Forum Topic

Is zero population growth a vote winner?

The pictures of Hong Kong prompted this question,  but also a trend of issues which are related to population density like pollution,  traffic, parks being hammered this year, school places, large developments etc.Would you see a policy of zero population growth as a thing you would vote for?  At the ward, council, city or national level?I think I would generally on a quality of life and environmental front.  I feel Putney, Wandsworth and London are dense enough.  The UK possibly too, although I think we should try to encourage people to move round a bit. I'm avoiding three awkward question of how!  But at the local level I'm surprised there isn't more weight put on this politically.

Alan Sherman ● 1857d50 Comments

There used to be someone on this website who offered IT lessons in a cafe  That is such a valuable lesson. We never managed to get our parents to use mobiles (despite a lot of hard work) but now that there is Facetime and WhatsAp it can help even more as they can show us something they are trying to explain is wrong or we can read a label online.  If only they can work them!  Changing IT is a nightmare because of learning something new and worse when you can't read instructions.  I searched the charity shops to find Big Button phones of the same design to match the one that we had by the chair in the sitting room so that we had one in the bedroom and one in the hall as well which all worked in exactly the same way.  I programmed them and laminated a sheet with eg 1 = Fred,  2 = Mary, 3 = Pharmacy, 4 = us etc so it was easy to call friends and family.  It all works well until eventually ill-health or bad luck kicks in.When FIL fell ill we took it in turns to work from there (internet was important we we managed to get it put in (many parents wouldn't allow it) but no-one warned me and I never thought about it/realised how tough it would be living with someone who because they had a couple of naps a day wanted to get up early and go to bed horribly late and long after the carers came even when we last on their list!  There was a constant grumble about 6pm!  We needed respite.Despite telling us that he would move when the time came into a home when it actually came to it he didn't want to...Many people want to stay in their own homes as long as possible, this also can suit the council as Care Homes are expensive.    the basic £1,000 a week nowadays that pensions are not as good as in the past makes it more difficult to be able to go early into one of the homes that you can use as a base to get your meals and help if you are ill and not have to worry about all the problems of running your home.Although we told there were landlines at the home when it came to it there weren't enough and so we could no longer have our regular evening phone call...  Keeping in touch/ keeping the communication up is hard - particularly when there are not enough staff to make it easy.

Philippa Bond ● 1847d

I think that the re-tuning/updating of televisions is a very real problem for older and vulnerable people.  It is the same problem in carehomes and something I had to frequently remind the staff about.  You have to wonder how many people, self-isolating in lockdown are unable to update their t.v?  
I read yesterday that they have invented robot guide dogs and I think robots are going to be used more and more in care.

Martine Guy ● 1847d

Martine  TVs have become so much more difficult.  FIL used his all the time but to listen to.  He had a favourite station and I had a sticker on the stand giving this and the number.  What was really awful was when it went digital and it would do things on it own updating and adding other channels.  Then it would not go on as far as he was concerned and it needed someone to press some different buttons because it had a message on the screen which he couldn't read.  If a carer visited at home in the morning they might not necessarily deal with it and he could be without it for hours when he liked to have it on nearly all day.He always felt that the carers were busy (they were they were over timetabled) and wouldn't ask for anything as he felt that others were worse off than he was.  (He also may have forgotten to.)

Philippa Bond ● 1847d

Philippa, I agree with you, but here’s a couple of things, some people with dementia can’t remember how to use their t.v, and may prefer to stay in their room, if this is the case the staff need to operate the t.v for them, so they are not sat in solitude all day.  T.V. is such an important companion.  More importantly, some people with dementia decline their food, it is crucial records are made of how much they eat and when they last ate, so they do not starve to death.  

Martine Guy ● 1848d

There was concern that the CQC did not have teeth.  I don't know if/how that has changed.  We did not have problems with respite - that was probably better than full-time.  I know that they prefer to have people for longer ie from earlier on so that they can get to know them which is understandable but also from the point of a business cynically they would say that wouldn't they?You can comment on the CQC website.We found that because everybody now has their own TVs in their rooms that they often chose not to come out to the day room.  Those sitting in there were often those who had been taken there and did not/could not speak.  For my blind FIL who wanted to socialise this was pretty devastating.  Although they did have some entertainment come in I think it was a tough job to get people to join in.  I just love it when local choirs visit because singing is wonderful therapy and those who don't/can't speak can often sing the songs of their youth that they know so well.Meals can be a bit like boarding school and I would have liked to see some method of moving people around so that they can meet new people and talk to other people instead of set tables where it can be a bit cliquey.  This seemed to be the main social entertainment!  I suppose if they did that they would choose to stay in their rooms to eat. I hate to think what we are going to be like when in the same situation! 

Philippa Bond ● 1848d

Martine, My cousin and her husband were both put in the same home in Bournemouth,they had separate rooms and they were paying thousands. My cousin had really bad R/Arthritus and it turned out her husband had back cancer. He died only the other year but she was still there till April last year. Her son was moving with his wife to Blackpool so they took her to a home up there. I think she would have been better left in Bournemouth where she new them in the home. As there was no contact for the last year anyway apart from waving through the window. But after you have paid so much I don't think you then continue paying it has to be decided if you can stay in the same home, then the Government take over the payments.

Barbara Stevens ● 1849d

Thanks again for the advice, both of you.  One of the things I find incredible is the enormous amounts of money involved for a very basic level of care.  We did not pay care fees, but if we had done, they were £1,000 per week.  Eg, I asked for a chiropodist to come in, as none seemed to come in for about 4/5 months.  In the end I paid for one, as I got fed up with asking.  Entertainment was pretty much non-existent, besides t.v.  I supplied bedding as what they provided was ridiculous.   My opinion is that carehomes should be run by the State.  I guess people would still have to pay fees, but hopefully there would be more rules which carehomes would have abide by.  I may go to Age Concern, but it’s finding the time and effort.  I have thought of going to the Care Quality Commision, but people reckon they are a waste of time. The best carehomes I saw or used, as there was a time we used occasional respite, were in Richmond.  

Martine Guy ● 1849d

The difference is if it is the staff at the home or the whole setup. If it is individuals, they can be more easily sorted with. If it is the whole setup a different matter.That's when Chairman need to be informed.

Barbara Stevens ● 1849d

Martine  I've just been looking at the Age UK website and unfortunately they seem to have finished their campaign about care.  They work with the All Party Parliamentary Group (APPG).  The report is here:parliamentary-briefing---make-care-fair---january-2020.pdfThere is strength in numbers and I can see why people come together as a group to campaign.  I did notice that Fleur Anderson is not listed (as yet - perhaps she can be asked) an Age UK Champion.  Your experiences will be important but understandably may be too painful to recount although writing about things can be very therapeutic.  Do take a look at the Age UK website to see what is happening. I wish we'd known that they did this when we were experiencing the lack of continuity of care etc and unfairness of the system.

Philippa Bond ● 1849d

Thanks for the input and suggestions, Barbara and Philippa.  My problem is this: I have a lot to say but I do not want to do any of the hard work involved.  I spent 14 recent years as a carer and I want to move on and lead a quiet life.  I am happy to support others, eg I gave an interview to a BBC reporter regarding carehomes, but it wasn’t used, in fact the programme went out a bit different from what I thought it would be. I live in hope that someone will do something.  Personally, as I say, I can’t face it, even contacting our MP is just too much.

Martine Guy ● 1849d

Martine.  I agree with you it needs to be cross party.  I also agree with Barbara that contacting your MP is a good idea but it does depend how interested your MP is and some are more interested in particular subjects and problems than others are.  Age UK runs campaigns and I believe does make presentations at the HOC. I wonder if there are any Committees in Parliament running on this because it would be interesting to know who is working on them?  I may try and have a look.

Philippa Bond ● 1850d

If Justin Greening was still in I would say, ring her secretary at the House of Commons. Or write a letter. I had a Dentist problem and contacted PALS. who kept me months passing me from one person to another, I kept everyone of their names and put this in the letter to the House of Commons. I got my teeth sorted as Justin contacted the Chairman and had it done free.  You can only but try. You need to go to the top.

Barbara Stevens ● 1851d

Philippa, I agree with your comments.  Older people’s social care is a problem that no-one wants to tackle.  I would like all political parties join together on this and I would like leadership by someone who isn’t a politician, eg someone like Esther Rantzen or Joan Bakewell.  In addition, I would like to see input from representatives of the public.  I have plenty to say about social care and psychiatric care, or lack of it, but where do I take it?  It is a disgrace to be honest.

Martine Guy ● 1851d

They are both problems.  The casual neglect and lack of a joined up system for people who are delivered home from hospital in the middle of the night without a care package set up or family/neighbours even being alerted to put the heating on, and the carers who can't be relied on.With what has happened with care homes let's hope there are changes because otherwise it will make the discussions and decisions to downsize and then to move on into one more problematic.  With empty and half empty homes there will need to be more building.

Philippa Bond ● 1852d

David. I think you're heading towards a deep philospical discussion about wealth creation and distribution, how we value different resources, who should own them and how they are used ..

Michael Ixer ● 1852d

"If I am going to pay for care, I would frankly rather buy a robot, like they are using in Japan."Fine, but if you were aged and dependent upon the state, with small savings as your old job had been taken over by robots, you would need the state to have an income to buy you a robot or to pay a human care worker. That would include income taxes from existing workers. And these workers may be displaced too and no longer have an income on which to pay tax. I am probably missing something out here.

David Ainsworth ● 1852d

"Are they electric or battery operated?"Pedal-powered or hand-cranked, I hope.

David Ainsworth ● 1852d

David, my hope in life is that I can stay living independently or in sheltered accommodation, when I get older.  I do not want to go into a carehome.  If I am going to pay for care, I would frankly rather buy a robot, like they are using in Japan.  You really are clueless, imo, and that is where I am finishing my conversation with you, in case I say something I regret. Barbara has made a good point about care and the situation is now made worse by lockdown.

Martine Guy ● 1852d

BarbaraLooking at this chap/chapess, a robot being demonstrated at an exhibition, I'm assuming as it doesn't have a tail it's electric but with a rechargeable battery ...https://flic.kr/p/2jg9pL9Yes, there's always a concern about treatment when one's not visiting. I had to think my mother was happy with her care home as once when I visited when she was talking with a fellow resident she referred to it as "this hotel".

Michael Ixer ● 1852d

"This is about care standards, and you don’t have a clue."Care standards have to be paid for somehow, don't they, whether they are paid for by the individual concerned or by the state?https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/care/paying-for-care/

David Ainsworth ● 1852d

I'm afraid the problem is, you don't see how your relations are being treated once visiting is over.

Barbara Stevens ● 1852d

"Japan is facing major demographic challenges due to the elderly wave, low fertility rates and a shrinking population"I might be wrong but it looks like they prefer plastic robots to immigrants.

David Ainsworth ● 1852d

This is about care standards, and you don’t have a clue.  

Martine Guy ● 1852d

"from what I have seen, I would prefer to be cared for by a robot."Then let us hope that the robotisation of the majority of people's jobs will produce unlimited wealth for all of us.

David Ainsworth ● 1852d

Are they electric or battery operated.

Barbara Stevens ● 1852d

Japan is leading the way with robot helpers...https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200205-what-the-world-can-learn-from-japans-robots

Michael Ixer ● 1852d

Why would you pay a robot?  is this a joke, because I don’t find it funny?   Casual neglect exists in the care system and from what I have seen, I would prefer to be cared for by a robot.

Martine Guy ● 1852d

Will these robots be paid and pay income tax? If not, how will our services be supported?

David Ainsworth ● 1852d

Martine  Well I agree to a point.  Not all of the elderly want a 16 year old who can't make a sandwich or a proper cup of tea to be the only person to visit them especially if they are unreliable and may not turn up if they get a more interesting offer.  A robot just might by then be able to do those jobs and to have better conversation - and hopefully be able to stay longer than 15 min!  Now if only they were flexible in that they could also stay longer and help out with other jobs like finding the TV remote and the lost hearing aids.

Philippa Bond ● 1852d

"I sometimes think I'm living in a parallel universe"Is that good or bad?

David Ainsworth ● 1854d

I think, Philippa, from what I have seen of the care system for the elderly, when my time comes I would prefer to have a robot.

Martine Guy ● 1855d

I sometimes think I'm living in a parallel universe ...🤪

Sue Hammond ● 1855d

That is in England and Wales.  There is a worry that there won't be enough people to look after us in our old age.  There have been some experiments with robots helping but I think that real live people tend to be preferred although it seems that some robots can carry out some good conversations with those who are lonely.Please do watch the Chris Packham's Horizon programme and remember that our Victorian forefathers tended to have much bigger families than we do now that there is so much healthcare available and so many fewer babies and children die early.(They still do sadly but not as many.)

Philippa Bond ● 1855d

Is the need for actual human workers actually in quite rapid decline now?Then why the cry for harvest pickers?  But you may be right, in the long term.  How will the government get taxes from robots?

Ivonne Holliday ● 1856d

"i'd vote for 'keep it stable' if that was a feasible option somehow."But is it feasible? I'd say that the need for actual human workers seems to be in quite rapid decline now.

David Ainsworth ● 1856d

i'd vote for 'keep it stable' if that was a feasible option somehow.

Matt Palmer ● 1856d

It's a shame I can't set a poll on here really. The question would be something like "do you think Putney would be a better place with more residents than today" with a yes / no answer.  Repeat for Wandsworth,  London and the UK.

Alan Sherman ● 1856d

Ed. It was in the back of my mind that the birthrate was falling but I didn't check. I think I've seen some stats that women are now having their first child at a later age so this could be a temporary hiatus until the birthrate catches up with that? But I agree, birthrate is only one factor.

Michael Ixer ● 1856d

Zero population growth means we keep the same levels of population. That depends upon many factors including emigration and immigration as well as life expectancy not to mention the birth rate.Unless I'm missing something aren't we already below the replacement fertility rate?"In 2019, the TFR in England and Wales fell to 1.65 children per woman, a 2.9% decrease from 2018. TFRs have been decreasing year on year since 2013""Since 1973, the TFR in England and Wales has been below replacement level. Replacement fertility is the level of fertility required for the population to replace itself in size in the long term"https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/livebirths/bulletins/birthsummarytablesenglandandwales/2019https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_population_growth

Ed Robinson ● 1856d

It isn't just people having more or lots of children - although there are some very obvious candidates.  It is the fact that we have a growing elderly population - or did until this pandemic.  But it is not just that it our consumption in the west - or what for some strange reason is known as the first world.  I watched for the second time Chris Packham's Horizon programme tonight.  I would recommend it to everyone. We need to take a long hard look at the way we are all living and the example that we are giving to those that use far less of the world's resources. A short piece here:  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/science-environment-53753358Horizon pogramme here:https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000dl6q/horizon-2020-1-chris-packham-77-billion-people-and-counting

Philippa Bond ● 1856d

Looks like itThe UK's decision to leave the European Union (EU) means Britons owning second homes in Europe will have to limit their stays to 90 out of every 180-day period.29

Jane Carter ● 1857d

I'm sure most have family to come back to. I expect most of their family spent holiday's abroad. But does anybody on the forum know what will happen to UK residents who have holiday homes in Spain or France what will happen to their homes. Or will they be able to spend 3mnths out of 6mnths abroad.

Barbara Stevens ● 1857d

If the expats sold up in the UK years ago I suspect they won’t be able to afford to come back to the southeast, never mind London. In some quarters they are getting very little sympathy because a lot of them voted for the very Brexit that is forcing them to come home

Jonathan Callaway ● 1857d

...and who is brave enough to tell Boris?

Adam Tripp ● 1857d

We might be getting Ex Pat's coming back from Spain.

Barbara Stevens ● 1857d

Some great points made. I was mainly thinking about local (I.e up to London area). I think people will be back in offices, maybe not full time, but quite a bit. At the local level it is pretty much a housing and infrastructure question rather than birth control etc.  Although migration is a part of it.Perhaps my pondered question should be restricted to parish, council and London areas.Do we want more people in these areas?  Is the trade off an economic hit?I do think London's jobs and wealth needs to be spread around the country.  How is the hard part! I liked the Putney I moved to 15 years ago. Perhaps it is becoming too urban for me.  Maybe I'm getting old and need to move further out!

Alan Sherman ● 1857d

I think I'd want to know more about the proposals for achieving such a policy. Firstly, it may be unrealistic so it's a false promise or, secondly, they may be proposing to achieve it by some unethical or undemocratic means.

Michael Ixer ● 1857d

There have been reports of London losing nearly a million people since the pandemic started, with the Brexit effect also contributing.  Mostly younger immigrant workers from the EU and beyond who all went home.  If that's true - and the census should reveal a fuller picture - then the economy will have suffered serious long term damage.

Jonathan Callaway ● 1857d

I am not too sure that zero population growth is feasible.  For one, people complain that the UK has an ageing population and not enough young people contributing towards taxes.On the other hand, the picture of China restricting couples to only one child....  which meant the girls "died" because parents wanted boys....  Horrific!!Also, at least in the Western world, women are having babies later in life.I do not know the answer to your question. It would be terrible if my son, aged 27, were to face a future where he cannot have children.  Is the question perhaps incorrect?  What about stopping the congregation of lots of people in one place (for example, London).Hand in heart, I do not know what would be best as far as people having children.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1857d

I think forum member's might have to sleep on this one, will be interesting the answers. The more buildings, more people, more pollution, a vicious circle.

Barbara Stevens ● 1857d