Forum Topic

COVID TURNABOUT

At 9 a.m. Sunday the PM and Chancellor weren't going to self-isolate. At 10a.m. they both were. What happened in between? The people spoke their mind. Obviously our politicians have to be forced to listen.

Alexander MacLeod ● 1661d65 Comments

Another Huff Post article, below - England is more divided than ever by Freedom Day. I suppose the arguments on this thread suggest that it's true! Perhaps 16 months of lockdown has made us all more argumentative? (I know I sometimes like to play devil's advocate or push the limits just for the fun of it.) Perhaps the concern over masks is that we all want to get back to "normal" (whatever that is) but realise freedom has limitations and are concerned about another lockdown looming in the next month or so if things don't go according to expectations? And many of us don't trust the government, but probably for different reasons! Mike's idea of groupthink is good - it is a danger, I've seen businesses ruined by it, and I think in a situation like lockdown it is possible to become blinkered - but I'm not sure it's applicable here; some of us may agree about masks but have different, very polarised, views on Brexit v Remain or Johnson v Corbyn ... although I haven't seen many supporting Donald Trump recently 🙂 Another thought, I was on a conference this morning with presenters from all six inhabited continents: the rest of the world is waiting to see how Johnson's freedom day experiment goes ...https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/how-england-feels-about-freedom-day_uk_60f15159e4b0b2a04a229f57

Michael Ixer ● 1659d

Matt,I totally agree with you. This "Freedom Day" is nothing but a PR exercise, but a wrong one1

Ivonne Holliday ● 1659d

@JoTotally agree, people are allowed to have other opinions, otherwise the forum would be very boring.I don't want to be in lockdown and I dont want to have to wear masks but i choose to to potentially protect other people.If you choose not to that's now your right and there's nothing anyone can do about it. Enjoy that freedom while you have it because I think we all know that's there's another lockdown coming eventually. Despite Boris' pledge to 'let the bodies pile up' at some point he's going to end up bowing to the inevitable.All 'freedom day' will have achieved is more needless death and hospitalisation.

Matt Palmer ● 1659d

Well, all I can say is lovely to have some new people on the forum, so whether you wear your mask or not, you can't catch Covid on Putney forum. It's only your fingers doing the talking.

Barbara Stevens ● 1659d

Hi Jo,Welcome to  the forum, and thankyou for your kind words higher up the chain!Also nice to see others like Julie, Karl and Colin joining and putting differing points of view Well summarised.  We all read, evaluate and make judgements,  many scientists who I’m sure spend longer looking into these issues than we have differing opinions over how to deal with Covid, although of course they all tend, like we do, to experience through their own filters of perception.  To do so is human.  I’ve read massively different takes on various issues around this from various scientists, it is harder for them to be heard if their papers and conclusions do not conform to the consensus though or preferred media angle - we do have a large amount of groupthink in science currently I wonder if more now than any time in the recent past (although not so much as when science was run by the churches pre dualism and the separation of the study of the mundane from the spiritual of course - perhaps some here would be happy if it returned).  The current politicising of science is concerning to me at least where so much power over so many is influenced by so few.If people never came to different conclusions from the norm or were lynched by the mob for doing so we would probably be back pre enlightenment

Mike Warman ● 1659d

Not *you Matt.

Sue Hammond ● 1659d

Thank you Matt and a question to all of you.If the face masks are so useless, why do surgeons wear them while operating?  I very much doubt the surgeon is trying to avoid viruses from the patient.Going back to COVID and masks, I agree that they are not the comfiest of things and it is a delight when you take them off.  There again, it is incredibly uncomfortable to travel in a crowded tube and we all sigh a sigh of relief when we get off!

Ivonne Holliday ● 1659d

It's only a big deal if you want it to be Matt. Bloody snowflakes and armchair rebels. 🙄

Sue Hammond ● 1659d

Very succinctly put, Sue!

Michael Ixer ● 1659d

Social control indeed? Is Graham Brady over-thinking this, or is he a covert conspiracy theorist or simply becoming paranoid? Wearing a mask is simply placing a barrier between the wearer and any circulating airborne gems, which even in a minimal way surely must have some merit. Don't bang on about breathing in your own exhalations or masks getting dirty, just buy a decent one and wash it every night. Why do some academics and so called 'experts' always find ways of making simple things complicated? They hack me off.

Sue Hammond ● 1659d

Ha ha: "express polar ion" should have read "extrapolations". Looks like I got a phrase out of the explanation on the Northern Lights! 🙂

Michael Ixer ● 1659d

To summarise @MattP:- Opinions were offered- You asked for science related to those opinions- Scientific articles were provided for you - You evaluated some of the views presented in those articles and made your own judgement about what is acceptableOthers can do the same as you. So it's not really that big a deal if they come to a different judgement or conclusion, is it?  :-)

Jo Amadi ● 1659d

Yes it says it can be uncomfortable and a problem for people who have pre existing lung conditions.As we know, they are all exempt from wearing a mask.So what's the impact on normal healthy person? 'an uncomfortable feeling'Not really that big a deal is it?

Matt Palmer ● 1659d

I don't think anyone is saying mask wearing is pleasant?Yes, point (4), air towards the eyes isn't particularly pleasant, particularly if one wears glasses and they steam up and, yes, there is a danger of touching the eytes but isn't that why hand hygiene is important as well? (Washing and antiseptic sprays?)And (5), I don't think there's any disagreement that those with COPD and other breathing problems should be exempted, is there?Finally, doesn't (5B) just emphasises the need to regularly replace or wash masks?I wouldn't advocate wearing masks outside but in closed and crowded areas they seem to make sense and although perhaps uncomfortable worth reducing transmission. Risk mitigation needs to be proportionate so if something is only a minor inconvenience but has benefits surely it's worth doung? Unfortunately, there don't seem to be any good controlled studies into Covid and mask wearing but express polar ions from studies with other airborne viruses and some quick trials do suggest benefits. 

Michael Ixer ● 1659d

People are starting to wise up to what is going on.https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-9798365/GRAHAM-BRADY-believe-real-purpose-masks-social-control-time-stop-fear.html

William Jolly ● 1659d

I just take the view that if someone's resorting to personal insults they've lost the argument as they can't think of anything more constructive? 

Michael Ixer ● 1659d

@Matt Palmer: did you have not a look at the BMJ articles that Mike posted? Also apologies if I missed it but I don't believe Colin said 'to dangerous levels' It doesn't need to be dangerous levels to have a negative impact. Please see extract from the BMJ articles below for an example of the scientific evidence you requested: (4) Wearing a face mask makes the exhaled air go into the eyes. This generates an uncomfortable feeling and an impulse to touch your eyes.(5) Face masks make breathing more difficult. For people with COPD, face masks are in fact intolerable to wear as they worsen their breathlessness.[5] Moreover, a fraction of carbon dioxide previously exhaled is inhaled at each respiratory cycle. Those two phenomena increase breathing frequency and deepness, and hence they increase the amount of inhaled and exhaled air. This may worsen the burden of covid-19 if infected people wearing masks spread more contaminated air. This may also worsen the clinical condition of infected people if the enhanced breathing pushes the viral load down into their lungs.(5B) The effects described at point 5 are amplified if face masks are heavily contaminated (see point 2)

Jo Amadi ● 1659d

Matt if you read Mike's articles it talks about the carbon dioxide inhaling.Why do you keep posting without reading the evidence in the link Mike sent? Maybe stick to being a strawberry?

Colin Redmond ● 1659d

Perfect!  Just need a couple of apostrophes and your typing lesson was well worth the effort!It does make me wonder how people who just offer immoderate criticism expect the targets to listen to what they have to say. By all means let’s discuss the pro and cons but can’t we do it without descending to Twitter-esque levels of unpleasantness?

Jonathan Callaway ● 1659d

Still waiting for the science to back up your claim that wearing a mask increases the amount of carbon dioxide you breath to dangerous levels!Come on Colin, you must have a you tube video to share surely?

Matt Palmer ● 1659d

so no science still on why wearing a mask causes you to breathe in more carbon dioxide then? That's the point i was making.

Matt Palmer ● 1659d

Didnt think it was a lecture. Just making the point that mask wearing and remainers do not necessarily go together as you seem to assume.Hows the spelling there ??

Andy Pike ● 1659d

A paper on mask wearing. Not had time to read it but it seems to conclude the evidence is they cut transmission.https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118

Michael Ixer ● 1659d

Thanks for your insightful 1720hrs post Mike.It is such a refreshing change from the usual drivel on this forum.Being lectured by Andy who can't spell, being lectured by Matt who dresses around the local shops as a strawberry and being lectured by Michael who thinks this forum is his own personal art gallery.You will bring cheer to many watching from the sidelines.

Colin Redmond ● 1659d

I'm new to posting here but have been reading some posts over the past few months and this is by far and away the most articulate, balanced and considered post I've seen. It raises many points and perspectives. Thank you Mike for taking the time to put this together.

Jo Amadi ● 1659d

She didn't get it because she was either too thick or too selfishOr both!  Seems to apply to a few on this thread too!

Jane Carter ● 1659d

Lucky planet with all those three away disposable masks (hundreds per person now)!  Assuming they are just to landfill but even so the resources and energy going into them and the sheer level of waste produced!  - I’m surprised that so many people see no problems with using disposable masks.

Mike Warman ● 1659d

“I note Colin hasnt provided any science to back up his claims.”Here’s something from the BMJ for you to pooh poohhttps://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1435/rr-40https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1422.shortvirtually no perceived benefit to wearing outside and low but debatable inside.  Clearly the places most likely to be useful to wear are side in crowds.Of course this doesn’t agree with the prejudices of most here and I’m sure you could find similar articles saying on balance better to wear.So if you have a streaming cold and flu symptoms and can’t stay inside looks pretty sensible to wear one as a minimum.  Otherwise different opinions on effectively .  Even professor lockdown Fergusson himself suggested on Andrew Marr yesterday their main benefit was as a comfort for those worried.If you are particularly worried you could always wear an N95 mask or petition for masked only hours at the supermarkets like we had for the over 70s.However as most people (and all elderly/ vulnerable who want to be) have been double vaccinated by now it’s not reasonable to claim the same potential negative impacts from people not wearing themGreat and reasonable post from Jo above “I hope we can behave respectfully to one another from tomorrow and it doesn't become yet another divisive tool. Compassion is a two way thing. People who go maskless deserve equal respect and compassion as those who mask up.”Sadly typical intolerant responses from the forum that can’t abide by non believers in the board consensus Matt Palmer “  I don't see why I should 'have respect' for people who choose not to wear a mask? They clearly have no respect for me otherwise they wouldnt be sharing their germs so freely.”Alexander McLeod “  Your approach is rooted in selfishness, i.e. your own variety of narrow-mindedness. “Nice post by Karl Henry too.I think that there are different perspectives on everything and these obviously get taken to extreme on social media, but please all be aware that always calling people who disagree with you to be selfish thick and stupid is far more of a reflection on the name caller than vice versa.  I could easily say to Matt above why should anyone ever give any respect to his posts if he doesn’t give other people the respect to allow them to have different opinions and actions as the flip side of the way he has phrased it.Why do you think it’s reasonable for you to enforce your choice of behaviour on others when those others are saying fine you act as you like and they will act as they like.  Fine to take away their choice to make you feel safer but I assume not fine for your choice to be taken away.  Anyone can still wear masks, and in crowded situations most will I would assume.  Many view the encroachment of person liberty by the state over this pandemic as something that could have more worrying consequences in the medium term than marginal impacts on case numbers now and obviously many have the opposite view.  We don’t know the answer to that.So many young people have had to wear masks, have their education interrupted etc to help protect older people although they might have been happier to take a minor risk for themselves and did so happily, now with the elderly vaccinated they should be allowed to choose how to act and enjoy themselves a little again if they wish at their choice not at your say so.I went for a coffee and didn’t wear one while queueing (as others were not), I went to Waitrose and while in there I wore one as most people were.  If I see an elderly person walking down the street in a mask I give them a slightly wider berth as I know they might be more anxious.  I’m sure those who respect others choices above do that also.Respect is a two way street not that social media would know it.

Mike Warman ● 1659d

Agreed, Barbara, wear once then wash (or throw if it's a disposable one). 

Michael Ixer ● 1659d

You are meant to wash your masks frequently, or change the paper ones. If you had Covid, and you are wearing the same mask, you will just be breathing in your same germs. Thought that was obvious.

Barbara Stevens ● 1659d

I note Colin hasnt provided any science to back up his claims.

Matt Palmer ● 1660d

I agree with Andy!  When he talks about masks not Brexit, obviously.Andy, did you ever think of taking a typing course?  Fat fxingerts is one thing, typing in code is quite another!

Jonathan Callaway ● 1660d

Agree, Sue and Matt. And I don't understand the comments about carbon dioxide. Unlike carbon monoxide it isn't poisonous, and in fact too much oxygen can be detrimental. So I don't think breathing a little of one's own CO2 would be harmful - I don't think there's any recorded cases of a mask wearer suffocating themselves, is there? Fair, though, that those with breathing problems, etc have exemptions.Of course carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases in the atmosphere is different as recent events in Europe and the west coast of North America indicate. Have they stopped teaching science in schools 🙂?

Michael Ixer ● 1660d

@Andy"She didnt quite get it when I said one of my freedoms was to choose to wear a mask and to have the vaccination."She didn't get it because she was either too thick or too selfish. It is everybody's responsibility to protect ourselves and each other from catching the virus and passing it on. We know that masks are not 💯effective but at least they help to reduce transmission if worn correctly i.e. not pulled right down with most of it under the chin, or being whipped off or fiddled with every 2 minutes.🙄 As Matt says, 'what's the big deal'?

Sue Hammond ● 1660d

well lets hope you're not one of the 1 in 95 people in the country who's currently infected eh? Honestly I just dont get it, what's the big deal with wearing a mask indoors?? what's the worst that can happen?

Matt Palmer ● 1660d

Agree with you about choice Andy and someone telling you to take it off is as daft as someone telling you to wear it when not mandatory. All about choice. I did pop to one of the larger stores towards the north end of the High Street and it was about 50/50 which seems about right - I personally didn't wear one but everyone there was doing what they felt comfortable doing which I think is the way forward.

Karl Henry ● 1660d

That is a very good article Michael. Thank you!

Ivonne Holliday ● 1660d

An interesting comment from across the pond but I would think it equally applies here after "freedom day" - you're free to get jabbed or get the delta variant ...https://www.huffpost.com/entry/fda-scott-gottlieb-delta-variant-covid-unvaccinated_n_60f49edee4b00ef8761d99c3

Michael Ixer ● 1660d

Apologies Jo it was Julie Gent who misinterpreted my post.

Andy Pike ● 1660d

don't know what you are on about here. misinterpreting your post? what? where? maybe you have me mistaken with another commenter

Jo Amadi ● 1660d

Good to note this morning whilst taking a friend shopping in Savacentre the vast majority of folk still wore their masks in store. I'd say about 95%.,Personally I dont object to those that dont  what I did object to was an anti masher and Vaxer telling me to take my mask off as it was freedom day. She didnt quite get it when I said one of my freedoms was to choose to wear a mask and to have the vaccination.

Andy Pike ● 1660d

Jo.can I forget any apology from you for misinterpreting my post yesterday ?

Andy Pike ● 1660d

What's a white privilege brexit voter? I'm just a bloke who voted for brexit. Nothing to do with mine or anyone ekses colour and I've certainly not led a privileged life  but I gave worked hard.If like me you had lived in shepherds bush/ notting hill in the 50s and 60s you would not consider yourself privileged in any way

Andy Pike ● 1660d

Jo Amadi: We're obviously living on different planets. Yes, transmission in the outdoors is reduced, but on the planet I live on it is not eliminated, or so the scientists tell me.  As for vitriol, that's  your department.

Alexander MacLeod ● 1660d

Is there actually any science to show that it's dangerous to your health to wear a mask?

Matt Palmer ● 1660d

Andy why did you vote for Brexit?I have read your comments before and you often come across as a white privilege Brexit voter.

Ade Abiola ● 1660d

We breathe in oxygen and breathe out carbon dioxide.If you have a mask on you will breathe back in some of the carbon dioxide that hasn't escaped.I thought a strawberry wearing XR activist would know all about the dangers of carbon dioxide lol

Colin Redmond ● 1660d

The last comment about thumb sucking and comfort blanket should have been directed at the virtue signaller Alexander.How refreshing to see people walking around freely without masks having been double jabbed.The economy needs to be reopened for those that want to live their lives. Those that want to continue isolating at home and wearing their masks you carry on how you see fit.We were told by the government last December after being double jabbed life can get back to normal so lets do so.

Julie Gent ● 1660d

Alexander Macleod: After 14+ months of Covid you should be aware that 'walking the streets maskless' has always been OK. Streets are outside and you will be aware of the incontrovertible fact that virus transmission outdoors is greatly reduced. I wish for you that your level of hate and vitriol can also be similarly reduced.

Jo Amadi ● 1660d

lol, why would i wear a mask in a car on my own? I wear one inside to protect other people from my germs.As for the carbon dioxide comment, what are you on about?

Matt Palmer ● 1660d

The same Matt Palmer that goes around disrupting peoples daily lives dressed up as a strawberry?Who honestly takes your views seriously.I often see the odd person in their own car on their own with their mask on and really wonder what they are thinking.In your case Matt I guess you are one of these, so I'm intrigued to know, does wearing a mask in your own car feel like a comfort blanket or a nice feeling like a child sucking it's thumb?  I prefer not to inhale my own carbon dioxide and my own mucus whenever possible when I'm on my own, but I guess that is a selfish act. You carry on though Matt as you see fit you selfless man who always puts everyone else first!

James Dawson ● 1660d

Jo Amadi: After 14+ months of Covid you should be aware of incontrovertible facts. If you wear a mask you reduce the likelihood of passing the virus on to someone else. That is called social responsibility. Your approach is rooted in selfishness, i.e. your own variety of narrow-mindedness. Some have valid health reasons for eschewing masks, but by walking the streets maskless you will endanger others.

Alexander MacLeod ● 1660d

I didnt say i'm going to be verbally disrespectful... i'll just quietly rage inside my own head.

Matt Palmer ● 1660d

You don't know someone's reason for not wearing a mask so are you going to be disrespectful to everyone without a mask because you have made a judgement that they don't have respect for you? Seems a little narrow minded to me.

Jo Amadi ● 1660d

Apart from people like Andy's daughter in law who have good reason I don't see why I should 'have respect' for people who choose not to wear a mask? They clearly have no respect for me otherwise they wouldnt be sharing their germs so freely.

Matt Palmer ● 1660d

I am sneering at no one. Just saying that I will wear a mask and I voted for brexit. My post was not in response to Jo. It was in response to the earlier one that suggested mask weares were remainers.Having a daughter in law who is exempt from mask wearing makes me acutely aware that there are those who cannot wear them. Though fair play to her she does try when out shopping.

Andy Pike ● 1660d

Great post Jo.It works both ways.There will be a few ignorant people like Andy that sneer at others for not wearing a mask even though they may not be wearing one for medical reasons.

Julie Gent ● 1660d

I voted to Leave and I will continue to wear a mask, as will my family.

Martine Guy ● 1660d

What a nonsense post.I will wear a mask because I respect the righf of others not to catch any germs I may unwittkinly spread.I did not vote remain.

Andy Pike ● 1660d

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-9798365/GRAHAM-BRADY-believe-real-purpose-masks-social-control-time-stop-fear.html

Colin Redmond ● 1660d

I heard (although didn't see it myself) that there was a Twitter storm with people saying they were going to delete the Covid-19 app from their phones if the rules didn't apply to Johnson and Sunak. To be honest I think the app is pretty useless as unless you check into another venue it leaves you checked into the last venue you visited until midnight ... So if you check into a restaurant for lunch at midday and then goes home it thinks you're in the restaurant for 12 hours. Designed by a geek who never leaves their bedroom?

Michael Ixer ● 1660d

I hope we can behave respectfully to one another from tomorrow and it doesn't become yet another divisive tool. Compassion is a two way thing. People who go maskless deserve equal respect and compassion as those who mask up.

Jo Amadi ● 1660d

As the medical advice still seems to be to wear masks in crowded indoor places then that's an inference that sensible people wear masks and sensible people voted to remain? 🙂

Michael Ixer ● 1660d

Tomorrow morning masks become optional.They will simply become a badge saying "I voted remain"

Colin Redmond ● 1660d

I could not believe it this morning when I heard they would not isolate.  "Rules apply to them but not us" situation?After Andrew Marr's programme I heard they would.I do not know what happened in between but the outcry must have been quite considerable! I doubt it it came from Cabinet Members.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1661d