using customers wherever they can.It's not just about people who prefer to use cash, it is also the considerable number who don't have the option because they don't have cards, bank accounts etc. ​For what it's worth the Bank of England has committed to maintaining access to cash and is working with all the cash processing companies, supermarkets and the like to make sure the costs of the system are fairly shared and not passed on to the consumer every time.

Jonathan Callaway ● 1421d

"If this government said your "Britcoin" transactions were untraceable would you believe them, or trust the trechnology? ??"Michael they have done quite well in making billions on Test and Trace disappear!

Ed Robinson ● 1421d

I think I am against a cashless society because there are people who like using cash — they can see how much they have to spend when the money is real and not online or on a card.  I wonder what mental health charities and experts have to say about this.  Not everyone is online or is able to cope with online banking or cards.  I think there needs to be a lot of consideration given to the vulnerable who may not be able to manage their lives in a cashless society.

Martine Guy ● 1421d

Another angle on this:https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/jul/25/cryptocurrencies-could-lead-to-limitless-losses-for-uk-governmentI'm not sure whether it's more difficult to trace cash or a cryptocurreny ? It's different, cash is bulky and has a physical presence so one could hide a lot more cryptocurreny without it being so obvious but then there are the transaction trails visible through the public digital ledger that aren't there with cash, so at least a permanent record exists (assuming the whole blockchain doesn't disintegrate).Just crooked business people using different methods to defraud and perhaps governments being one step (or more) behind. Definitely time for regulations? Of course, there's always the Chinese option of trying to ban cryptocurrencies but I'm not sure that would work in a democracy - or even in China!

Michael Ixer ● 1421d

Adam. Doesn't your doctor have your mobile number? The NHS can obtain it from them to send you a text? And are you sure it was from the NHS?But I agree, Google probably has more information about us than the Government ...

Michael Ixer ● 1421d

yes it would be but we are already tracked everywhere anyway, mobiles, nectar points, internet cookies, debit&credit cards, social media, cctv, facial recognition, ANPR, oyster card, etc etc. I am actually more concerned about the potential for being tracked 24/7 via our phones, will the covid app ever be turned off or will it simply evolve? I was texted by gov/nhs yesterday and I havent downloaded the app!

Adam Tripp ● 1421d

Britcoin could enable a dramatic increase in state control of our lives.A cashless society is a surveillance society.

Alda Bruno ● 1421d

That system was 100% secure, it was set up by the authorities and they then sneakily distributed the phones lol

Matt Palmer ● 1421d

I wonder if all the local drug dealers would have to set up business accounts! with regard to bitcoin, I am sceptical that it is as anonymous as is often said, surely it is in the best interests of law enforcement to perpetuate this "myth" to give the bad guys a false sense of security. I believe there was a recent case of a supposedly secure comms system used extensively by criminals which was easily accessed by Australian and US authorities.

Adam Tripp ● 1421d

Interesting, Freddie. Although one does have to be in "the system" in the sense one has to be supported by one of the charities associated with the scheme so it may still exclude some - perhaps illegal immigrants? Still, it's progress.Jonathan, it's interesting that a number of early business adoptors of contactless seem to be the coffee chains and similar with small value but a high volume of transactions. I assume it cuts time processing cash, allows faster transactions enabling more in peak periods (or reducing staff needed?), cuts robberies and staff fraud, etc? I was interested that one of the gentmen's loos in Regent's Park now collects its 20p using contactless cards - could get messy if a group of 12 year olds playing footie visit and don't have credit cards ...More seriously, I have one friend who refuses to use contactless cards and smartphones on principle, not because he can't use them (he does have a credit card and a non smart mobile). He has proved it's faster to go to the bar than use the Wetherspoons app - though it helps that he's a regular so they let him order at the bar and the app's one of the "chunkiest" I've used, and he has to carry his own drinks 😶

Michael Ixer ● 1421d

There are moves to address that. https://www.hsbc.co.uk/togetherwethrive/no-fixed-address/?cid=HBUK:LH:P1:XX:06:2009:034:NFA_2020&gclsrc=aw.ds&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI0KW2zp3-8QIVdIFQBh0fVglYEAAYASAAEgJGT_D_BwE

Freddie Francis ● 1421d

Over a million people in this country have no bank account or credit card. Cash is their only option. Cash in circulation is still rising despite the falls in its use for shopping in part thanks to Covid. The view in the finance sector is that cash is here to stay even though we all use it less and less. Banks would love to do away with it. Storing it and transporting it is expensive. Cash machine fees (which we mostly don’t see) fail to cover costs which of course is why ATMs are getting very thin on the ground. But cash will remain despite all this - it will always be anonymous and the black economy is still pretty active.

Jonathan Callaway ● 1421d

I must admit I'd be skeptical about how private electric transactions can be made. It might come down to how expensive the forensic are compared with the value of the transaction? Bitcoin transactions have been traced - everything on the bitcoin ledger is visible it's just that much of it is obfuscated using encryption. We still don't know how the FBI managed to recover a substantial part of the Colonial Pipeline ransom. The official statement notes they reviewed the public bitcoin ledger. Ok, they'd be able to see the transaction flows through and destinations on the internet but it doesn't explain how they decrypted the bitcoin wallet. Various rumours suggest either they'd seized a device containing the key during another operation or there was an informant, or the criminals were careless with protecting their own data.If this government said your "Britcoin" transactions were untraceable would you believe them, or trust the trechnology? 🙂

Michael Ixer ● 1421d

Sounds like work is being done on figuring out how private transactions can be made"The ECB has been testing “bearer instruments” to store smaller amounts of digital euros on hardware devices so they could be used in offline transactions without needing an internet connection or the involvement of a third party.In another experiment, the central bank tested tools to detach a person’s identity from their payments using digital euros via “a decentralised ledger” — the blockchain technology behind cryptocurrencies such as bitcoin.Panetta said: “Our preliminary experimentation on a digital euro is showing promising results on how technology can be used to protect user privacy without relaxing standards against illicit activities.”

Matt Palmer ● 1421d

Given this statement in the article: "It would also be made very simple – and very fast – to transfer Britcoin back into ordinary cash that could be taken out of an ATM" my understanding of this and from what I've read elsewhere is that the Treasury/BoE are looking at the feasibility of introducing a cryptocurrency equivalent of the current pound to run in parallel with but not a replacement for it.

Michael Ixer ● 1421d

Better or worse? EVERY transaction will be recorded and of course be accessible by HMRC, which will be perfectly fine in principal and will rid us of the  ‘payment by cash’ culture that avoids taxes. Good for the tax payer, not so good for the local handyman or low paid cleaner. Beggars and fundraisers? Swings and roundabouts. They will get mobile payments via their phones. It’s happening in various places already. Tap and pay a set figure. Almost easier than cash and may well mean spontaneous payments are more frequent. Less interaction, quicker etc. But as ever there could be downsides for those at the bottom as noted in this article - https://www.businesstoday.in/latest/world/story/beggars-in-china-go-cashless-but-there-is-more-than-what-meets-the-eye-108882-2018-07-01

Freddie Francis ● 1421d

Harder for older people, I would have thought.

Barbara Stevens ● 1421d