Forum Topic

Welsh independence

Adam Price, Leader of Plaid Cymru, was on Andrew Marr a few minutes ago. In addition to discussing zero Covid, he was talking about a possible referendum on independence of Wales.  As he said, Wales is now in a similar position to Scotland 10 years ago.He admitted that many people who favour independence do not favour re-joining the EU, but that would be a subject for a separate referendum.How depressing!I do not know whether they will be successful in seeking independence or not.  But it highlights how out of touch Westminster continues to be from the rest of the country.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2096d31 Comments

Another think for Putin to laugh at? Balkanisation of the British Isles?

Michael Ixer ● 2096d

Revenge for the Balkanisation of the Soviet Union?

David Ainsworth ● 2096d

Depending upon polls I think the percentage that would vote for independence is between 23-31%, but there does seem to be agreement that it is growing.As for Westminster I'm not convinced that any of the parties have learnt the lessons from Brexit or Scotland.Nothing to do with Putin IMO just decades of neglect by both major parties.

Ed Robinson ● 2096d

How does Welsh independence affect us in Putney? Other than lowering our taxes as we no longer have to subsidise Wales? Couldn't care less.

Gregory Edelston ● 2096d

Ed. I doubt Putin has any direct involvement in Welsh independence but it is in his interest because a "West" preoccupied with fragmenting itself weakens it in the face of Russian aggression. And, yes, Westminster politics hasn't helped the situation ...

Michael Ixer ● 2096d

When the ‘subsidies’ stop I’ll expect Wales to cut the supply of water to Manchester it supplies via flooded valleys in the north. Only fair.

Freddie Francis ● 2096d

per capita, the Welsh get more from the Union than they give. Same is true of the Scots, the NI and the previously the EU. The English are the Union's Cash Cow.

Gregory Edelston ● 2096d

Gregory it's a fair question. Putney no doubt benefits from the concentration of power in London. Although you could argue that may not be an actual benefit to all, due to higher population, property prices, and pollution etc.

Ed Robinson ● 2096d

Absolutely nonsense!!  The EU did not "milk" the UK in the slightest!!  Where did you get this from?Am I to understand you wish the Union to break up and have England standalone?

Ivonne Holliday ● 2096d

London is the cash cow for the entire country, any chance we could stop subsidizing the rest of the lazy English?(tongue in cheek)

Matt Palmer ● 2096d

Actually I'm not sure why folk would not let these countries be wholly independent if thats what they wish. What right do the English have to stop it happening?Presumably you were all happy when Commonwealth countries obtained their independence. Surely this would be the final part of the dismantling of empire. 

Andy Pike ● 2096d

I did not realize that Scotland (Wales nor Northern Ireland) were part of the Empire.As far as Scotland is concerned, the Act of the Union was signed in 1707 but nothing to do with the Empire.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2096d

I agree that Northern Ireland is a different matter.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2096d

Maybe historically incorrect but the point is the same. Why should these 3 countries be tied to England for ever more?  Perhaps it's time a 300 year Act was reviewed, if that is the wish of one of the countries in that union.I dont see why the 3 countries should be stopped from taking their own routes if that's what they wish to do.

Andy Pike ● 2096d

Some Scots certainly see the status quo as a colonial hangover, while others can see that Scotland and England were co-beneficiaries of the riches of the empire (for better or for worse - plenty of eminent and wealthy Scots turned out to have enriched themselves at least in part from slavery.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2096d

Manchester's long-distance water supply comes from Thirlmere in Cumbria. I think Birmingham and possibly Liverpool ratepayers financed the construction of reservoirs in Wales.

Phil Woodward ● 2096d

Andy I think most people whatever their view would wish them well if they decided on independence.That may be a slightly different view to wishing for an independent England - or in Matt's less serious proposal for London.As with a lot of relationships money has been mentioned. In the case of London - I'm not sure the case would be so good once all the UK's contribution has been removed which would no doubt include the BoE etc (assuming debt was evenly spread :).There is a view that cash flow more to Wales and Scotland per capita than England. That may be true as the flows from traditional industries have not been replaced.The impression given from of those that wish for English independence is that they really do not have a vision for Scotland or Wales in the union. That's not surprising as various government's have also lacked a vision. But my questions would be do they have a vision for other parts of England? The other being: Is Wales and Scotland the best it can be?Less serious: Do we have to send Stonehenge back?

Ed Robinson ● 2096d

And on a very flippant note, what would happen if London seeks independence from England?

Ivonne Holliday ● 2096d

I wonder how many people here are pure English?  Even if they think they are they probably aren't if they look a little closer into their ancestry.How many have Neanderthal DNA or Denisovan DNA?https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/01/more-neanderthal-dna-than-you-think/Where did we come all from?  Who do you think you are?

Philippa Bond ● 2096d

I stand corrected but the destination is largely irrelevant. However, there’s a lot of historic resentment in Wales, of a similar kind as in Scotland with oil, that England has stripped it of resources, coal being the prime example. I doubt Wales will vote for independance anytime soon but its nationalism, pride in its language and overall confidence is growing.

Freddie Francis ● 2096d

Richard would call them little Welshlanders or little Scotlanders on that basis.

Andy Pike ● 2096d

Would we be sending them all home?

Philippa Bond ● 2096d

Re the supply of water the Manchester - Out of curiosity and to confirm the facts I checked and I was more correct than wrong. At least one reservoir that involved the loss of an entire village supplies Liverpool. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Vyrnwy as is Lyn Brenig. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llyn_Brenig Birmingham does gets its water from Wales but via land compulsory purchased for the purpose. A somewhat non-consensual means of acquisition one might say. An extract from the web:“ The Birmingham Corporation agreed and an Act of Parliament was passed for the compulsory purchase of the total water catchment area of the Elan and Claerwen Valleys (180 square kilometres). The choice of the Elan Valley as the source of Birmingham's future water supplies was to lead to the creation of a spectacular new landscape in mid-Wales.”

Freddie Francis ● 2096d

I completely agree with you Andy, if they want independence I dont see the issue.

Matt Palmer ● 2096d

If Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland - or even Cornwall - want to leave the UK then surely we have to respect self determination? My personal opinion is that more devolution would be a better solution and a more efficient  solution. Perhaps they could have an option to become crown dependencies?

Michael Ixer ● 2096d

If we start to break up the UK where will it end?  NI rejoining Ireland is one thing but losing Scotland and even Wales will diminish England considerably.Smaller land mass, smaller economy, less international clout (all incidentally already being exacerbated by Brexit).  Surely some sort of federation conferring most of the benefits of independence with a significant degree of self-determination but without the expense and potential economic disruption of full separation?  I would certainly prefer that but if full separation is what the majority in those countries want then we can't really stand in their way.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2096d

Looking at Wales economy (wiki) it seems unlike Scotland there is no 'Barnet consequential' it needs to pay £5 billion for HS2 for example.Wales also pays more for military costs too. Fair enough some may say but those costs are twice the amount Ireland spends on the military. I have to check how Wales MP's voted for various conflicts and Trident.But I think this sums up the issue:In the 1950s Wales' GDP was twice as big as Ireland’s; by the 2020s the economy of the Irish Republic was 4 times the size of Wales.

Ed Robinson ● 2096d

Fact the UK gave more money to the EU than it received. That was a central tenant of the pro-Brexit debate. (I was not fussed if the UK stayed in the EU or not)I am also not fussed either way if Scotland (and Wales & NI) go it alone. Again I don't think it will make much difference to us and the only people who will be worse off are the Scots, Welsh and NI.

Gregory Edelston ● 2094d

Let them both go, don’t plead with them to stay!We (England)  would be better off without these Chip on the Shoulder Provinces.We will have a English Parliament 👍

Vic Condon ● 2093d

"We will have a English Parliament"a English?

David Ainsworth ● 2093d

Not to worry Vic.  If Scotland and/or Wales do leave the Union eventually, you will not notice any difference in Westminster!

Ivonne Holliday ● 2093d