Forum Topic

Sadiq  Khan reelection 😩

What a Tragedy for London.He is bringing it down to a Horse & Cart Capital City! Not a Thriving Metropolis! ULEZ is the last Straw, hitting hard working People , by forcing them to buy replacement Vehicles when theirs could only be Six years old!

Vic Condon ● 1788d68 Comments

As others have said, let's move on now Barbara.

Caroline Whitehead ● 1787d

Who are the upstarts?

Jane Carter ● 1787d

Presumably you are referring to postal votes. Is it a few, a dozen, hundreds or thousands?

Andy Pike ● 1787d

But there are still the people who never received any voting papers in the first place. As for being behind the times we obviously new what we were doing in the old day's. All these up starts who don't have a clue. Now look at the shambles it has caused.

Barbara Stevens ● 1787d

But there are still the people who never received any voting papers in the first place. As for being behind the times we obviously new what we were doing in the old day's. All these up starts who don't have a clue. Now look at the shambles it has caused.

Barbara Stevens ● 1787d

There is an image here of the ballot paper:https://www.standard.co.uk/news/mayor/mayor-london-winner-three-days-after-election-2021-b932135.htmlBailey would have picked up a few votes from bing alphabetically first on the list.Some Bailey voters are obviously disappointed but Khan is nearer Johnson on the political spectrum than Wolfie Citizen Smith.

Ed Robinson ● 1787d

Exactly. Lets move on.

Andy Pike ● 1787d

Agreed, Matt, the instructions seem pretty straightforward. It even says you must make a first choice for your vote to be counted and it says your votes must be for different candidates; so it doesn't say you must have a second choice. The only uncertainty is what happens if your first and second choice is the same. The sensible thing would be to take the first preference and ignore the second preference rather than discount the ballot paper completely?

Michael Ixer ● 1787d

If you voted both 1st and 2nd choice for the same candidate then the second choice wouldn't have mattered as either:-a) Your first choice was for either Khan or Bailey, in which case the second choice would not need to be considered.b) Your first choice was not for Khan or Bailey, in which case the second choice wouldn't be either, and so it would have been discarded in the second round of counting as they were only counting votes for the two leaders in the second round.The problem ballots were the ones that had two (or more) first choices selected. There were 87,214 of these this year, not enough to affect the final result as Khan's majority (even in the first round of voting) was over 100,000 and his eventual majority was over 220,000.

John Kettlekey ● 1787d

You miss the point I was making Matt. It did not say whether it was mandatory (or not ) to choose two different candidates for first and second choices.

Sue Hammond ● 1787d

No problem, Ed. Just thought I should clarify my thoughts.

Michael Ixer ● 1787d

Sorry Michael I didn't mean to imply you were in favour of photo Id. The comment was regarding the government's proposal.

Ed Robinson ● 1787d

"We will never know if the result would have been different..."As I said before, we absolutely know that it couldn't have affected the result as the number of rejected ballots was less than Khan's majority.

John Kettlekey ● 1787d

It literally said in massive letters at the top of the ballot paper, I don't know how much clearer it could have been made.Vote once [X] in column A for your first choice, and Vote once [X] in column B for your second choice.you can see an example at the link belowhttps://www.londonelects.org.uk/im-voter/how-complete-your-ballot-papers

Matt Palmer ● 1787d

"I did consider making Bailey my 1st and 2nd.."I wonder if the candidates used the second choice. Perhaps they put first and second for themselves too :)

Ed Robinson ● 1787d

Well it certainly wasn't made obvious one way or the other Andy.  I did consider making Bailey my 1st and 2nd choice but thought that might invalidate the paper.  I wonder if many people voted for their chosen candidate in that way and inadvertently invalidated their vote?

Sue Hammond ● 1787d

Ed. I'm not advocating Photo ID, I suppose I'm ambivalent regarding it. It's interesting that I needed photo ID to collect a replacement postal vote from Wandsworth Council plus one needs photo ID to open a bank account, engage a solicitor for property transactions, to start (most) jobs, get into the BT Tower and Gherkin, etc. (Sometimes I've been asked for two forms of photo ID in banks.) It does raise the question of whether it's an infringement of someone's rights to remove a driving licence without replacing it with a "non driving" driving licences, which I believe one can have in the US?I think if one had to carry ID by law (as in France) it could be seen as reasonable, bringing it in without providing a free ID option (at least for people on benefits, pensions, etc) is just voter suppression

Michael Ixer ● 1787d

I don't know what the objection to having preference voting is, other than by the terminally stupid (and, to be clear, I do not include Sue in that!). It allows you to say, for example, that you'd prefer candidate X but if s/he isn't successful, you'll accept candidate Y. And as others have pointed out, it's a system that's widely adopted elsewhere instead of our FPTP system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preferential_voting

Richard Carter ● 1787d

The 2nd choice was not compulsory as far as I know.

Andy Pike ● 1787d

@John KettlekeyNothing to do with imperialist views.🙄I chose one candidate and that was the person I voted for, I didn't need a second choice. Where should it stop? Chuck in a third and fourth choice for good measure? How ridiculous would that be?We will never know if the result would have been different because we don't know why the unassigned ballot papers were deemed to be invalid. Mine may have been one of them because I only put my X against one name, my only choice, Shaun Bailey.

Sue Hammond ● 1787d

Maxine I do not think that we have seen the last of Count Binface. I'm sure some of his policies will get adopted - I would personally like to see the sensibly priced croissant extended to include almond croissants :)Michael the photo Id is quite controversial as ID cards were rejected by the UK some time ago. A provisional drivers licence costs £43 (£34 online). I believe Norway requires photo Id to vote but that is probably the price of a croissant and coffee there :)In a democracy we need to make sure as much as possible that every vote counts irrespective of views. This measure will undoubtedly exclude some.On the subject of Tooting or Manhattan - IMO all citizens should be entitled to hold any office of state. I believe there are still some that are barred on religious grounds - so still some way to go!

Ed Robinson ● 1787d

More progressive nations use these types of voting systems, we're a bit behind the times and seemingly stuck in the "Britannia rules the waves!" imperialist-can't-be-wrong mentality.On the Mayoral election, if you assign all of the ballots that were rejected (due to being filled in incorrectly) to Shaun Bailey then Sadiq Khan would still have won, so it didn't have any meaningful effect on the outcome.

John Kettlekey ● 1787d

Why have a second choice anyway? Seems pointless to me.

Sue Hammond ● 1787d

It is called 1st and 2nd preferences.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1787d

Well Matt, seems thousands need to take an aptitude test. Why would you vote for 2 mayors.Why have one box next to the other.

Barbara Stevens ● 1787d

am just sad binface lost

Maxine Campbell ● 1787d

Agreed Andy and Matt. Of course the problem with FPTP systems and refererendums is that they are decisive and lead to extremisn and resentment. PR systems provide fairer representation, coalitions that require engagement, discussion and compromise that produce policies acceptable to a broader range of the population. I didn't like leaving the EU, Barbara gets ULEZ. However, I wouldn't criticise the execution of the actual referendum voting and the count, just what came before the day ...

Michael Ixer ● 1787d

Very well said, Andy

Jane Carter ● 1787d

Andy, I haven't checked back on previous London elections but the number of rejected ballot papers does seem to be raising some concern:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-57049779It would seem an indictment of the education system if people couldn't read and follow the instructions, or was it just carelessness in rushing to got and not checking?As Ed suggests perhaps we could adopt the Chinese system, no room for error then?I noticed a Facebook post suggestion not only would the Mayoral elections be moving to FPTP system but the legislation might also require photo ID when voting in future. (I haven't double che led that.)

Michael Ixer ● 1787d

Whereas in life we are expected to do what a bunch of old Etonians want us to do?Those grapes must taste pretty sour Barbara.

Matt Palmer ● 1787d

Oh Barbara I fear there is no hope.As ive said before I am no fan of Khan but some of your assumptions are ridiculous.1) do you know for a fact that all spoilt papers were in favour of Bailey ? No.2) your army of erasers do you know for a fact they existed? No3) if they were at work overnight do you know for a fact that they weren't Bailey supporters changing it in his favour? No4) the counts across the country always look like organised chaos but generally they are very well run and with so many political supporters scrutinizing every counter there is no room for funny business.And finally what on earth has his place of origin got to do with anything? The fact he grew up on a council estate in Tooting is neither here nor there. Would it be acceptable if it was a council estate in Putney? Or is it the Council bit you object to rather than where that estate is? As someone from a Cohncil estate myself I wonder what your real objection is.Is it his families place of origin?

Andy Pike ● 1787d

How can any of us agree with anything Sadiq Khan has to say when he might not have been the one to really be elected, you all made a joke about me and pencils, now what about the machines that counted them and the people counting them looked a blasted shambles to me. Now there are problems with trains and transport, when will it end. No Hammersmith Bridge. Families meant to get rid of their cars. Most people are intending to pay the money to come out of their road, so I don't think you will get rid of that many cars. But you will be charged continually if your having a large job done on your property. When does it end. We are expected to have to do what a man from a Council Estate in Tooting has to say, who probably never went anywhere as a child and that's all he knows and expects everybody else to do the same.

Barbara Stevens ● 1787d

Looking at previous 3 elections for mayor that seems to be a pretty normal figure for spoilt papers. So perhaps, it's the same people at each election 🥺😁

Andy Pike ● 1787d

Barbara, on the front page:"Concerns have been raised over the layout of the mayoral ballot paper, however, with more than 42,000 ballots papers rejected because more than one candidate was selected as a first preference."I assume that is postal and non postal.I couldn't find any detail last night. They are changing it going forward perhaps to just one candidate:)The candidate list was too long. Perhaps instead of it being money based the requirement could be changed to have  several thousand individual indorsements?

Ed Robinson ● 1787d

Good lord, first thing from a Keyboard Commando is an insult. It’s not like we have kids socialising on this site, so let’s act like adults and resort to name calling.From the observance I’ve got, Khan’s got very much less support than what he came in with and the Labour Party itself has become less of “Working People’s Party” and more of a party for the “Champagne Socialists” in the Urban centres.But let’s keep petty name calling down. If I want that I’d jump on Twatter and have some anon yelling Fascist, Racist, Nazi, whatever.

Thomas Jones ● 1787d

87,000 Postal votes rejected as filled in wrong. Well there must be a lot of stupid people as some would like to think. I'd say more done on purpose. It should be re done and make sure all who are meant to get papers get them on time. Not like they are saying next time we will make it clearer. It should be now.

Barbara Stevens ● 1787d

"Gerrymandering?"I suspect once Starmer (or whoever is pulling the strings) has finished "reshuffling", living the values and imposing non-local candidates I do not think that will be necessary!

Ed Robinson ● 1788d

There are also boundary changes to come aren't there?Gerrymandering?

Philippa Bond ● 1788d

"..then you get disenfranchised?"Apparently uptil the 1960s literacy tests were carried out in the Southern United States. Sadly voter suppression is still happening today in a number of countries including the US where voters are purged from the list.Of course completely undemocratic. Let's hope the UK doesn't go down that route as I fear XR rebellion members will be high up on the current Home Secretaries list to purge :)Perhaps connected, the list will be simplified next time to a first past the post system.https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/09/government-to-change-english-voting-system-after-labour-mayoral-victories

Ed Robinson ● 1788d

Maybe with two boxes there were people voting for the same person twice?!!

Philippa Bond ● 1788d

perhaps they just had to read the instructions? It all seemed simple enough to me. Perhaps there should be an aptitude test and if you're not clever enough to cope with the concept of two boxes then you get disenfranchised?

Matt Palmer ● 1788d

Well if I know 3 people who had to ask about the boxes how many more did. Then you were told if you didn't want to you didn't have to vote for a 2nd one as well. I think it should be done again with one box. Also make sure everybody get's their paperwork.

Barbara Stevens ● 1788d

"Simon has no need to check his dates"I quoted the dates Jane but that's history now!Looks like we may be returning to first past the post:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/09/government-to-change-english-voting-system-after-labour-mayoral-victories

Ed Robinson ● 1788d

The forms are machine read - I guess it's easier to distinguish two "X"s in different positions than a handwritten 1 from a 2? The forms and instructions seemed pretty straightforward?

Michael Ixer ● 1788d

Yes, as I said, WW1 started in 1914 ie 4 years before the Representation of the People Act in 1918 when the war ended. “IMO’ is irrelevant as this is a question of facts not opinions.

Jane Carter ● 1788d

Quite so, Simon.!

Jane Carter ● 1788d

whatever....

Simon Knight ● 1788d

Simon I believe Lawrence Fox took a similar view of WWI. Indian troops did not get the vote till after WWII and many others after that.

Ed Robinson ● 1788d

Not being funny Ed but life really is too short to cross swords over a trivial detail as to when WW1 started/representation act started.I have zero problem in saying "Yes Ed, you're right and I'm wrong". Because frankly I have no appetite to trawl through the websites you indicate and try to prove the contrary.And I'm not "upset" and neither I suspect is Jane.Jeez!

Simon Knight ● 1788d

Jane & Simon you are not correct IMO and obviously a bit upset about it judging from your replies. WWI started way before the 1918 representation act as stated.Perhaps the BBC and government websites are wrong too?http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/britain_wwone/overview_britain_ww1_01.shtmlThe point is relevant not just to have a accurate view of the wars but there is a tendency in the UK to overstate the age of our democracy, which gives the impressions that it has always worked well and doesn't need changing. In reality we are only part way along the democratic journey and reform is still needed.

Ed Robinson ● 1788d

Ed is either too old to know what key stage 2 is or a youngter struggling with key stage 1...leave daddies computer alone Ed.

Simon Knight ● 1788d

Soooorreeeey Mr Pick-you-up-on-detail. I'll bow to your superior knowledge on history and sooorreeey I didn't have the aforethought to check dates etc before posting but sentiment remains unchanged.Get a life!

Simon Knight ● 1788d

Simon has no need to check his dates. He is correct. You don’t have to be a historian or have studied the period to know that WW1 lasted from 1914 to 1918. WW1 is actually in key stage 2 ie primary school syllabus.

Jane Carter ● 1788d

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/britain_wwone/overview_britain_ww1_01.shtml

Ed Robinson ● 1788d

Simon I think you need to check your dates. The first world war was in 1914. The Representation of the People Act 1918 came later.Im not a historian and did not study that period so thoughts or corrections welcome.

Ed Robinson ● 1788d

Completely agree wit your last sentence.With regard to filling in the form with a 1 and a 2 it wouldn't surprise me if we had to use an 'X' to vote according to some law or other.  Any way maybe next time there will only be a few contenders.

Philippa Bond ● 1788d

Now that's a question.Our forefathers died in 2 world wars to give us the democratic right to vote.On the other hand could it said that they died defending the democratic right NOT to vote should one so desire?Personally I have no views either way.I personally do vote because I feel that if I don't I have no right to then complain about the encumbent PM, Councillor etc

Simon Knight ● 1788d

Did you not get the booklet about how to fill in the forms?  We also had it explained to us when we went to the polling station.There were so many candidates that they had to make two columns of them to fit them on one page and since you get two votes an A and a B column.Personally I think I would have found it easier to have had one column and had to put a 1 for first preference and a 2 for second preference.  There were a lot of names to read through and that was just the mayoral voting paper.There are always people who don't get their voting papers in time (there will have been a lot more applying for a postal vote because of the pandemic) but there are things you can do about it if it doesn't arrive or arrive in time - as others on this forum have managed to deal with it.  Lots of people never bother to vote anyway or deliberately spoil their ballot paper.  Should it be mandatory like in Australia?

Philippa Bond ● 1788d

As I have thought rather strange, why have some people not even received their voting paper's. Also they had 2 squares next to the candidate. I had to ask and so did somebody else and a neighbour. They said also if somebody had put the second person in the first box by mistake then they were void.  This needs looking into, otherwise it wont be XR making a fuss. I think you will find so will a lot of neighbours.

Barbara Stevens ● 1788d

"lost deposits" - predictive is working against me today!

Michael Ixer ● 1788d

"most people think like Vic"Well that's clearly not the case as Sadiq Khan won a majority

Matt Palmer ● 1788d

I do not agree with all the name calling it does not help anyone.Now that the election is over there does need to be a serious discussion about how London's transport and police are funded.The government laid down strict measures for TFL they also have appointed representatives on the board. The TFL fare based funding model was set under Johnson and Osborne at a time when austerity was the policy.We have several drivers when it comes to transport some of them conflict:Reduce air pollutionFund public transportGet the London ecomomy goingULEZ extention helps to achieve some of the first two however the flat rate is not very smart or progressive plus the border is arbitrary. There may be a reason why the charge can not be scaled with a formula for higher polluting more expensive vechiles but I can't see it for example.On the last two it really depends if the government is going to be reasonably. Perhaps a bit too early to tell.

Ed Robinson ● 1788d

"moist deposits"!

Michael Ixer ● 1788d

What was the phrase? "He's won, get over it" 😸 Good news is we gain a lot of cash from failed deposits ...

Michael Ixer ● 1788d

Did you actually read what all the Mayoral Candidates stood for?  I didn't see anyone advocating going back to the horse and cart although that would be preferable to many of the vehicles still on the road.The Greens came third with an increased majority - doesn't that say anything?Too long we've had fossil fuel companies and motoring organisations lobbying and dragging their feet against cleaning up our air and diversifying from fossil fuels.  Now you will see what we call petrol stations where you can charge electric vehicles as well as petrol and diesel - they at last seem to be actively diversifying.

Philippa Bond ● 1788d

Typical response! Stooping to Insults. Shows up for what you are! People can’t have a view anymore!

Vic Condon ● 1788d

I think most people think like Vic, so Richard perhaps your the joke. Lets all dump our vehicles and block where you live.

Barbara Stevens ● 1788d

What a laughable response! Neanderthals like Vic seem completely unconverned about the pollution that blights our lives in favour of keeping filthy vehicles on our roads.

Richard Carter ● 1788d