Forum Topic

Being British

We live in the best country in the world. We have had the most divisive argument on EU membership & there was no violence. Constitutional change done properly. We agreed to take the vaccine, no problem. We agreed to lockdown, no problem. We do our duty willingly. A war on a virus and we all rally round. We can compare ourselves to the blitz generation. It make me immensely proud that we are still the people we always were.

Paul Rolink ● 1809d37 Comments

"now i'm off to bash some pans"Well that'll be a welcome change from blocking roads and being a general nuisance with XR.😉

Sue Hammond ● 1805d

I didnt think i'd need to state the obvious fact that growth was down due to the pandemic...now i'm off to bash some pans

Matt Palmer ● 1805d

Hello Andy,Excuse me for butting in.  Yes, 2020 was the horrific year of the pandemic when the economy nose dived.But it is also true that that is exactly the comparison the economists and politicians are doing.  The UK will have an enormous growth in 2021.... compared to 2020.In realistic terms, the UK cannot have an incredible growth compared to 2018 say, just because it does not have the means to do it.  But it most certainly can have an incredible growth compared to a year the economy contracted substantially.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1805d

Sue, I'd agree that all these predictions are "guestmates", as are all economic predictions; there are too many variables and future unknowns to predict anything for certain. Short term, provided we can make a controlled exit from pandemic restrictions during the next 6-9 months, it would seem reasonable to anticipate a steep recovery as people try to regain social lives, gain new employment, spend money they've saved during lockdowns and new businesses in entertainment, etc rise from the wreckage of old ones.Long term it's less clear: some areas are hampered by Brexit - such as the music business with new hurdles in setting up tours or just travelling for one off performances, SMEs struggling to come to grips with extra bureaucracy in exporting to their old EU customer base, financial services who can no longer operate in the EU to name a few - some will find ways around this but this may not be to Britain's advantage: Sir Simon Rattle has taken German citizenship and moved to Berlin, many small businesses are setting up EU distribution centres but that's normally to the advantage of EU employment with a corresponding reduction in UK employees.Many businesses will find alternative markets but that depends how good, for example, US, Australian, etc trade deals are and when (and if) they are completed; not a quick wins, and there may still be a financial services equivalence deal with the EU; - again, probably not a quick win if we keep putting random EU citizens in detention centres if a home office official is unclear about their paperwork!Other uncertainties are Scottish independence and Irish unity; the DUP being headed by a creationist, even if he's not going to be First Minister, doesn't seem like progress. Also, if the EU economy tanks that's possibly not good for the UK; they are our closest neighbour so possibly not good for the UK's tourist and luxury food exports? But we do have great opportunities in science and technology; satellites (OneWeb might not be the "turkey" some predicted), biotech (our vaccine and genome technology has rescued he UK from initially botched lockdowns and test & trace systems) and quantum 2.0 has a host of possibilities tn strong encryption, faster computing, serveellance systems, etc; plus there's plenty of opportunities in renewables and other remedies for climate change, provided the government isn't just "green washing".Are we looking at Greast Britain or Liitle England? I think it's too soon to tell; I wouldn't like to predict!

Michael Ixer ● 1805d

10% decline in 2020Err wasnt that the year of the pandemic,?Nice try though Matt.I bet your pan bashers wouldnt accept reduction in green house gases in 2020 without pointing out the pandemic.

Andy Pike ● 1805d

But surely that's the same for all global economies Matt, the important fact is that the GB forecast is good. Better than (whispers) than most in the EU ...?

Sue Hammond ● 1806d

well as i'm sure you're aware the only reason why the growth differential is so high is because of the growth collapse last year. In fact it's even stated in that article"However, it follows a collapse of almost 10% in 2020, the worst decline for more than three centuries."

Matt Palmer ● 1806d

Matt, I have little faith in economists so perhaps the BoE is wrong? Plus The Guardian for reporting it? 🙀UK set for strongest economic growth since WWII, forecasts Bank of England | Bank of England | The Guardianhttps://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/may/06/uk-braces-for-strongest-economic-growth-since-wwii-forecasts-bank-of-england

Sue Hammond ● 1806d

It could be, Matt.  History teaches us that the almighties fall in extraordinary circumstances.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1806d

The Resolution Foundation, a bunch of economists playing a guessing game, just like all the other economists lol.  Yes Matt, it is Great Britain.

Sue Hammond ● 1806d

The UK economy could see Italy-style stagnation within the next decade.The Resolution Foundation said that Britain’s economic outlook could resemble Italy more closely than Europe’s powerhouse Germany if it does not rise to the challenges it faces.“If the UK’s pace of underperformance relative to Germany continues at the same pace in the 2020s, then it will end this decade with GDP per capita much closer to that of Italy than Germany,” it said."great" Britain.

Matt Palmer ● 1806d

Actually I think that's a great riposte...let's leave it there.

Simon Knight ● 1808d

It does need to be cross party.  They have cross party committees at the HOC and you may be able to find something out about them. I think that Age UK often submit reports to them.

Philippa Bond ● 1808d

I agree, Ed, this is something so important, I think it needs cross party agreement.  It needs to be aired in public and dealt with by families, charities, carehome staff and politicians.  I didn’t disagree with the proposal to run down savings to about £120,000 (?) to pay for care, at least it got people talking about the problem, instead of being repeatedly ignored.

Martine Guy ● 1808d

Martine,I can't see social care moving forward without cross party consensus. Labour did have policies but I'm not sure where they are now. Politically I assume noone wants to take the risk Tereasa May made.The politics need to be set aside. But even if there was cross party agreement at committee level would any of them implement it?

Ed Robinson ● 1808d

"Methinks"First time for everything!

Ed Robinson ● 1808d

I wouldn't disagree that the care system is far from ideal and that some homes fall short of what is to be expected. I was just noting in response to Ed's post that a good care home might often be better than attempting to care for a relative at home. Obviously there's a number of factors to consider: the level of nursing and care required by a relative, the commitments of potential carers, and their skills and temperament in caring, the wishes of the person being cared for(if they're capable of expressing them), the financial circumstances and commitments of all parties involved - and agreement between relations ...

Michael Ixer ● 1808d

Churchill is dead so who knows.Seem to have hit a raw nerve with my "champagne socialist" comment!Methinks you're one.

Simon Knight ● 1808d

"You're muddying the waters Ed."Says the person throwing around terms like "champagne socialist" when a Conservative government has just paid a large percentage of the workforce, including high earners to stay at home!I wonder what Churchill would have made of that?

Ed Robinson ● 1808d

Simon, without the guidance of the NHS and the MHRA the government would have done the same horror and mess as with the PPE.It is all down to the NHS and the MHRA.  But of course, BoJo is taking the credit...

Ivonne Holliday ● 1808d

You're muddying the waters Ed.Neither you nor me know what would happen given circumstances you spoke about. As you said "we would hope there be calm and not panic but we can't say because it didn't happen".I agree totally with your first sentence!!

Simon Knight ● 1809d

I see that Australia is having the same problems with care homes there.Marketing is a lot of the problem - they sell something that they may aspire to but may not provide.  The much-loved daily shower despite the ensuite never happened in the three weeks respite.  It is to do with cost.  They do not have enough staff - there is not a great enough staff:'inmate'ratio.  The elderly take a lot longer to do things - so to get everyone to breakfast on time with the number of staff that they have they take them by wheelchair - even if you've never used one - and that is an easy way to lose more mobility.The problem with communication with the outside is very large.  It's lovely having visitors (that also allows the staff more time) but if you need to keep in contact with technology and haven't kept up to date with it - that's a problem.

Philippa Bond ● 1809d

The only shortages in the shops were due to panic buying and even then the supermarkets worked hard to make everything available.To compare real shortages over a period of years with a couple of days of empty shelves of some items (which would have been considered luxury items) is beyond words!What would have happened if there had been real shortages over a long period? We would hope there be calm and not panic but we can't say because it didn't happen!Now you think that would be a positive!

Ed Robinson ● 1809d

I see the government avoided the difficult problem of adult social care again this week, nobody wants to tackle it.  Re: appropriate professionally managed accommodation and care with specialist facilities, I’d like to see it ensured that all homes carry out the basics, eg appropriate bedding, not losing dentures, getting people out of bed for a little exercise and most of all, checking people get something to eat.  Casual neglect is what it’s called.

Martine Guy ● 1809d

Ivonne, of course the physical roll-out is down the the NHS but without the Govs procurement it wouldn't have happened in the first place. Hate the government by all means but in this instance credit where it's due...who knows they may have saved your life!

Simon Knight ● 1809d

No Ed, "some" people were fighting over loo roll. Same kind of people who probably fought over a spare ration coupon up for grabs. Such people have existed through history.

Simon Knight ● 1809d

"Can we compare ourselves to WW1/2 people? I think so because we Keep Calm and Carry on."Seriously?? Rationing continued well into the 50's. People were fighting over loo roll!Just no sense of proportionality!

Ed Robinson ● 1809d

As I've said elsewhere, I'm not sure how helpful comparisons with past events are. However, if we have to compare the current Covid pandemic with any event isn't it more realistic to consider it againd the 'Spanish Flu' epidemic rather than WWI or WWII {which killed my paternal grandparents)? We have the knowledge and skills -and finance - now to better reduce, prevent and monitor the spread of the current disease and alleviate its effects than in 1919: the UK's vaccine development and application, and genomics analytics and tracking programme have certainly been world class thanks to our scientific, mathematical modelling and medical knowledge; sadly, our lockdowns, quarantining, and initial test,, track and trace systems have proved less effective than those elsewhere; for example, Australia, New Zealand and South Korea. I guess you win some and lose some?

Michael Ixer ● 1809d

Ed. You raise some interesting points there. I think there are dangers in making comparisons with previous generations and times unless it's to measure changes. In the UK we don't generally live in multi-generational and multi-family households anymore. Other posts on ageism, etc have noted directly or indicated indirectly how our lives and environment have become more complex, independent, individualistic and focused on specialisms while at the same time dependent on realtime, remote communications. Before the NHS many of our parents and grand parents' families would have avoided doctors unless absolutely unavoidable and relied as far as possible on self medication with perhaps advice from chemists because of the costs involved. I've discussed the issue of relatives in care homes versus home care with a friend of a similar age. Aside from practicalities such as having sufficient room, facilities and time we agreed that the thought of us looking after them would probably have proved more frightening to our mothers than being in a good home given our empathy skills and temperaments! They'd rather we used our skills and knowledge to find appropriate, professionally managed accommodation and care with specialist facilities.Obviously, care by relatives works well and is appropriate for some but we wondered how many older people might have had longer, happier lives if they were professionally cared for rather than looked after by family members forced into doing it for financial reasons? Interestingly, I had similar conversation with the person at Thurrock Council assessing my mother's finances who agreed it was better for my mother to be in a home near where friends and relatives could visit and she had 24x7 medical and care attention by those with the training and skills. (She'd had to make a similar decision for her mother.) My mother seemed happy with the arrangement as she once, when searching for words, referred to her care home as a hotel while we were in conversation with another resident - that pleased the staff!

Michael Ixer ● 1809d

Yes Ed, they did pay the highest price, not having visitor's was dreadful, I can't understand why when most of the carer's went home and took the virus back into the home with them. They could have arranged computer link to their relations so they could talk to them live. But they might have done I don't know.

Barbara Stevens ● 1809d

I totally and wholeheartedly agree with Ed.  The war generation was remarkable and taught us a lot.  Pity that many decided not to learn.Simon, the roll-out of the vaccine is not thanks to the government.  It is thanks to the NHS and MHRA who were the true responsible people for doing so.  Our congratulations and admiration to them all.The government was successful in procuring the ingredients for the vaccine as well as other vaccines.  That is not disputed.  But, the ones who guided the government throughout were the NHS and MHRA.  The government celebrated the procurement thanks to "capitalism and greed".  I have no problem with the former but certainly disapprove of the latter.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1809d

I'm with Paul. I think that with the vaccine roll-out authorised by Boris' government we are in a pretty good shape compared to our continental friends who still have death rates in the 100s. So yes, actually a pat on the back and a well done to Boris and Co.Post Brexit I haven't seen steep price increases in shops and neither can I suddenly not buy French cheese, Spanish wine or Italian salami etc etc...Can we compare ourselves to WW1/2 people? I think so because we Keep Calm and Carry on.Too many champange socialists nay sayers on this forum for my taste.

Simon Knight ● 1809d

Putting aside all the wonderful things that the war generation gave to us as they truly built back better: NHS including eyes and teeth, afforbable housing, education, social care...that we now take for granted. One of the big differences would be multiple generation in the one household, and multiple families in the house. They looked after their elderly themselves. I for one can not say the same and would certainly not want to meet eye to eye with those from the past that had far less but cared far more.Let us not forget that in this pandemic it was the elderly that paid the highest price during the first wave. As many were moved out of hospitals to care homes to make way for younger patients. Many of were known to have covid.I wouldn't like to explain to that generation either, how some of those elderly that survived that first wave were banned from having visitors and said their goodbyes via an ipad.Best to take Paul's post as a piece or satire.Have to go is that a V2 rocket? No just Amazon or Ocado!Thank you blitz generation, I think most of us (including me) wouldn't manage the day to day never mind the bombs and telegrams. Let's not big ourselves by falsely using past generations as a foot step!

Ed Robinson ● 1809d

Apart from the weather it must be, because everybody wants to come here, or did. Now with all the rules and regulations and restrictions coming into force in the area around London, it will turn into a muggers paradise. Young ladies will not be safe walking the streets if they haven't got a car at night. Don't tell me this will be sorted, because I don't believe it. The Government is only worried about themselves and making money, they don't care about anybody else. They did very well in organizing the vaccines, but as for seeing a doctor for anything else at a Surgery is near impossible. As for the war and rationing people got on with it, or were evacuated to the countryside. As my cousin said, she was evacuated to Somerset and the lady who took her in was a right old bag, all she wanted was her mum. My cousin is 88 now and she obviously still thinks about it. Yes we get on with it because we know we have too. We don't all want to chain ourselves to railings or bare our breasts. So does the Government really listen to anybody or only themselves.

Barbara Stevens ● 1809d

Plastic Patriots?That's a new one on me.😁😁

Andy Pike ● 1809d

Whilst some of us have undergone considerable hardship during the pandemic, there is simply no comparison to the Blitz, to being bombed, or being in a real war. I have nothing against (non-extreme) patriotism or nationalism - indeed am proudly British myself. However, I do not have a great deal of time for plastic patriots who drone on about WW2, or even WW1, something of which they have little knowledge and little experience, comparing their minor struggles to the extreme sacrifices made by those previous generations.What on earth is "we agreed to take the vaccine" supposed to mean? I took mine because it improved the outlook for my health - no sacrifice involved - just pure self-interest. I agree to eat each day for similar reasons.There are a significant number of our fellow countrymen/women opposed to the vaccines and quite a few happy to go on regular demos where they protest against vaccination and a whole range of other public health measures. They are total nutters (just like the Reform Party and rump UKIP), but they too are British.NB Jo Cox paid with her life. No violence my backside.

Michael Winstanley ● 1809d

Probably not the link you were looking for Paul but your post made me think of this advert:https://youtu.be/FS1DDn2eklU

Ed Robinson ● 1809d