Forum Topic

EUtopia gets it wrong again with the vaccine

Increasing numbers of countries ceasing to use the oxford jab.Strong scientific evidence ?noHave a dig at us? Almost certainly With a third wave hitting mainland Europe they seem unable to help themselves.At least they wont be trying to stop us getting our share as once again they seem not to want our help.Vive le difference !!

Andy Pike ● 1869d57 Comments

This one is going to run and run.

David Ainsworth ● 1864d

Sue. I was noting the current status - which I believe corresponds with government statements. There have been various threats from the EU but we will have to wait and see what happens in the future - I believe the UK and US are also unlikely to export vaccines while they still need them for their own population. Anyway, the EU's bigger problem at present seems to be getting vaccines accepted ... 

Michael Ixer ● 1864d

@Michael 20.3.21 16.00"Sue. As noted earlier in ths thread the reduced quantity of AZ vaccine is for two reasons: (1) a batch has to be retested and (2) a delay in delivery of a batch manufactured in India. Pfizer have reported no problems with deliveries."Michael I realise that in your eyes the EU can do no wrong but please take off your rose coloured specs and see that Brussels is now doing its damnedest to disrupt or even stop the AZ vaccine, or elements essential to the production of the vaccine, from reaching the UK.  Retesting one batch of the AZ vaccine is a relatively small measure and would not interfere with our rollout.  You say that Pfizer deliveries are not being affected, I would add the proviso 'yet' because the President of the EU Commission continues to issue threats, so how long will it be before Brussels threatens to stop Pfizer exports too?DM:20th MarchUrsula von der Leyen threatens to halt exports of vaccineshttps://mol.im/a/938349121st MarchEU doubles down on threat to block Covid vaccine exports to the UKhttps://mol.im/a/9385681To stave off shouts of DM bias ! Aljezeera:20th March"Ursula von der Leyen has threatened to halt exports of AstraZeneca vaccines if the EU does not receive its deliveries first, in a worsening row over delayed shipments that has caused international tensions.The EU chief told the British-Swedish pharmaceutical company it has to come through on deliveries to the bloc or it would block exports of jabs made on its turf. In an interview with Germany's Funke media group she said: 'We have the option of banning a planned export."

Sue Hammond ● 1864d

The French do it, even the Israelis do it, the USA do it several times in one term, the UK just don't!The UK has a very poor history when it comes to holding anyone accountable. This will be no different!

Ed Robinson ● 1865d

Andy, you’re right that it will be difficult to prove an individual case or even a class action case against anyone in govt so the legal focus may be against individual NHS doctors or hospitals. But that won’t stop people (and lawyers) trying.

Jonathan Callaway ● 1865d

Then take off the ones who caught the disease breaking lockdown , or refuse to wear masks, or have been out blocking the streets in a protest about one thing or another.I'd have thought to win a case you would have to have a direct line to causation, something I'd suggest is almost impossible to prove.

Andy Pike ● 1865d

But what 20,000? The ones without underlying illness or the ones under 60? Or the ones killed in accidents who happened to have a positive test 28 days beforehand?

Andy Pike ● 1865d

"what would you say was an acceptable number?"A year ago "Sir Patrick [Vallance] also said keeping the number of coronavirus deaths in the UK at '20,000 and below' would be a 'good outcome' but still 'horrible'." (Daily Mail 17th March 2021). So something a little less than 6 times horrible might be acceptable?

David Ainsworth ● 1865d

And what ones of the 126,000 are they responsible for in a pandemic? Would you therefore also make them responsible for the millions world wide ? Or should all national leaders be tried ?Of course if Captain hindsight had been in charge there would have been zero deaths? If no what would you say was an acceptable number ?

Andy Pike ● 1865d

Legal correction - the QC suggested "gross negligence manslaughter".  Civil cases against either the govt or the NHS may soon be seen.

Jonathan Callaway ● 1865d

"However if Ursula Whotsit stops playing her reckless political games by threatening to block vaccine exports from Europe to the UK"Hang on, I thought that the EU were too stupid to be selfish? Now you are accusing them of threatening to be selfish.Why doesn't the UK respond to the EU's threat to block vaccine exports from Europe to the UK, by threatening to block vaccine exports from the UK to Europe?Ummm?

David Ainsworth ● 1865d

The UK response to the pandemic will be subject to a public enquiry, at a time of the govt's choosing, i.e. not for a long time yet.Meanwhile a new book has just been published, called "Failures of State: The Inside Story of Britain’s Battle with Coronavirus".  It's by Jonathan Calvert and George Arbuthnott, both Sunday Times Insight team journalists.The reviews suggest it has done the public enquiry's job for it though nearly all the quotes they have gleaned are anonymous - thanks to the usual fears about the fate of whistleblowers in govt and in the NHS.It should prove a fascinating read!  A QC was on the radio yesterday suggesting Johnson et al could be guilty of culpable homicide.  I suspect that is one case that will never happen though there are 126,000 sets of relatives who might take a different view.

Jonathan Callaway ● 1865d

Sue. As noted earlier in ths thread the reduced quantity of AZ vaccine is for two reasons: (1) a batch has to be retested and (2) a delay in delivery of a batch manufactured in India. Pfizer have reported no problems with deliveries.

Michael Ixer ● 1865d

@Ed 12.37I believe the under 50's rollout has been suspended because of a possible slowdown of vaccine supplies from Europe. The people who were vaccinated in January will be due their second jab in April and because efficacy is time critical they will have to be given priority for now.  However if Ursula Whotsit stops playing her reckless political games by threatening to block vaccine exports from Europe to the UK this temporary halt to the vaccine rollout can be reversed.

Sue Hammond ● 1865d

"But that the EU were too stupid to even manage to think ahead and be selfish?That sums it up perfectly David.

Sue Hammond ● 1865d

"The others would have done exactly the same, had they thought about it."So, you are saying that we were right to be selfish, because the EU would have been selfish too, if they had thought of it. But that the EU were too stupid to even manage to think ahead and be selfish?

David Ainsworth ● 1865d

It's also important that if we keep a policy of ensuing all in the UK are vaccinated before we assist others then we maintain the ban on all but essential travel and keep in place rigorous quarantine standards for those returning from essential travel. Probably no foreign holidays until 2022?

Michael Ixer ● 1865d

Interesting that the UK has delayed the roll for under 50's and several EU countries has approved the use of the Oxford vaccine for over 55's.Completely unrelated events of course but it is a funny old world!

Ed Robinson ● 1865d

My understanding was that Oxford refused to go with Merz as they would not agree to sell at cost price to other 3rd world nations. And if we did protect our orders etc well done the Govt for looking after us 1st. The others would have done exactly the same, had they thought about it.

Andy Pike ● 1865d

Dave Keating, a respected independent US journalist based in Brussels, has posted a series of tweets on the vaccine debate. The link starts here: https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1372897635577761803It's an instructive alternative analysis and what has happened and why.His view is that vaccine nationalism, first started by Trump, was followed by the UK who made sure the Oxford vaccine was supplied to the UK first by making access to the Oxford research conditional on preferential supply.  Oxford were to have teamed up with Merck (a US firm) but that was blocked by Hancock due to concerns that Merck would be banned from exporting the product back to the UK from their US factories.His view also is that the EU was naive when negotiating with AZ, Pfizer and others, by not restricting exports out of the EU when it was clear the UK and the US would do just that.But there is a simple bottom line - nobody is truly safe until everyone is vaccinated, whichever country they live in.  So all this just hampers international cooperation in the midst of a global pandemic.

Jonathan Callaway ● 1865d

"Warning: reading about nanodrop may cause time loss and headaches and extreme boredom!"I just googled it and you're right Ed. 😴

Sue Hammond ● 1865d

I guess some people do not believe drug companies:The British drugmaker said on Monday that the vaccine could be around 90% effective when administered as a half-dose followed by a full dose a month later, citing data from late-stage trials in Britain and Brazil. “The reason we had the half-dose is serendipity,” Mene Pangalos, the head of AstraZeneca’s non-oncology research and development, told Reuters.I think it was reported and confirmed. Warning: reading about nanodrop may cause time loss and headaches and extreme boredom!https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-astrazeneca-oxford/decades-of-work-and-half-a-dose-of-fortune-drove-oxford-vaccine-success-idUSKBN2832NC?edition-redirect=in

Ed Robinson ● 1865d

"Not sure how setting up a vaccines task force, funding vaccine research , taking the lead on ordering vaccines some months ahead of others and rolling it out swiftly to 50% of the population can be called a stroke of luck"Of course it wasn't a stroke of luck and it is idiotic of MW to imply that it is.  However if the wondrous EU had been as 'lucky' no doubt he would be lauding it a fantastic success.

Sue Hammond ● 1865d

"Not sure how setting up a vaccines task force, funding vaccine research , taking the lead on ordering vaccines some months ahead of others and rolling it out swiftly to 50% of the population can be called a stroke of luck"Of course it wasn't a stroke of luck and it is idiotic of MW to imply that it is.  However if the wondrous EU had been as 'lucky' no doubt he would be lauding it a fantastic success.

Sue Hammond ● 1865d

Not sure how setting up a vaccines task force, funding vaccine research , taking the lead on ordering vaccines some months ahead of others and rolling it out swiftly to 50% of the population can be called a stroke of luck.We have made mistakes in the last year but should give credit where it's due when it's due.

Andy Pike ● 1865d

Thank you Michael x 2 for returning the thread to some sort of sanity.I had my Oxford AstraZeneca vaccine on friday not because it may be 100% safe but because as with all vaccines the benefits outweigh any potential extremely small risk.These are still relatively new vaccines and more data will come in time. I listened to an interview with a UK doctor who explained the situation regarding the recent concerns honestly and respectfully.As with everything transparency is key and as a pro vaccine person I find the discussion on potential side effects actually reassuring - but that could just be me!

Ed Robinson ● 1865d

The level of understanding of Europe and of the EU on this site is simply pathetic.The EU is not responsible for the health services of its member states, any more than it was responsible for the NHS when we were a member.The EU is not responsible for vaccine roll-outs in each EU country. Neither is it to blame for vaccine hesitancy in individual countries. Nor even for stupid things said by Emmanuel Macron - any more than it was responsible for stupid things said by Boris Johnson/Theresa May/David Cameron/Tony Blair/Margaret Thatcher when we were a member.The EU DID take a role in vaccine procurement. This has not gone well. It signed similar contracts to us with both AZ and Pfizer/Biontech. We seem to have got far more doses per capita out of this for the time being than countries in the EU. AZ has supplied us in preference to EU countries. Millions of doses from Pfizer/Biontech and AZ have left the EU and come here (and to other countries) whereas no doses have left here to go anywhere else. I don't know about anyone else but I think from a nationalist point of view, it would be safer to keep our heads down over this - the more we draw attention to it, the more likely it is someone will notice our unfair advantage and do something about it.Meanwhile how is Brexit going? Really badly. Exports are way down, much more than due to Covid. I can see why the Telegraph and other idiots want to point to the one stroke of luck we have had (not something clever we have done, not something beneficial for the long term, but short term luck). However, it really is pathetic.

Michael Winstanley ● 1865d

" dont know but it seems we made mistakes at the front end of the pandemic and they are seemingly making them at the back end."Andy by front end do you mean last year or this year when kids went back to school for one day?Tha failures have been continuous through all lockdowns. Test, trace and isolate policies are still a shambles!Opposition also was a shambles during most of last year and patchy at best!

Ed Robinson ● 1865d

Mr Carter'I don't think any government has said the vaccine is useless or dangerous'.Er Macron ?'Emmanuel Macron claimed that the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine was "quasi-ineffective" for over-65s, just hours before it was approved for use on all adults in the EU'. The Independent.Now, doubtless with Macron's approval -'FRANCE has made ANOTHER U-turn declaring the AstraZeneca vaccine is safe - but only for those over the age of 55.Regulators have recommended young people avoid the jab due to blood clot risks, just days after telling them it was safe.' The Sun

John Hawkes ● 1866d

Ivonne. Looking at this report Pfizer don't anticipate any delivery problems for its UK commitment. The issues with the  AstraZeneca vaccine appears to be a combination of having to retest a batch and and delays receiving one from India. I thought the EU AstraZeneca requirements were produced there rather than being imported from the UK or elsewhere but I could be wrong.https://www.itv.com/news/2021-03-18/fears-of-delays-to-lockdown-easing-amid-constrained-vaccine-supplies

Michael Ixer ● 1866d

Thank you Michael.Yes, I did see Matt's posts in the other thread which were very clear in a way.  It would be interesting to know if the Pfizer vaccine is having similar "production issues".  Do you happen to know how many doses of AstraZeneca were in fact exported to the EU?  Or was the AstraZeneca vaccine supplied to the EU in fact produced there?

Ivonne Holliday ● 1867d

Just been announced as safe and effective.  Will Macron apologise for his scaremongering?

Sue Hammond ● 1867d

It takes all sorts of clots to make the EU

Andy Pike ● 1867d

If I remember correctly, someone posted on the Forum about how marvellous she was and praised her sophistication, so she isn’t just a clot, she is a sophisticated clot.

Martine Guy ● 1867d

"I hear the clot has been namedThe Von der Leyen"She's a disaster.  However I expect she will hang on to her job until the EU vaccine debacle calms down.  Then she will be blamed for the whole fiasco and be sacked.  Again.  The EU's current useful idiot.

Sue Hammond ● 1867d

I wouldn't like to have to make the decision to pause or not, but I suppose it might depend on the details of one's rollout plan and which groups one is targeting initially.  Matt posted something about AZ supply issues on the other thread, it does seem to revolve around issues in India but the details seem uncle.

Michael Ixer ● 1867d

Thank you Michael.I totally agree that the number of cases is incredibly small and that the chances of catching COVID are exponentially greater.  But what I found chilling was the description of the type of clots and internal haemorrhaging.Are the EU Member States that have halted the vaccine wrong in doing so?  I do not know, I am not a scientist.The WHO has stressed it is important to roll out the vaccine and the EMA will pronounce itself today.On a related matter, do you happen to know what the "supply issues" or shortfalls are?  Headlines today "India shortfall a factor in UK's supply delay".  Are these supply issues similar to the ones AstraZeneca had initially that led to the tit-for-tat with the EU?

Ivonne Holliday ● 1867d

Ivonne. One has to put it into perspective. The number of cases are very, very small and the risks from catching Covid are significant. There was a German (I think MEP) being interviewed on BBC TV news this morning who stated that they German authorities were taking this seriously because although the number of cases wasn't statistically significant it was the fact it affected a cluster of young women. Probably not something that would appear in the UK given the demographics of those being targeted for vaccinations; also, I suspect, nothing for the typical contributor to this forum to worry about? 

Michael Ixer ● 1867d

I hear the clot has been namedThe Von der Leyen

Andy Pike ● 1867d

Hello Michael,That is an excellent article!It is quite sobering to read that the clots they refer to are not related to the stroke or blood clot. The description of the clot they refer to is really chilling!

Ivonne Holliday ● 1867d

wrong thread, sorry!

Matt Palmer ● 1867d

"However, there is confusion over the source of the delay with a Government source blaming a range of 'production issues'. The source revealed that this included the need to re-test a large batch of the vaccine, although they did not specify from which manufacturer.  They also suggested there was an issue with AstraZeneca's production overseas, resulting in fewer jabs being delivered in April than initially planned. This was backed up by another government source that claimed the shortages were related to the late delivery of five million doses of the AstraZeneca jab being manufactured in India.  The Serum Institute was due to send 10 million doses to the UK - yet only half have arrived."So nothing to do with the EU then.

Matt Palmer ● 1867d

Paul. What's your evidence for stating it's political? Although minuscule in terms of a proportion of those given the AZ vaccine, the blood clots appear to be of an abnormal type which is apparently why they've been flagged up. It appears they are being ultra careful and there are disagreements between scientists on whether they should have paused the vaccination programme:https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/03/it-s-very-special-picture-why-vaccine-safety-experts-put-brakes-astrazeneca-s-covid-19

Michael Ixer ● 1867d

They are denying their people access to a vaccine for political reasons. No mention of any Pfizer problems. Funny that.Or the fact that their population will die as a result. I suppose you would love to live in the EU as it fiddles while Rome burns.

Paul Rolink ● 1867d

I don't think any government has said the vaccine is useless or dangerous, just that they are following the precautionary principle (unnecessarily in my view,  but that's their decision).

Richard Carter ● 1868d

'EU countries are being over-cautious, but for a reason.'You don't address vaccine hesitancy by telling your population that the vaccines on offer are useless or even dangerous.

Frances Clarke ● 1868d

Share price up 3.17% today

Elizabeth Balsom ● 1869d

I dont know but it seems we made mistakes at the front end of the pandemic and they are seemingly making them at the back end.Maybe you could argue mistakes were inevitable when dealing with the relative unknown but not at this stage.I hope we dont open until early and stick to the road map as a minimum.

Andy Pike ● 1869d

Do you think they will catch up with the UK's death rate, measured in deaths per million of the population?

Jonathan Callaway ● 1869d

It seems like a "moral panic", but among experts this time. It will not be easy for AZ to recover reputation. Not that they can fulfill their orders currently anyway, so it may even up supply and demand.

David Ainsworth ● 1869d

Yeh good point and every day they whip another member to join them.So glad we are not in this gang. One wonders if they carry on what the final death tolls will be per 000 at the end of the marathon.

Andy Pike ● 1869d

Excellent point, Michael.

Richard Carter ● 1869d

The main point is that whether it's because of politics, over caution, bureaucratic procedures - or perhaps there is a small risk - it's decisions made by individual countries not the EU that has paused the AZ rollout in specific countries.  

Michael Ixer ● 1869d

One factor in this is the politics of global pharma - AZ pledged to sell their vaccine at cost, conspicuously unlike Pfizer or any other manufacturer so far.  That was not a popular decision in the Pfizer boardroom.AZ, let's remember is not just "British".  It was formed from a merger of the British company Zeneca (ex ICI) and the Swedish company Astra.  It is led by a Frenchman.  It has multiple factories in the EU as well as the UK.It has made mistakes on the PR front but the EU collective approach (opted out of by a few of the remaining 27, by the way) has proved disastrous.  And now the regulators (not, initially anyway, the politicians) are raising doubts, based on extreme caution rather than proven fact.Another factor is that much reporting in the UK has been done through the prism of Brexit.  For some papers anything happening in Europe is bad and anything happening here must therefore be good.  That is dangerously simplistic at the best of times and serves only the avid Brexiteer camp who feel that uncritical support for our hard Brexit government is essential to protect the Brexit "project".  At least, that's my take on things.As always, determining the truth gets more difficult as too many people with agendas of their own pile in.

Jonathan Callaway ● 1869d

Of course this is politics.  If the WHO, the European Vaccine and our own MHRA have approved this vaccine but without any clear clinical evidence Europe have refused this vaccine.  France and Germany have upcoming elections along with financial headaches.  Europe has another wave charging through it with unvaccinated population.  One European professor has said by not giving the vaccine they are responsible for more deaths.Looks like we will all be spending our furloughed cash on holiday in the UK this year.

Robert Wheeler ● 1869d

Even I as a remainer have to raise my eyebrows at the EU's take on the Oxford AZ vaccine.  There are more cases of blood clots from Pfizer than AZ. Even if there have been a small number surely more will likely die from contracting CoVid?I'm waiting to see what the conclusion is for the latest investigations but it doesn't seem to make sense to me?

Gabrielle OMahony ● 1869d

You leavers can't seem to get over the fact that you won the referendum - nearly five years ago now - and still you indulge in your silly sneers at the EU!EU countries are being over-cautious, but for a reason. There is so much vaccination hesitancy in many EU countries: in France, for example, only just over 50% would be willing to be vaccinated (https://bit.ly/3cFt5vQ). We may well think this is daft (I certainly do), but governments have to step carefully if such widespread attitudes are to be countered so the vaccine is to be taken up effectively. As for their "trying to stop us getting our share," you must know that's nonsense, as even when we were in the EU we had the freedom to order as needed. But never mind, we've got our precious sovrenty!

Richard Carter ● 1869d