Forum Topic

26 April, 7.30pm. Ageism - the invisible prejudice in plain site

Webinar - all welcome. Email secretary@putneysociety.org.uk to obtain joining link, and submit any questions you may have. You can also submit questions during the webinar.  Janis Humberstone has long been interested in the way in which the Equalities legislation has evolved since the 1970's with its lacunas, illogicalities and unintended consequences. Ageism as long been the poor relation as far as the law is concerned and in her talk, Janis will explore the reasons why, and the measurable harms caused to those affected. As the name suggests, ageism is bias, or different treatment based solely on age and no other justifiable criteria. The reason for shining a spotlight on it is that those affected are not represented by noisy groups prepared to take to the streets to protest about it. MPs, whatever their political views, are not doing their job either, and holding the feet of successive governments to the fire for their failure to ensure that the law is enforced, and not just there for window dressing. Given the societal sensitivities surrounding so many other areas of inequality, one can only wonder why this should be. Latest application to join the meeting is 24 hours beforehand.Thank you

Putney Society ● 2034d34 Comments

So what questions can we ask?Why does the NHS think we are elderly at 65 when that is earlier than retirement age?  How much are treatments already being rationed?  For example I've been told that the threshold of need for cataract operations has been raised (pre Covid).  Poor eyesight contributes to falls which are quite likely to have an even greater impact on the life and mobility of someone.  How long is the wait currently for physio?

Philippa Bond ● 2030d

I think you mean "plain sight?" Cough.

Mark Phillips ● 2029d

I watch quite a few webinar events which for me are brilliant.  Normally they are hosted by someone who has much enthusiasm and knowledge for their subject. Usually they give a current position of the subject and any ongoing procedures already in place. All through the talk there is a box where you can ask/type questions which are answered at the end of the event.  I do find myself that the speakers cover most aspects before the end.

Barbara Shillabeer ● 2029d

I think you might be right!! Apologies!! I can't correct it. Sorry I didn't notice when posting.

Victoria Diamond ● 2029d

Don't worry Victoria it is the understanding that matters and since it is a homophone it is easy to understand.  I suspect that is why it first made me think of sight and how so many people amongst those waiting for operations must be awaiting cataract ones.  It is just wonderful on either a laptop or a mobile being able to just 'stretch' the size of the text until you can read it. Barbara's point about webinars brings up the digital divide.  Just today there has been talk about speeding up the passage of passengers through airports by having their vaccination and Covid test info on smart phones. I can see that only suiting those passengers that have them.I'm pleased that Barbara has been enjoying webinars.  It is particularly easy when you have been invited to join one (often after registering first).  We too have been doing some of this since the pandemic for the first time. There have been some great presentations with questions as mentioned - but there have been some pretty awful Council planning meetings (not WBC - haven't tried those!) Online pub quizzes with friends have been good and occasional family get-togethers.I've also tried to deal with a doctor using a mobile phone and that was pretty awful as you can't see what you are showing the doctor.  A think a photo sent by mobile might be better.  A friend with a nasty mole and no mobile had a very difficult time trying to get attention from the doctor when she knew from previous experience that she needed attention/a referral.Face Time and Whatsap to see and speak to growing grandchildren good too.  The pandemic would have been worse without them.

Philippa Bond ● 2029d

Current attitudes to ageism are a consequence of many years of youth adoration in this country, culminating in the selfie/influencer culture.Older men certainly do not suffer as much stigma as older females especially if wealthy.  In my youth we admired and feared the grey haired women running offices, schools and businesses.  They held all the power and were pretty ruthless if you didn't measure up! At home those grey haired ladies were founts of wisdom and cash! and revered as such.  Now older people are regarded as incompetent ignoramuses, knowledge is freely available and we are regarded as irritating and disposable.The NHS certainly does discriminate systemically past 65 and after age 74 doctors are not obliged to offer any but palliative treatment.  If we are lucky our GP will be kinder

Jenny Featherstone ● 2028d

Very true Jenny, also we were brought up to respect older people.

Barbara Stevens ● 2027d

Amendment: Please note if you want to attend, please email chair@putneysociety.org.uk, and not secretary. Thank you

Victoria Diamond ● 2027d

And yes, the digital divide has only got worse, I'm afraid. There are those charities who are supplying tablets and phones to those without, and some are able to have lessons, but it is a problem. The Putney Society has tried to find out more, by fortunately being able to send letters to those patients digitally excluded at Putneymead and only accessible by landline and mail. Obviously The Putney Society didn't have the names and addresses, and followed the data protection rules. The people who responded to the letter were, in the majority, finding life tougher without access to computers and were having to find whatever ways they could to get round it. Without up to date phone books, and businesses being closed physically, it certainly has made life more challenging for some. As a result of that initial letter, all the other Medical practices in Putney worked together on a letter to their digitally excluded patients, which included a lot of contact phone numbers and information that they might not have found easy to find. That in turn has filtered through to leaflets being handed out to some receiving the vaccine. People are trying to help, but as I was reading in the media earlier, even a milk delivery company has decided that it will only take online orders, so many of their customers are very upset they won't be able to get deliveries any more. We have to be ever vigilant and not become a cashless, online only society!Do come along to the talk. It promises to be very interesting!

Victoria Diamond ● 2027d

There seems to be an assumption that everyone has access to new technology, eg mobiles and the internet, and that they can use it.  I mentioned on another thread about how some older people cannot update their televisions, let alone use a computer.  Really if you do not have anyone to watch over you when you are older, I don’t know how you manage.

Martine Guy ● 2027d

That milk delivery company was taken over by another big company and although it apparently signed up a lot of new customers - this has also been a big problem for those customers who are not online. They also used to allow you to run an account for another family member eg elderly parent so you did the ordering and they got the delivery.  No more.Another interesting no irritating challenge is with travel and that you can get an over 60 travel card and various other concessions but you may already be unable to use it. It would have been better to incentivise public transport travel earlier. As soon as you actually find it difficult to travel by public transport the ramps etc that made it easier during the Olympics are no longer available or not dependable. It is harder to get around with fewer options - making it harder to give up a car whether or not you are safe driving it.  Blue Badges are notoriously difficult to get and many problems eg a fall may be considered only temporarily disabling so you wouldn't be eligible for one.  If you don't turn up for a hospital apptmt you can be removed from the list yet the hospital transport that used to exist is now difficult to find anywhere. ULEZ seems to have some concessions for cars that have been adapted but not for Blue Badgers.

Philippa Bond ● 2027d

I agree with you Martine.  Technology has moved so fast and keeps on moving fast so no sooner than you seem to get used to something it changes again.Many people do have mobile phones and computers or tablets but that doesn't mean that they can use all the functions on them (and some have them but never use them at all - so just can't).  Just like with the washing machine there are loads of settings but you probably only use a very few of them.  When there is nobody to ask it is even more difficult.I wonder how good Alexa is?  I sometimes hear her trying to answer quiz questions. I met the inventor a year or so ago.  He was interested in how IT like that might change lives.Another problem we had was we put in an electronic calendar for a deaf aunt so that it was easy for her to see and remember which day of the week, month and year it was as well as the time.  This worked well except it had to be left plugged in all the time but she had a habit of unplugging everything at night so that was a failure.  The same happened with the digital radio once it had been unplugged it lost the carefully chosen and preset channels.As Martine mentioned the digital TV updates itself adding new channels and then the old ones can't be found because they've moved but even worse than that the TV won't just switch on and go as in the past - someone who can see and understands needs to go through a procedure to reset it. The microwave became difficult to set because the markings were so poor and there was no pointer.  I managed to make a pointer with Sugru and an RNIB bump-on on the 2 min making it possible to do a little simple heating. For blind FIL the battery run RNIB black and white talking clock was absolutely brilliant - you just have to tap the topand it tells you the time. Hold the top down a little longer and it will give you the day, month an year and date and brilliant of brilliants - it would update itself when the clocks went back or forward.We had one by the bed and one by the armchair (and I even found one in Urdu and English which was interesting).A carer may only stay 15 min - eg make a drink, give pills and fill in a book and go, if they have to get you up and washed and dressed as well as making breakfast etc it takes a lot longer.  We used to reckon a good hour.  None of us like being rushed and it becomes worse as you get older and less mobile.Just a few of the challenges we faced with the generation above us. I hate to think what it will be like if and when we get that old and what challenges we and our children will face!

Philippa Bond ● 2027d

It would be interesting to know the percentage of the fancy functions in some devices that people actually use. It's very annoying when they get in the way of or over complicate the basic operations of a device. Let's hope voice control gets more sophisticated! Looks like technology will just keep getting more complex - but one wonders how many people will actually use the features of, say, a wi fi connected kettle or toothbrush? The other problem is that the documentation that comes with some modern devices such as DTVs is often very rudimentary and very often says what options there are without an explanation of why one might chose one rather than another. I don't think the rate of change is going to slow down though, we'll all need to find out where to plug our cars in rather than put the nozzle in to fill up! (A few weeks ago there was a video on Facebook of a young lady at a filling station walking around a Tessla trying to find where to put the gas nozzle; hope it was real and not staged 🙂)

Michael Ixer ● 2026d

Dear all Thank you all for your comments - they are all absolutely relevant, and I know there is work being done on some of the issues raised. However, the one point which surprised even me, was the suggestion that GPs are only obliged to offer palliative care after the age of 74. I know that until the Domestic Abuse Bill FINALLY went through, the government did not bother to collect data on domestic abuse if the victim was older than 74, but is it really true about GPs not being obliged to offer anything but palliative care to the over 74s? The rationing of treatment will only become worse with the current backlog and I am hoping to see exactly how priorities will be set - after all if there is no chance of treatment, we might as well get saving up now .

Janis Humberstone ● 2018d

Hi PhilippaYou are absolutely right - try hip replacements as well !! As for physio, a call to a GP from someone whose mobility had gone within weeks from trekking 10,000 feet up a mountain to being unable to walk more than a few yards, led to advice to carry on for 6 weeks with exercises he had been doing for months already. When this advice was questioned, it turned out this was really code for "you need to wait 6 weeks before you even get onto the waiting list". Eventually a physio appointment was made and carried out BY TELEPHONE not even Zoom. It is the dishonesty about the extent of the crisis which angers me and the lack of transparency which gets me.

Janis Humberstone ● 2018d

The constant updating of technology - I'm sure unnecessarily - perhaps for marketing purposes is irritating and troublesome.  This was the reason that I ended up scouring Ebay and charity shops for matching Big Button phones so that we could ones which worked in exactly the same way in the hall, by the bed and in the sitting room by the chair - all firmly stuck down with bluetack.  All had been speed dial programmed with the same list of people - dr's surgery, family and friends etc - a list of whom was printed in large font (together with full numbers) and laminated and attached nearby.  We also had a copy to refer to in case we needed it.I did get a bit depressing though when people on the list died... as it didn't seem right and it was rather confusing to replace one person with another. A reminder too of why address books with loads of crossing out can become rather depressing (although you can remind yourself of where someone lived etc).I was reminded at the weekend that we had very large (approx 9x4in) big button TV remotes.  These were far too complicated as we really only needed a few TV functions - on off and volume up and down.  We didn't want VCR as that just complicated matters.  It would have been good if you could disconnect various functions.  So I had to block off a section of buttons with Sugru and plastic packaging.  This was a little complicated as it had to prevent any pushing and activating of the buttons underneath. We managed it though.The RNIB ones had buttons which were too small and the remote would have got lost down the sofa.  The universal big button ones were so big that they could not be missed! 

Philippa Bond ● 2018d

Janice, let us not forget the overlooked part of the NHS for older people and that is mental health services.  My opinion is that past a certain age, they want to put the mentally ill older person into a home rather than treat them in a psychiatric hospital.  Once upon a time, Wandsworth older people went into Barnes Hospital for psychiatric treatment or respite care, and that was stopped for people from our Borough.  I have no idea what has happened to that wonderful hospital, I think it was earmarked for development, but nothing happened.

Martine Guy ● 2018d

Whether one thinks the constant update of technology is needed it looks like nothing is going to stop it ... unless anyone thinks capitalism is going to fail? There's always going to be a drive to cut costs and expant markets with new and "improved" prducts; unless the climate emergency halts that? I guess all developments come with benefits and disadvantages; it's just that they're not always evenly distributed. (Interestingly, Matt's post about his charity emphasises the disparity between rich and poor in the world - forget inequities in our own country between our own rich and poor, old and young, etc!) Although there is an obvious disparity between the use of technology by old and young the recent pandemic has highlighted the digital divide between rich and poor: think of all the laptops that schools were distributing to disadvantaged pupils so they could learn at home during lockdowns, although they often didn't have adequate broadband services to use them effectively. On the other hand, I remember when working in financial services IT we had concerns about older clients using online services but as it turned out it was those retired with plenty of time who were looking at their investments daily and phoning up their financial advisors if they weren't happy with the performance! (Unfortunately, they weren't always aware of the dangers of using email.) I think we need to be careful with generalisations - education and wealth have a bearing as well as age. That doesn't mean some older people aren't disadvantaged by complex systems that are poorly documented and are difficult to operate for those with poor eyesight, hearing loss or arthritis. Let's hope voice control becomes the norm over the next few years! I guess the answer is that there needs to be some way of providing information and education on these new developments and perhaps regulating their usability. I'm not sure of the best way of achieving that. Family and friends can assist - I've given advice to a friend of a similar age regarding his mobile phone - and government agencies and care organisations can regulate or guide but there's still the problem of those on their own. That probably links in with general assistance for older people from care and health services? But we need to be careful of criticising technology advances: many of us have been pleased of online shopping, remote working and Zoom conferences during the pandemic: as a result many of us want higher bandwidth and faster broadband connections and in answer to this BT and others are rolling out Fibre to the Home across the country during the next decade or so. However, one issue with this is that our copper based century old switched telephone system is no longer workable (or economic for BT to run now we all use smart mobile phones - hard to believe in the late 1960s telephones subsidised postal services!) so in the next 4-5 years it's planned to replace it with internet telephony (which is already used by many businesses). We get the good, better bandwidth, with something, internet telephony, consumers may not have asked for: the cost of progress? I don't think we'll stop new technological developments; it's how we make them easy, safe and secure to use and understand, and how to stop sections of the community being left behind. Not saying I have any answers, just some points for discussion 🙂

Michael Ixer ● 2018d

I've had loads of scam calls this week and the last one couldn't even pronounce my name. So I kept saying you want the cleaner. I may be a bit behind the times on technology, but I also feel I'm safe guarding myself. If I use cash in the shops then I can't loose my card, unless I want to buy something more expensive. My son a few years ago had a load of money taken from his card in a Petrol station in Mitcham. Luckily the Bank rang my son and told him and asked him where he used his card to fill up. My son told the Bank  he had had a go at the man in the Petrol Station wanting to know why he kept looking up in the air. He could obviously see the pin number my son was using.

Barbara Stevens ● 2018d

Martine I agree, I can be a bit stupid myself, even after working in offices for years. But then you just typed on the computer everything was already done for you. I've got a pay as you go phone not because I can't afford a new one, more I'm a stick in the mud. Phones for 3 are now charging 10p a minute on a call or text. So talking for 1/2 an hour is stupid. As for all the leads on the TV heaven know what I would do if something went wrong with the TV if I didn't have my partner. So yes I think it must be near impossible for any elderly person to function and get E=mails from Surgery's or anywhere for that matter. So the surgery text me.

Barbara Stevens ● 2018d

My friend went for an apptmt at the eye clinic that she had waited weeks for the other day.  She has very bad sight now and can no longer use a mobile or computer so the hospital has been asked numerous times to phone her on the landline and leave an answerphone message if need be - as she accesses those regularly.  Her apptmt had been cancelled.  Travelling to these apptmts is not easy for her - she sometimes gets a lift from a friend and sometimes takes a taxi.She got a letter from the hospital telling her of the cancellation the following day.

Philippa Bond ● 2018d

Hi MartineI did actually mention the fact that older people tend to miss out on treatments like talking therapies in my recent talk to the Putney Society - unfortunately the tech rather let us down, so I was not able to hear the questions at the end properly. However, there was a suggestion from someone whose name I did not catch, that talking therapies (for example) were very definitely on the menu from Wandsworth. Part of the reason older people experience depression in older age is that having spent a lifetime exposed to  subliminal negative stereotypes of older people and ageing, these negative stereotypes then feed into feelings people have about themselves when they reach the age at which they become the subject of the stereotyping. This is actually the reason that all groups which suffer from prejudice appear more prone to depression than others.

Janis Humberstone ● 2018d

Janis, I don't actually agree about all this stereotypes that your trying to explain. I have plenty of friends my age and from an early age didn't listen to our parents and did what we wanted to do. Also having a laugh and making a joke about all what we are meant to do and not meant to do. I can understand what your saying , but don't agree, once you leave home you then do what you want to. I'm sure most people years ago couldn't wait to leave home. Now it's harder because everything cost's so much.  I do not believe about all this stereotypes, but obviously the Putney Society know more about it than us with the continued blocking and trying to take over our roads. Also what happened to old people years ago with the war etc. they are probably a lot stronger mentally than any of you. Instead of keep using words like stereotypes which probably an old person would say what is she talking about. How about just make it easier for people to get about, in a ride in a car, or arranging for them to go to some kind of social club so they are in contact with other people.

Barbara Stevens ● 2018d

Have been with Barclays for some time.  Do all my finances online.  Relatively recently I kept getting 'timed out' on certain transactions where there was a lot of security.  Barclays explanation was, I needed less time to enter details to be more secure .  At my age my fingers not so agile and I need more time.  I was told they had upgraded and had not considered'slower 'people.  Were unable to do anything until the next upgrade. To be fair they did sound concerned.  There must be one or two people who for whatever reason are slower, not necessarily being older people.

Barbara Shillabeer ● 2017d

Yes, a six week wait before being added to a waiting list.  I can't remember how long that waiting list was now.The feeling is that there is a hope that you will not need the place because you get better or will go private first.I've always found it odd that you are treated as you appear right now and with no relation to the fact that you were very fit just before whatever happened. So you could have been already bedridden or you could have been climbing mountains.

Philippa Bond ● 2015d

You and Yours today on Radio 4 is asking about people who are having trouble with everything going online to call them.https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000vp3k

Philippa Bond ● 2015d

This charity helping to close the digital divide was mentioned on the programme today:https://www.goodthingsfoundation.org/Remember you can listen to this programme again or just if you missed it.

Philippa Bond ● 2015d

Thanks for the link, Philippa. I only caught bits ot the programme as I was doing something else at the time. From the parts I heard some people, for various reasons, didn't want to use online services and objected to being either forced to use them or feeling they were being excluded. I wonder if offering a phooe service in future will become a product differentiator to attract certain groups of customers?

Michael Ixer ● 2014d

Yes, it was interesting.  It is also interesting just looking at the two Barbara's posts.  There are so many different aspects to our uses and abilities in using the internet that it is difficult to to expect everyone to be able to do the same things.  There are also the dangers of using it so a certain amount of confidence gained from familiarity with it is needed.When I was considering a tablet for a friend I discovered that Age UK I think had tried to market a simpler one. In fact though it is easier to learn something bit by bit as you need to use the new functions and having someone who can help you if you get stuck is important.  That is why some tech is better when it is more universal.  Tablets where you can stretch the screen to make typing larger are very useful.

Philippa Bond ● 2014d

Philippa. I think the important thing that came out of the programme was that people need a motivation to use the internet. The inertia for them to use it may depend on their knowledge and confidence in using the technology. In some cases the distrust or dislikeof it means they won't be moved to try at all, whereas if one has to use it for one's job there's a very strong incentive! I must admit although I'm comfortable using the internet there are times when I don't: I've found the knowledge the ticket staff have at Putney station and the Waterloo advanced booking offices has saved me money or given advice that I would not have found easily myself on line.I'd personally steer clear of simplified "special" devices as they may have restricted functionality and either not work with certain internet facilities or not accept some updates meaning they may become obsolete sooner - that could just be my predudice, I'd rather stick with mainstream devices. I'd agree that tablets are generally easier to use than PCs (I mainly use an Android tablet) but Windows generally has richer features so may be necessary, or easier, for some activities - for example, participating in a large, interactive  Zoom meeting or tracing the routing of an email's path through the internet.And, security and trust is an issue; there's no real way of being certain who one is corresponding u with by email, etc even if you think you know who's at the other end; on the other hand, security services (and Google) can be quite adept at tracing you - or criminals - the trouble is if they're half way round the globe they can't nessarily catch them. This is one of my favourite internet names 🙂:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_you%27re_a_dog

Michael Ixer ● 2014d

It is difficult to relax doing something new when you are under pressure.  As  somebody mentioned on the programme 'why don't they come with a booklet'.  It can be exasperating trying to use something when it keeps expecting you to be able to find the instructions online which you will then have to memorise.  Like when your phone does not work and the instructions are to phone up.  Or the internet doesn't work and you are asked to email.Re the station.  Several people have complained to be recently that they can't read the small digital instructions  on the ticket machines - and also on the new machine for car wash somewhere else.  They obviously appear to have not been tested with anyone who doesn't have older or poorer sight!

Philippa Bond ● 2012d

I remember that petrol station scam.  There are so many online ones now as well as the telephone ones.

Philippa Bond ● 2010d

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/11/more-than-2m-voters-may-lack-photo-id-required-under-new-uk-bill

Philippa Bond ● 2006d

@ Victoria  It sounds like sterling work has been done in Putney to try and engage with those who are digitally excluded.After your post there was an item on BBC Radio 4's You and Yours about a women who intends taking that milk company to court for discrimination which may be worth following up.  Sometimes it can just be a very ambitious manager somewhere - I wonder whether the big chief in Switzerland is aware of the upset caused?

Philippa Bond ● 2005d