Forum Topic

Freddie

Sadly had to be put down. I hope the owner is found and prosecuted. There are no bad dogs, just bad owners.

Lucille Grant ● 1836d82 Comments

Thanks Freddie I thought I was missing something.Michael I did look after the incident, the protection is not clear cut. If you look at the chart you then need to look under the specific law which mainly applies to hunting, specific areas (protected habitat) or intentional harm.

Ed Robinson ● 1824d

I think the signs were amateur ones put there on cones by concerned members of the public. Probably easily missed and certainly not enforceable.

Freddie Francis ● 1824d

Ed, looking at the you gov site seals are a protected species and it appears to be an offence to intentionally or recklessly kill, injure or takes seal. It could be argued the dogs owner was reckless letting her dog run out of control by the seal? I haven't looked in detail so it might prove a difficult case to construct ...https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/protected-marine-species/seals

Michael Ixer ● 1824d

I went for a slow cycle along the river today. It's possible I could have missed them but i didn't see any signs about keeping your dog on a lead. Has anyone seen them?I didn't sign the petition partly due to the above and partly because there didn't seem to any legal protection for the seal unless it was intentional which noone is suggesting.If there was a general petition to change the law I would be happy to sign.No sighting of the porpoise on my cycle BTW. Seeing the seal would have made a huge impression on a lot of kids especially this year.

Ed Robinson ● 1824d

Petition over 8,000 now....https://www.change.org/p/general-public-justice-for-freddie-the-seal?redirect=false

Jenny Traynor ● 1829d

Signed and shared

Jane Carter ● 1832d

I'd imagine that the relationship at home between the QC owner and Toby the Terrier will be somewhat strained and difficult for quite a long time."Hell is other people" probably includes dogs.

David Ainsworth ● 1832d

@Richard 26.3.21 23.24"All very inexplicable: it surely can't be because the ownwr was a QC and an Important Person?"That is exactly why she has been let off and everybody knows it. 😡

Sue Hammond ● 1832d

We bred dogs to fight against bulls and bears historically. It still is a sport in some parts of the world today.

David Ainsworth ● 1832d

It would seem that (at least some) seals are protected species, unlike rabbits, etc. I'm not sure how a negligence is considered with regards to harming a protected species but the dog certainly wasn't under control.https://marinedevelopments.blog.gov.uk/2016/08/11/seals-protected-illegal-touch-feed/

Michael Ixer ● 1832d

in the countryside dogs regularly chase rabbits and rats and occasionally catch them and kill them, so as a seal is considered a wild animal one could argue that its status is no different. However, what troubles me about this case is that a medium size dog attacked an animal several times it size and weight without fear. Punishment (or not) for the owner is debatable but I feel the dog must be put down.

Adam Tripp ● 1832d

Signed and shared.

Lucille Grant ● 1832d

So sorry Caroline, but your always right, we won't forget that will we.

Barbara Stevens ● 1832d

"But I'm sure the woman ran". In fairness Barbara the owner of the dog did leave the scene with the dog, having given her name to the vet who was tending the seal. I'm not sure that she could have acheived anything by staying.

Caroline Whitehead ● 1832d

Michael, I actually read that Freddie, head butted the man as Freddie was struggling. But then I feel sorry for Freddie he probably wondered what was happening and in great pain. Freddie can't actually run away he could do nothing for himself. But I'm sure the woman ran.

Barbara Stevens ● 1832d

Having skimmed some articles on the dangerous dogs act I don't think the seal is protected by it. I've also seen one report that suggested the seal not the attacking dog bit a rescuer - perhaps no way of verifying that? It probably rests on how threatened by the dog those rescuing the seal felt  - and how likely the police considered they might get a successful conviction. One wonders how much having access to good legal advice would influence that police decision ...With regard to Richmond Park, the deer may be classed as livestock and aren't there local by-laws concerning dogs and the deer?

Michael Ixer ● 1833d

I think that the deer in Richmond Park are owned, rather than wild.Anyway, more so than "British fish" are British owned.

David Ainsworth ● 1833d

Not sure how accurate it is, but I read somewhere that it was because it was a wild and not a domestic animal. But that hardly seems likely, given that dog owners have been fined when dear Fido has attacked a deer in Richmond Park  - and in any case the brute in ths case also bit a person. All very inexplicable: it surely can't have been because the ownwr was a QC and an Important Person?

Richard Carter ● 1833d

Jenny,Thank you for the link and I signed the petition.  Let us hope it results in a positive outcome!

Ivonne Holliday ● 1833d

Signed. At the very least the police might explain why they're not prosecuting this case ...

Michael Ixer ● 1833d

@JennyThankyou for the link, I have just signed the petition.

Sue Hammond ● 1833d

This petition is runninghttps://www.change.org/p/general-public-justice-for-freddie-the-seal

Jenny Traynor ● 1833d

If any of us had been so selfish as to walk a dog known to attack randomly (which she did) and so hard hearted as to walk away leaving the little seal to die (which she did with alacrity) we would have been prosecuted.This woman should pay a hefty fine, be banned from keeping animals for life and prosecuted. If she isnt its because the law is not equal for everyone in this country.  Never has been and this is a shameful spotlight on that fact.

Jenny Featherstone ● 1833d

Oh well, at least she will have learnt some sort of lesson, plus calling in a hotshot legal firm will have also cost her some money, unless it was a mutual favour. More valuably, perhaps some hundreds of thousands of doglovers may, at least temporarily, have learnt to put their beloved pets on a lead, or in a muzzle, and others may even consider whether they are the right people who should even get a dog.We have all been reminded of how little our modern world values the natural world. So it goes.

David Ainsworth ● 1833d

Sadly, according to yesterday's news, it appears no action is being taken against the irresponsible owner of the dog.

David Armstrong ● 1833d

No emotional intelligence. Totally driven by instinct. (The owner).

David Ainsworth ● 1834d

Poor Freddie was just laying there doing nothing. I can still see his eye's looking so worried. This was a horrible thing to happen. The woman thought it would all blow over and it didn't. It was a shame Freddie had to be put down and couldn't have been kept at a seal sanctuary instead of put back out in the wild again, then it would have been fed.

Barbara Stevens ● 1835d

I instinctively hate animals being destroyed but in this instance I agree with you Helen. The fine wouldn't hurt the woman as she is clearly well-off but a conviction would and I hope the police do the right thing.

Sue Hammond ● 1835d

Her statement read like a PR release after a corporate failure. Surprised the lawyers couldn't see the difference between Cliff's case and hers where, irrespective of the legal position, damage was inflicted on the poor seal in a public place.

Michael Ixer ● 1835d

Her statement read like a PR release after a corporate failure. Surprised the lawyers couldn't see the difference between Cliff's case and hers where, irrespective of the legal position, damage was inflicted on the poor seal in a public place.

Michael Ixer ● 1835d

Thankyou John. The arrogance of this woman! 🤬 Her attempt to bully the press into silence didn't work and this will damage her reputation even more.  GOOD!"Before getting sympathetic coverage in the Evening Standard this afternoon, Rebecca Sabben-Clare QC instructed lawyers Schillings to bully the media into not naming her. She cited the Cliff Richard case to invoke a supposed right-to-privacy in an attempt to keep her name out of the story. Sabben-Clare had let her dog off its leash and it attacked and mauled the ten-month old seal pup that had become known as “Freddie Mercury” for its entertaining nature. The seal was put down as a result of its injuries.Rebecca Sabbren-Clare set legal dogs Schillings on the press yesterday afternoon to try and cover-up her name, when that didn’t work after the Mail Online named her, Rebecca Sabben-Clare switched tactics and cooperated with a soft-soap PR puff piece telling the Standard:I am heartbroken by this terrible accident. As an animal lover, I fully understand the dismay that has been expressed. I apologise unreservedly for what happened. In hindsight I wish, of course, that the dog had been on a lead but at the time that did not seem necessary.Yet another example of the rich and powerful trying it on with lawyers to muzzle the press. Shame Rebecca Sabben-Clare QC didn’t muzzle her dog. Didn’t work and Schillings have lost again…

Sue Hammond ● 1835d

Doesn’t read well does it. She’s not winning the sympathy vote. Perhaps a few well heeled animal lovers could start a private prosecution. Better find good lawyers though, and get them to work pro bono.

Jonathan Callaway ● 1835d

All this "I am heartbroken", "in hindsight I wish" and "I apologise unreservedly" sounds like self-pity from the owner whose behaviour and inaction caused the whole tragic matter.  The dog is clearly dangerous and should be put down, the owner is reckless and should be prosecuted and fined and should also be banned for life from keeping dogs.

Helen Passey ● 1835d

https://order-order.com/2021/03/24/qc-owner-of-seal-killing-dog-claimed-right-to-privacy/

John Geoffries ● 1835d

"A very professional apology"Indeed, one which seems to make the apologiser appear rather like a third party in this affair, rather than the central responsible person, unless I mistake the situation."“As an animal lover, I fully understand the dismay that has been expressed. I apologise unreservedly FOR WHAT HAPPENED."How about "I apologise unreservedly for what I allowed to happen"? "In hindsight I wish, of course, THAT THE DOG HAD BEEN ON A LEAD but at the time that did not seem necessary."How about "I wish, of course, that I had put the dog on the lead."?“I left for my own safety and that of my dog". THEIR own safety? Having caused mayhem?

David Ainsworth ● 1835d

The dog is a Patterdale terrier which is a working breed much valued by the country set for its ruthless despatch of foxes and rats. They will take on anything and are notorious cat killers. Should not have been off the lead in the vicinity of the seal. A very professional apology, as you might expect, but the owner is probably 'heartbroken' that her picture has been splashed all over the papers

Jane O'Callaghan ● 1835d

I think a witch hunt is a bad thing.  However I do believe that this woman should be charged because the dog did appear to be dangerous, out of control and indeed did bite someone (in addition to the seal).  Evidence, trial, and punishment should follow as an example and hopefully get the message out about dog control.If the MET don't take this further then it does send out a poor message about consequences for actions.  Because the suspect is a QC it does look incredibly bad, especially in light of recent issues with with Police.It also seems at odds with the recent conviction for the deer attack in Richmond Park (which the guy did plead guilty and accept the fine IIRC).I fully accept that the lady didn't go out to harm the seal, and feels bad.  I dare say that speeding drivers that crash and injure / kill people don't intend that outcome either.If convicted the punishment is likely to be a fine that she can afford.  The more lasting effect would be requiring to declare it on job applications, insurance forms etc etc.  The association with her name will be on the internet for a long time too.Inaction can have criminal consequences.

Alan Sherman ● 1835d

I agree Jane.

Sue Hammond ● 1835d

I dont think anyone here seriously supports a witch-hunt  but the dog is surely a potential danger to other animals and small children so should, at least, be rehomed with  someone who can train it properly.

Jane Carter ● 1835d

I disagree with Gabrielle.  The following is copied from gov.uk:"It’s against the law to let a dog be dangerously out of control anywhere, such as:*in a public placein a private place, for example a neighbour’s house or gardenin the owner’s homeThe law applies to all dogs.Some types of dogs are banned.Out of controlYour dog is considered *dangerously out of control if it:*injures someonemakes someone worried that it might injure themA court could also decide that your dog is dangerously out of control if either of the following apply:it attacks someone’s animalthe owner of an animal thinks they could be injured if they tried to stop your dog attacking their animal"Obviously Freddie wasn't a pet or livestock so most of these conditions do not apply to this matter.  However I read that the dog bit the person who stepped in to try and stop the attack so "in a public place" > "dangerously out of control" > "injures someone" are all relevant to this incident?

Sue Hammond ● 1835d

Yes Gabrielle spot on

Andy Pike ● 1835d

"I am heartbroken by this terrible accident.'As an animal lover, I fully understand the dismay that has been expressed. I apologise unreservedly for what happened. In hindsight I wish, of course, that the dog had been on a lead but at the time that did not seem necessary.'I am hugely grateful to all those who helped at the scene. They were heroic. I left for my own safety and that of my dog, believing that there was nothing that I could do to help as the seal was being looked after by a vet and help had been called. I offered my contact details to the vet before leaving.  The RSPCA interviewed me and confirmed that they were happy that no offence had been committed. I tried to contact the police again repeatedly yesterday afternoon, in response to a statement from them that they wished to identify me and speak to me. They have still not been in contact.'I have made a donation to the Wildlife Hospital which treated the seal. What wonderful work it does."Ultimately this is not a witch hunt.... It's not her fault that a fine cannot exist for wild animal (and it has to be livestock). She's made a donation which is what people wanted her to do. We now just have to let it be and not make her into another victim of MSM

Gabrielle OMahony ● 1835d

I wonder if the helper that was bitten can pursue a civil case.

Alan Sherman ● 1835d

Perhaps the Bar Council could rap her over the knuckles or solicitors stop sending her business.I think there may be come countries where you have to muzzle your dog outside, but I don't know which.

Elizabeth Balsom ● 1835d

Apparently (from an article on dogs killing deer in Richmond Park) “It’s illegal for a dog to chase deer in Richmond and Bushy Parks, and owners may face prosecution if caught.”Perhaps a seal on the Thames shore is not anyone's possession, and is thus not protected. I wonder what would happen if someone had killed the dog which was attacking the seal, before it had done mortal damage to the seal. The dog does have an owner.

David Ainsworth ● 1835d

Perhaps this explains the attitude of some parts of society towards the police? Given the high profile of this incident it might be helpful of the police to issue a statement as to why no crime was committed?

Michael Ixer ● 1835d

A stinging truth and reality, unfortunately.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1835d

Well she wasn't wearing a hoodie or a baseball cap.

David Ainsworth ● 1835d

What happened to muzzles, perhaps now dog owner's who know their dog could bite should buy for when their dog is off the lead.

Barbara Stevens ● 1836d

I wonder what happened to this:https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-publicI also understood that it is legal to walk your dog off the lead but it is illegal if it is out of control.  I wonder how the latter translates into Freddie's situation - was the dog really under control?

Ivonne Holliday ● 1836d

"she is not the sort plod will want to pursue the book will be closed tomorrow."Sadly you seem to have been proved right John.  No charge.  Our judicial system stinks sometimes.  Looking after one of its own?

Sue Hammond ● 1836d

Apparently the RSPCA and police have told her she hasn't committed a crime.

Lucille Grant ● 1836d

Some barristers seem to have criminal records, I'm not sure about QCs. John, surely you're not  suggesting the Old Bill might show favouritism to our learned friends? (At least no Covid rules were broken as I'm sure if was an exercise walk rather than a vigil ...)  A very sad and easily avoidable incident. https://www.legalcheek.com/2017/05/exclusive-there-are-16000-barristers-currently-practising-just-110-have-criminal-convictions/

Michael Ixer ● 1836d

The RSPCA presumably won't bring a private prosecution (think it has stopped those now) and as she is not the sort plod will want to pursue the book will be closed tomorrow.

John Geoffries ● 1836d

Should the question be:Can you be a QC once convicted of a crime.We shall have to wait and see.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1836d

Can one be a QC if convicted of a crime?

Alan Sherman ● 1836d

No, I do not think it is the hang 'em flog 'em brigade.  It surprises me no end that she appears to have been so quiet.As a QC she must know the law (and hopefully she has learnt a lesson about controlling her dog?) and, above all, she much know the meaning of expressing pain and/or remorse?Perhaps I am dreaming!

Ivonne Holliday ● 1836d

She gave her name to a vet that was involved at the time. At least that’s what I heard. A QC? The hang ‘em flog ‘em brigade might want to be a bit circumspect with their comments. 😏

Freddie Francis ● 1836d

I agree Bill, desperately sad about Freddie, virtually unforgivable.  What surprises me is that she was not at all proactive about this.  She may have been in shock, agreed, but not issue a statement at least?We do not know if she was named by others or if she put her hand up.  But makes you wonder if she knows the law.....We shall have to wait and see.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1836d

Time for self -reflection. Such a shame about Freddie;  I asked myself a few questions. Would I ever walk a dog along the towpath off the lead? (yes I have), Would I ever walk a dog that is known to attack other animals, off the lead along the tow-path,? (no I wouldn't). Is it possible that I hadn't heard about the seal before I set off on my walk that day? (Unlikely)

Bill Christie ● 1836d

Oh, wow!!!  A QC!  Pffff.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1836d

She has been named and is a QC who lives locally to Hammersmith Bridge.

Lucille Grant ● 1836d

The pictures are very clear too. Hopefully someone will recognise the stupid b1tch and dob her in. https://mol.im/a/9392831

Sue Hammond ● 1836d

The Daily Mail has posted a picture of the woman supposed to be the owner.

John Geoffries ● 1836d

Hi Sue, most of the Uk's 10 million dogs manage not to viciously attack other dogs, humans or other animals every day, so for the tiny number that cant control the "instinct", bye bye Toto. You're quite right though, if the dog was on a lead being controlled by the owner, it wouldn't have been able to attack, however I have no doubt it would have been pulling very hard on the lead to get to the seal...the nature of the beast. If the dog had killed or seriously injured a child, would you want it to have a 2nd chance?

Adam Tripp ● 1836d

@Adam"Why on earth should a dog be given a second chance?"Why shouldn't it?  Humans who attack are given another chance and they know what they are doing is wrong. A dog acts purely on instinct and doesn't know any different, its the irresponsible owners that are at fault for not controlling their dogs properly.

Sue Hammond ● 1836d

"Perhaps the dog licence should be brought back?"Indeed and don't make it cheap. Seeing as how dogs injure more people than cyclists do, I should suggest that all owners pass a test before being allowed to own a dog. I will not suggest numberplates front and back for dogs, or even owners, but it might have helped identify the owner of the seal-killing dog.

David Ainsworth ● 1836d

I didn't realise it had gone.

Sue Hammond ● 1836d

"There are just over 10 millions dogs in the UK"And think of the annual meat consumption.

David Ainsworth ● 1836d

I respectfully disagree, of course it's the dog's fault. There are just over 10 millions dogs in the UK, the vast majority of which are well looked after and very well behaved, the tiny, tiny number of dogs that viciously attack a human or an animal should be put down without delay. Why on earth should a dog be given a second chance?

Adam Tripp ● 1836d

I agree with both of you but I think the dog should be put down, not because it was his ‘fault’ but because it’s clearly a danger to other animals and, as Adam says, could attack a small child. There seems to have been an explosion of dog owning during this last year by people who dont have the necessary experience to train their animals’ Perhaps the dog licence should be brought back?

Jane Carter ● 1836d

I agree Sue. It isn't ever the  dog's fault. It is the owner's.

Lucille Grant ● 1836d

I would rather put down the stupid owner and rehome the dog with somebody responsible. Wishful thinking ...

Sue Hammond ● 1836d

https://metro.co.uk/2021/03/23/freddie-the-seal-dies-after-dog-attack-by-the-thames-14288414/doesnt look like a terrier to me, with regard to responsibility, it seems to me that if a dog can do that to a seal pup it could also do it to a small child - fine the owner and put down the dog imho

Adam Tripp ● 1836d

I remember being in Richmond Park years ago. My friends and I were sitting on a bench near some water where a swan family was swimming. Suddenly a young black Labrador rushed into the water. The cob was not best pleased. The owners seemed disinclined to call off their dog. As for putting it on a lead, dear me no. Dogs will want to run around and chase things, it's in their nature. There are long leads which give them considerable freedom and which enable the owner to rein them in when necessary. Why on earth won't owners put their dogs on leads Poor seal. At least the wildlife centre did their best for it so it was cared for in its last hours.

Elizabeth Balsom ● 1836d

It doesn't matter which breed of dog causes harm to wild life. In most cases it is their natural instinct to hunt. It is all dog owners responsibility to control their dogs by keeping them on the leash or muzzling them if necessary when walking near wildlife. I have owned two dogs and am a dog lover but in no way would mine have been free to roam as so many irresponsible owners are allowing.

Lucille Grant ● 1836d

It wasn’t a staffie or a bull terrier. It was a smaller reddish wire haired terrier  It’s clear in some blow ups of the incident.

Freddie Francis ● 1836d

No, I don't blame the dog. I blame us. I don't think that owners should buy such dogs, but, as they are allowed to buy them, they should not let them off the lead nor own them in urban areas. Dachshunds are claimed to be very aggressive dogs, but the seal would likely have survived an attack by one.

David Ainsworth ● 1836d

'We' may have made them but it is the owner's responsibility to control them. I don't blame the dog.

Lucille Grant ● 1836d

Poor Freddie.😢Such a beautiful creature that lost its life due to a stupid irresponsible dog owner. 🤬

Sue Hammond ● 1836d

If it was a bull terrier as suggested then, as I understand it, it is a breed produced in order to fight and win. We made them.

David Ainsworth ● 1836d

It's dreadful, so sad it's also on front page of the forum. A couple of people who came to the rescue had been bitten as well. Very upsetting they put the seal down.

Barbara Stevens ● 1836d