Forum Topic

Wales to run a Universal Basic Income trial

It's not a ne thing but keeps on being revisited.  With our changing work markets it is here again:https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/may/14/wales-to-launch-universal-basic-income-pilot-scheme

Philippa Bond ● 1783d26 Comments

It's cheaper to to give a payment to everyone than to employ people to keep on checking when people came in and out of the country.  It's not like its an all year round payment (well, not at the moment).

Philippa Bond ● 1777d

https://braveneweurope.com/anna-coote-why-were-backing-universal-basic-services-ubs

Philippa Bond ● 1777d

You receive you weather payment when you are about to take your Pension. Obviously now the age has gone up to 66yrs then people wait till then. Just like free prescriptions. I nearly past out when they told me I didn't need to pay anymore, which has been a while now as you could get your Pensions at 60. I didn't take my Pension for a couple of years because I was working and deferred it. But you still got free prescriptions and weather payments.

Barbara Stevens ● 1778d

Yes of course. Only you don't need to be taking your pension to be eligible for the cold weather payment or you certainly didn't.  I haven't looked at it recently.  There are very few benefits which are not means tested but apparently there are an awful lot of people who do not claim the benefits that they are entitled to - partly because the amount of paperwork is beyond them (or beyond them once they need the benefits).

Philippa Bond ● 1778d

Philippa,You do not need a UK bank account, if you have moved overseas the HMRC's International Pension Service will arrange appropriate payments to local bank accounts.

Ed Robinson ● 1779d

https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/public-and-social-sector/our-insights/an-experiment-to-inform-universal-basic-income

Philippa Bond ● 1779d

I think I remember that anybody living overseas without a UK address just pre Brexit was getting letters from their UK bank/s with a view to closing those UK accounts.  Anybody remember?

Philippa Bond ● 1779d

Michael  & Barbara,Yes I agree. The HMRC probably do some sample checks I assume.If you look at the link I have included you can see a decline in applications from those excluded EU countries.I should make clear that the EU countries were excluded due to their average temperatures. People moving to other cold, wet windy countries are still eligible I believe.That said the benefits of Spain's weather on old bones can not be overstated. People tend also to be more active and enjoy the outdoors more. A win win if it also helps tge Spanish economy.

Ed Robinson ● 1780d

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/31/finland-universal-basic-income

Philippa Bond ● 1780d

My guess is if one's registered for it, and you have a UK address and bank account then it gets paid irrespective of where one is living on those dates unless the DWP is notified otherwise by the recipient?

Michael Ixer ● 1781d

Coming back to the topic which we seem to be getting away from the topic due to misinformation or misunderstanding. The challenges are how do you regenerate an areas in Wales that may consist of remote villages that have lost not only traditional employment but a large number of their services such as banks, postoffices even shops.I think most people would agree we do not want everyone to migrate to the cities leaving deserted ghost villages. Spain has many such examples.Infrastructure is obviously needed as well as retraining. One of the faults of tge benefit system is it doesn't leave capital for people to take risks for obvious reasons. Advice on creating small businesses and cooperatives is also needed. Now you could say the banks may provide capital for these but that doesn't seem to be the feedback from SME that are established and want to grow.The results of such trials must be measured by a wide range of metrics and not just by an individuals net gain, as the goal is to improve the social and economic situation of the area for the current and future generations.

Ed Robinson ● 1781d

Ed, don't mean to argue on this, but how do they know you have been here on those dates. You just get a letter saying you will be receiving the payment in a few weeks. It goes into your Bank Account. My letter even said if you haven't received by 23rd January 2021, to let them know. But did receive before Christmas.

Barbara Stevens ● 1781d

Definately 1st criteria applies.Not 2nd (covid keeps them in Spain).

Simon Knight ● 1781d

Simon the benefit is based on where you live during the qualifying week:EligibilityYou qualify for a Winter Fuel Payment if both the following apply:you were born on or before 5 October 1954you lived in the UK for at least one day during the week of 21 to 27 September 2020 - this is called the ‘qualifying week’

Ed Robinson ● 1781d

They probably still get it because they keep a pied a terre over here.

Simon Knight ● 1781d

"From winter 2015/16 a change to the WFP entitlementconditions means that the WFP is no longer payable topeople living in Cyprus, France, Gibraltar, Greece, Malta,Portugal or Spain. This has resulted in a marked reductionin the numbers of payments made and the expenditurefrom winter 2015/16 continuing in 2018/19."https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/837697/winter-fuel-payment-statistics-winter-2018-to-2019.pdf

Ed Robinson ● 1781d

Now according to HMRC Spain is excluded from the winter fuel payments."you live in Switzerland or a European Economic Area (EEA) country (except for Cyprus, France, Gibraltar, Greece, Malta, Portugal or Spain)"https://www.gov.uk/claim-benefits-abroad/winter-fuel-paymentsWinter Fuel Allowance a different take:Current value is between £100 and £300.Brought in 1997, I believe one of the original aims was to bring down winter mortality, hence it is not means tested as that deters some especially the elderly from claiming.Now we must remember that VAT has since been added on to  energy bills, 5% I believe. The average energy bill in 2020 was £1,287 per year. So straight away that is £61 VAT. Of course for big properties and those that feel the cold more that may be higher.

Ed Robinson ● 1781d

For all I know they may well do, but it's hardly the point.

Simon Knight ● 1782d

If your friends don't need the money they could give it to charity, Simon ...

Michael Ixer ● 1782d

https://nudj.app/event/755https://transition-bounceforward.org/

Philippa Bond ● 1782d

As with all these schemes we need some flesh around the bones:Who getsHow muchWhenWhyFor how longCost to exchequer...list goes on.I'm with Freddie, sooner people who really need sorted first.Have friends living in Spain...weathy friends who still get annual heating allowance from UK Gov...maddness!

Simon Knight ● 1782d

Freddie, the idea is attractive but needs to be part of wider societal changes. I remember back in the early 70s discussing a similar concept with a university flat mate. Wewere looking at a scenario where automation meant most people were unemployed and apart from a few running and supporting the essential automation services everyone else had to be paid to carry out leisure activities 🙂

Michael Ixer ● 1782d

I’m supportive of the concept but it’s a can of worms, for obvious reasons.

Freddie Francis ● 1783d

As the article says it's just a pilot and welfare is not a devolved power. Hence it requires support of the UK government. I may be wrong but I can't were the current government supporting UBI ...

Michael Ixer ● 1783d

Freddie it looks like this is very early stages. I assume it's going to be a fairly small area and a relatively small number of people and budget."Researchers in Finland found the scheme left those who received the payments happier and less stressed." Who would have thought:)It may be an interesting alternative to QE.

Ed Robinson ● 1783d

“Under a UBI system, every citizen, regardless of their means, receives regular sums of money for life to cover the basic cost of living.”So how many are going to get this cash even when they have absolutely no need? It’s stupidity. Spend the unneeded cash on care for the elderly if they insist on giving it away.

Freddie Francis ● 1783d