Forum Topic

Greenhouse gas emissions

Good to see that, on Easter Bank Holiday Monday, renewable energy sources made up almost 80% of Britain's power generation: wind power made up 39% of the energy mix, with solar at 21% and nuclear accounting for 16%.  Of course, achieving this record was helped by sunny weather and strong winds, but nevertheless it represents real progress.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56657299Meanwhile, it's depressing to read in a recent report that that the target of reducing greenhouse gases isn't helped by the growth in the ridiculous SUV market. The numbers of these fuel-inefficient brutes (on average, they consume about a quarter more energy than medium-size cars) lumbering around have doubled their market share over the last 10 years.What's even worse is that three-quarters of all SUVs sold in the UK to private citizens in 2019-2020 were registered to urban addresses, and even in the largest class of SUVs, which are more likely to have genuine 4-Wheel-Drive and off-road capability, two-thirds of new vehicles sold are registered to addresses in towns and cities.Furthermore, the top three districts for Large SUVs were Kensington & Chelsea, Hammersmith & Fulham, and Westminster, all Inner London boroughs and, in case you wondered what it might have to do with us, ingloriously seventh for the whole country is our own Wandsworth."Mindgames on wheels: How advertising sold false promises  of safety and superiority with SUVs" https://bit.ly/3mqzj7q

Richard Carter ● 1820d37 Comments

See above post plus this which I found when looking at all the alternatives.  I know it isn't London and isn't Putney but we won't improve anything if we only look at life and travel from an increasingly diminishing perspective.https://olderdriversforum.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/1690306-older-drivers-forum-managing-without-a-car-booklet-2016-2.pdfThere is quite a lot of info out there.

Philippa Bond ● 1812d

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/buses/demand-responsive-bus-servicehttps://www.smarttransport.org.uk/insight-and-policy/latest-insight-and-policy/is-demand-responsive-transport-a-viable-solution

Philippa Bond ● 1815d

I see your point but wouldn't fragmentation of a system cause problems?  There would be a lack of flexibility of what was used where.  There is a difference in trains that stop at every station and non-stop expresses.There were some trials done by TfL of on demand minibuses in areas of London.  These need a while to set in so it is difficult to immediately see what results are.  I think a lot of preparatory work needs to be done of who would use them and going where.  I know they use them in Oxford.Didn't the new Heatherwick double deckers have to be called back to be retrofitted with AC?  What is the situation now with a respiratory disease pandemic?

Philippa Bond ● 1815d

At least sitting on the back of one of them heading for work would negate the need to open windows.

Andy Pike ● 1815d

Perhaps the old electric milk float illiterates the point better.

Ed Robinson ● 1815d

Freddie it's not the frequency that matters it's the design.They are designed to meet motorway use requirements. I'm sure we can all remember trips to the seaside on a double decker.What I'm saying is that for a lot of routes that is an over design that comes at a cost I.e. more weight and more fuel more inefficiencyand more cost.We need to separate out the routes that require high speed 40/50/60/70 mph (now even30mph) with the inner city norm that is 20mph.

Ed Robinson ● 1815d

“The current double deckers are designed for motorway use”Really? Can’t say buses on motorways are something I’ve experienced with great any frequency. Where did you get that idea from???

Freddie Francis ● 1815d

"I guess some passenger loading modelling is required? "Yes Michael, a big mistake I think is not encouraging passengers to swipe out when disembarking buses - data is key.The Kingston bus is in a different category as it is actually travelling along a 40mph/30mph route until Tibbetts roundabout. Far different to the 20 mph stopping every few hundred yards that most local buses do. Diesels burn fuel all the time - it would be interesting to see the time still vs maximum (20mph) speed per route. The 20mph is a real game changer IMO. The current double deckers are designed for motorway use which is far from what is needed for 20mph use.

Ed Robinson ● 1815d

Ed, they weren't really assumptions, just points to question. (Note the "?"s) I'm not a regular bus user so I'll take your view on bus passenger loadings; although interestingly, when I do get a bus to Kingston or Tooting it's often fairly empty at Putney but fills up, even gets overcrowded, for part of the route - an exception to that is in the evening apart from buses around closing time. I guess some passenger loading modelling is required? 

Michael Ixer ● 1815d

I think you had to phone to make an appointment to attend a showroom.  I remember hearing that they had worked something out so that they could keep on selling cars during later lockdowns.Here's some good news about reducing GHG emissions from buildings:https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/news/major-housing-associations-form-partnership-to-improve-energy-efficiency-of-300000-homes-70348

Philippa Bond ● 1815d

Michael, regarding employment your making the assumption that these buses are full they are not. On the few times they have been its due to people waiting so long and buses get turned around before the stated destination in my past experience. It then takes longer to get on and off with the doors being blocked and upstairs being empty.Most are not carrying anywhere near their 90-120 capacity. I still think they are heavily over specified considering the now 20mph speed limit. I'm not sure if they have ever served London well.

Ed Robinson ● 1816d

Ed, I'd agree that smaller, more frequent electric buses that can be charged regularly would be more convenient.  Possibly a cost implications: (1) two or three (or four) small buses with their own drive chains, etc might be more expensive than one large bus? (2) more drivers might be required? Good for employment figures but not for the transport budgets?

Michael Ixer ● 1816d

Ed, I'd agree that smaller, more frequent electric buses that can be charged regularly would be more convenient.  Possibly a cost implications: (1) two or three (or four) small buses with their own drive chains, etc might be more expensive than one large bus? (2) more drivers might be required? Good for employment figures but not for the transport budgets?

Michael Ixer ● 1816d

A Google error by myself perhaps new glasses needed to!It does look like the policy is to more or less stick with the existing routes that made some sense decades ago.I passed an old route master earlier today, narrow and short unlike the huge size of the current double decker.Michael considering the distance and speed most "local" buses travel I do not see the issue with smaller battery powered buses. On fact a battery powered small bus makes more sense than a battery powered car which get little return on the cost.

Ed Robinson ● 1816d

Ed, that seems to relate to cycling and walking. There is reference to a bus contract in April 21 but I couldn't see details of that - but admittedly have had time to do a proper search.

Michael Ixer ● 1816d

TfL has entered into contracts with five as part of the framework are:  Costain Limited  Eurovia Infrastructure Limited  FM Conway Limited  Tarmac Kier JV  VolkerFitzpatrick LimitedThe new framework will cover construction of future TfL walking and cycling schemes, including new Cycleways.Transport for London (TfL) has awarded five new contracts as part of its Surface Transport Infrastructure Construction Framework, which will help ensure walking and cycling projects continue to be delivered to a high standard and that the capital's road network has safe and well-maintained infrastructure for years to come.  The new contracts will be used to deliver schemes to boost walking and cycling across the Transport for London Road Network (TLRN), including future projects to expand London's growing network of high-quality Cycleways. These projects will be vital to enabling more people in the capital to make journeys by bike and on foot, which will help to cut congestion, air pollution and road danger across London.  The new contracts also cover renewals work on much of the infrastructure that the Transport for London Road Network depends on, including its bridges, road tunnels and river assets. Renewals work typically takes place every few years and is more significant than day to day maintenance, for which separate contracts are awarded. The contracts also cover the construction of enhancements to these assets where needed. Contractors will be asked to deliver early input, design and construction work through the framework. 

Ivonne Holliday ● 1816d

Michael,Looks like TFL have signed a 6 year bus contract back in February (see below). I have to look into the details but it wonder if it is more of the same when something more radical is needed. I must have missed the big local discussion around public transport????"The framework runs for six years from April 2021 until March 2027, for use by TfL, London Boroughs and other authorities whose developments impact on the TfL Road Network."https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2021/february/tfl-awards-new-contracts-to-ensure-safer-and-more-sustainable-journeys-on-london-s-roads

Ed Robinson ● 1816d

Johnathan, not disputing about the one you went to was open, but it does say Showrooms not open till 12th April. So I'm not sure how they will have managed Registering the New Vehicles, as this had been twice a year March and September. Or how the Factories got on making them, especially with the virus. Second hand cars probably not a problem, also Mot's from last November ish.

Barbara Stevens ● 1816d

Agreed, Ed, but I think the point is that short term we may go down some blind alleys. Batteries in HGVs and buses doesn't make sense. At one time London had electric trolley buses - probably not that green in the days coal was used for generating power - but perhaps another option for cities? Bus lanes for trolley buses and electric taxis?

Michael Ixer ● 1816d

We talk about ULEZ and its extension because it concerns us here but of course there are also LEZs in other cities in the UK and in Europe.  We don't escape air pollution just by leaving the EU! Remember how that Icelandic volcano stopped all the flights into the UK and we started having more online meetings and smoke from the Californian fires was also detected here. Sometimes I think we forget that we are all part of a bigger world.https://theconversation.com/londons-ultra-low-emission-zone-will-it-make-the-city-healthier-114942https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/emissions/clean-air-zones/I was casually trying to find out where would be a good place for an elderly Blue Badger to look for a small second hand petrol car ULEZ conforming car to last just a few years more. (Not me.)  Without an end time it is difficult to know how long! You know how things get put off until its a crisis.

Philippa Bond ● 1816d

Of course Michael but we do know what technology, policies and regulations exist today enabling us to have discussions and make decisions for the next couple of years.

Ed Robinson ● 1816d

Ed I wasn't suggesting we waited until 2030! Just noting we don't know what the next decade will bring in the way of technological and social developments, or how political events might influence them. (If Russia invaders Ukraine will we have a worse crisis following the pandemic, and would that redfirect research?)

Michael Ixer ● 1816d

Michael I don't think we can wait until 2030. I was hoping for a significant shift over the next Mayor term.Another point that I would make which links to Philippa's post on cost. That is one of tax.Tax on motor vechiles was not explicitly progressive but had a progressive element. Then we moved to emissions based which changed but still largely the more costly vechiles emmited more emissions so that progressive element remained. Of course in both the above larger engines would mean more fuel and running costs.We have to be careful that the current and near future situation looks like getting more regression. I do not hear any conversations from the political parties on this. But with the ULEZ coming in it is very late to start having one!

Ed Robinson ● 1816d

Isn't there a view that fuel cells rather than batteries might be more suitable for larger EVs, that is lorries, buses, etc. For the moment the industry seems to have settled on batteries for smaller EVs. I guess like other areas of consumer technology there's still a lot of research going on and they'll be a few dead ends before the transport industry settles on one or two standards. (Was involved in a FB conversation on how the music industry settled on two standards - RCA's 45 singles and Columbia's 33⅓ LPs - until CDs came along!) Who knows what we'll be  driving - or even how we'll be travelling - after 2030 ...

Michael Ixer ● 1816d

The big news for me with EVs has been the replacement of the first generation Nissan Leaf batteries which are now over 10 years old. Many of these cars are in excellent condition. A lot of the new batteries are sourced from collision vechiles.The old removed batteries are then used for office or home electricity storage.This has changes my view of EVs. But we are still behind on the micro mobility market and the need for a smaller lighter EVs.For London I'm not convinced about the huge double deckers for a lot if not most routes no matter how they are powered. (Although tourist have ranked the big red bus higher than Royalty in the past).Certainly we need frequent clean and efficiency public transport but we need to look at speed and usage. Putting a electric engine in a multi tonne vechile designed for motorway use but only travels 20mph with frequent stops is not efficient! No doubt the anti-car car brigade will argue differently but it looks like efficiency will be key in the next Mayor term.

Ed Robinson ● 1816d

Yes, with the usual restrictions. The carmakers will not stop you buying a new car if you want one! I had to get my VW serviced and the showroom was open. Everybody socially distanced and in masks of course. For a test drive they'd have to clean the car before and after I imagine.

Jonathan Callaway ● 1816d

Johnathan, have the showrooms even been open for car sales.

Barbara Stevens ● 1816d

EVs are taking off in terms of sales and with ever more of our energy coming from wind and solar they are very much the cleaner option.  Unfortunately, like all vehicles, they still produce PMs in the form of tyre and brake wear but they are still a vast leap forward from what the internal combustion engine produces.And they are getting more affordable both in terms of purchase and running costs - some electricity top-up points are cheaper than others but unit costs are falling.My petrol car does 70 mpg on a run (not that I have been on any sort of run for ages) and that is about as good as a pure petrol car can get (that's better than a hybrid on a longer run though a petrol car is nowhere near as good as a hybrid around town).  I strongly suspect my next car will be electric.

Jonathan Callaway ● 1816d

Philippa haven't you got anything else to think of.

Barbara Stevens ● 1817d

You can find out more about EVs here:https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/new-and-used-cars/article/hybrid-and-electric-cars/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-electric-car-a8f4g1o7JzXjYou can see some of the differences here and how the charging system needs to be much more joined-up.

Philippa Bond ● 1817d

This is interesting:https://www.energiesprong.uk/That Green Homes Grant has been taken away to be used by Councils apparently as it wasn't working.Mikhail & Riches Goldsmith Street in Norwich looks still to be something to aspire to.The Pritzker Prize went to a retrofit in France.

Philippa Bond ● 1819d

Advertising promises are a big problem.  We all knew about the VW problem but it was much later that I heard it applied to Mercedes as well.  There are constant advertisements to make claims.Now there are questions about the claims being made for hybrids as well as probably anything else on the roads.Which had an interesting report on electric car charging calling for changes to it to make it at least simpler.  Zap has maps showing the chargers but more needs to be done.  We can't all just move to electric cars.Car Club hire has gone very quiet.  Bollore seems to have left the country if not the market.  They seemed to have electric car hire cars parked in a lot of charging spaces at one time.  A deal done apparently with BJ. 

Philippa Bond ● 1819d

From the figures on Statista.com it doesn't look as though there's been much change in the average number of cars owned per household, at least in recent years:https://www.statista.com/statistics/314912/average-number-of-cars-per-household-in-england/

Richard Carter ● 1820d

As someone explained not all SUVs are 4x4s and not all 4x4s are SUVS.  The bull bars have gone.  I'd like to know how many of the longer once ubiquitous Volvo estates have been replaced by shorter SUVs and how many families have disposed of one car to become one car families rather than two and have chosen to keep the larger car as a family car.  If you were to have a city car and a country car - it would mean having two cars surely?  Hurray for the train stations that are becoming more accessible.  We need better public transport.  We need more and better promotion of shared car schemes as well as cycling.

Philippa Bond ● 1820d

You must celebrate your fellow-citizen's free choice.

David Ainsworth ● 1820d

"One of advertising's biggest manipulations has persuaded urban families that it's perfectly 'normal' to go shopping in a two-tonne truck. "https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56647128

Matt Palmer ● 1820d

Incidentally, there was a very good interview with Greta Thunberg in the FT weekend magazine, free to view on their website at https://www.ft.com/content/6ee4bb03-3039-446a-997f-91a7aef5f137.Here's a sample:"Searching for an upside to the current situation, I ask whether she sees any silver linings from the crisis, which caused global emissions to drop by 6 per cent last year. 'The corona pandemic brought nothing positive,' she says bluntly. 'The emissions reductions we could see were temporary and accidental . . . They didn’t occur due to us actually trying to reduce emissions. So this has got nothing to do with climate action.' But the pandemic does contain a lesson, she says: 'It proves that the climate crisis has never once been treated as a crisis. It just puts it in a different light'.”

Richard Carter ● 1820d