Forum Topic

LTNs: a useful development

After the fuss about the planters blocking access for emergency vehicles, Ealing and several other councils are getting rid of them and putting ANPR cameras instead - and issuing permits to people who genuinely need access. That seems a good compromise and should remove a lot of the objections to LTNs:https://road.cc/content/news/ltn-road-blocks-could-be-replaced-anpr-cameras-280531?amp

Richard Carter ● 1956d29 Comments

It is easier to have slower traffic when there is more of it - the problem is that it is deadly poisonous.  As soon as there is any space you get speeding cars.  It does need to be policed.  ANPR is useful as it tells you how much isn't local but it doesn't catch those who choose to take no notice and speed.  Some because they just don't like it - motorists and cyclists.  There is a problem with apps like Waze which send drivers down roads which are closed to motor traffic and will get you a fine.  Because of the way they are designed if someone drives through and they shouldn't the app decides it is now clear and sends other through.  The law regarding these apps needs changing so that they have to comply with local arrangements.  Many people enjoy the quieter streets including those with children who can walk and cycle to school when we are not in lockdown.  Those out walking have more space to socially distance.  We might even save money and lives by a reduction in the damage done to paving and kerbstones.  Some never get up again after their falls.

Philippa Bond ● 1955d

Taking precautions worked for me when I was a young man. Kept many a shotgun wielding dad from my door.😁

Andy Pike ● 1955d

"WBC: "Currently, we are planning to install only the signage and road markings, and monitor voluntary compliance with the new 20mph..""So the pedestrians will feel safe, and the motorists will feel free. Everybody wins! Don't they?I wonder whether council tax compliance will be made voluntary? Depend upon people's goodwill and community spirit.

David Ainsworth ● 1955d

Andy it is just doesn't work.Show me any where in the world where it does?You have to keep moving the goalposts - I guess until you are locked up in your own home.Compare UK approach and crime stats.The policy isn't working.

Ed Robinson ● 1955d

Richard as regards Gibraltar the point is about driver behaviour and law enforcement. I guess you may have missed that - not surprising given that you have missed parakeets for years.

Ed Robinson ● 1955d

All seems pretty good sensible advice .Not victim blaming but taking precautions to avoid upset.

Andy Pike ● 1955d

Richard:"Catalytic converter theftAlternatively, try to make sure your vehicle is parked in a garage overnight, or if you have a commercial vehicle park it in a secure compound. If this isn’t possible, park in an area that’s well-lit and overlooked and try to park so that the convertor can’t be easily reached by potential thieves.."https://www.met.police.uk/cp/crime-prevention/theft-from-a-vehicle/vehicle-safe-and-sound/

Ed Robinson ● 1955d

Richard see below:"Follow these simple steps to help protect your phone.Be aware of your surroundingsIf you need to call or use your phone on the street, look out for anyone on a bike or a moped near you. Look up, look outMake it quick so you don't become distractedDon't text while you're walking – you won't notice what's going on around youIf that's not possible, stand away from the roadside, close to a building or wall, so no one can come up behind you..."https://www.met.police.uk/cp/crime-prevention/personal-robbery/protect-your-mobile-phone-against-criminals-on-bikes-and-mopeds/

Ed Robinson ● 1955d

Perhaps you need some Healing Richard, I will not spend my whole life trying to block people in. Write a hundred lines I want to feel free from restrictions like everybody else. Or take some Fybogel. That gets rid of blockages.

Barbara Stevens ● 1955d

Ealing unlike Wandsworth, did not bring in their 20mph limit stating on their website that they were not going to enforce it.This at best is mixed messaging regarding the law and is completely unacceptable IMO.Can they tell the police what laws to enforce?Wrong on so many levels - what were they thinking?WBC: "Currently, we are planning to install only the signage and road markings, and monitor voluntary compliance with the new 20mph.."https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/roads-and-transport/road-safety/borough-wide-20mph-speed-limit/

Ed Robinson ● 1955d

"Yes Richard it is the same Met that is telling us not to use your phone in public and not to leave your car on the road. Useless advice!"Yes, it would be useless advice if that's what they were saying, but it isn't:On mobile phones in public, the advice is "Don’t leave your phone, iPad, tablet or camera unattended, out of your sight or left on a table – thieves can grab a phone from a table in seconds. Always be aware of your mobile and your whereabouts and  act accordingly. And when you’ve finished using it, put it away." Nothing at all about not using it in public.https://www.met.police.uk/cp/crime-prevention/personal-robbery/protect-your-phone/On cars, the advice in point 6 is the one: "Your mobile phone, coins for the car park, sunglasses, packs of medication or other items that can earn quick cash are irresistible to the opportunist thief. Remember, the cost of replacing a window is often much more than that of what’s stolen. And it should go without saying that wallets, handbags, purses and credit cards should never be left in an unattended vehicle." Again, nothing about not leaving your car but about what not to leave in it (they might have added, don't leave even an empty bag in view as it may not be obvious it has nothing in it).https://www.met.police.uk/cp/crime-prevention/theft-from-a-vehicle/vehicle-safe-and-sound/As for the stuff about Gibraltar, again, what on earth is that about? I'm beginning to suspect that you've been drinking at the same well as Ms Stevens...

Richard Carter ● 1955d

Bolt cutters are used we used to get one come in the shop, with it in his bag on his back.

Barbara Stevens ● 1955d

Yes Richard it is the same Met that is telling us not to use your phone in public and not to leave your car on the road. Useless advice!Either we continue down the victim blaming route or we can go for a zero tolerance. It's ultimately about changing behaviour and cameras tend to have limited impact. Those that they do catch - the level of fines is more inline with a form of taxation than a deterrent.It's just another illusion to escape from the fact that we need police visible and upholding the law.Little more than one mile but two different countries motorists behave differently. Why? Because the law is upheld in one and not the other and behaviour has changed. And because behavior has changed regardless of police being visible they tend not to stop in Gibraltar at Zebra crossing but do in Spain.

Ed Robinson ● 1955d

I was referring to your irrelevant (and incomprehensible) remark about the vaccine: "Otherwise the vaccine has affected me."

Richard Carter ● 1955d

... or a hand grenade hidden under the saddle with the pin linked to the lock (assuming you use a lock, of course)?

Richard Carter ● 1955d

Richard you had better tell everybody else to witter somewhere else then. They obviously prefer to moan about cyclists.

Barbara Stevens ● 1955d

For bike protection from theft, I have never understood why my idea for a seat-tube shotgun never caught on.

David Ainsworth ● 1955d

"Many cyclists give up after having a bicycle stolen. I myself stopped for several years. When I started again the advice from cyclists forums etc about security was to lock your bike next to a better one because thieves would steal that one rather than yours. You couldn't make it up!"You don't need to make it up, Ed, because it's standard practice. Years ago, for example, a Met Police crime prevention officer came to out house to advise on preventing burglaries. He explained carefully that you can't ever stop someone who is really determined to break in, so best practice then (and now) was to make it difficult so the thieves would go off and try somewhere it was easier to break into. As to cycle theft generally, the best protection is not to leave it locked up for long periods, or to have a folding bike that can easily be taken with you: the Brompton pages are full of people explaining how they avoid locking them up out of sight by wheeling them round in supermarket trollies or, semi-folded, as makeshift trollies in themselves..

Richard Carter ● 1955d

FGS! Not only is this nothing to do with jumping red lights but it's also nothing to do with the vaccine. There are other threads where you can witter on about that, so why don't you go there?

Richard Carter ● 1955d

Good morning Richard,I am not too sure it was "a fuss about the planters blocking access for emergency vehicles"; I would say it was an outcry. Two important points to make:  1 - The use of ANPR should have been there from the outset when implementing the LTNs. (I have mentioned this many times before).As the article you placed a link for says:  "The planters used to block roads in low traffic neighbourhoods (LTNs) in Sutton and Croydon COULD be replaced by automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) cameras."Ealing has already implemented this and as the article states:"So far, 99 out of every 100 penalty charge notices (PCN) handed out as part of our enforcement of the trial schemes during December 2020 were issued to drivers who live outside of that LTN. To date, 60% of PCNs have been issued to drivers who do not live in the borough."The second point, which I always maintained, is that it is very important to make a differentiation between local traffic and people coming from outside the borough.The paragraph relating the Ealing clearly states that 60% of PCNs were issued to drivers who do not live in the borough.  Quite a statistic!!An observation I would like to make is that special permits should be issued to residents in an LTN, just in the same way they do for CPZs. They are called visitor's parking permits which are also used for trades people working on your property.  Very important indeed!  In the case of ANPR, the number plate of the vehicle should be declared before they visit of course.On the whole, delighted to hear that common sense is prevailing regarding the LTNs and the use of ANPR. Another observation would be the need to look into/study is on how to keep the volume of traffic on authorized roads moving.  The volume of cars is very important, but the pollution created by stationary traffic is lethal. We must keep in mind that people live on main roads, such as Roehampton Lane, which also has a hospital, various schools and at least one nursery among others and they need protection from pollution too.Thank you.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1955d

Ed, put something about cyclists not stopping in his last post. Somebody tried to cycle into me the other day. Otherwise the vaccine has affected me.

Barbara Stevens ● 1955d

wasn't this thread about LTN's?

Matt Palmer ● 1955d

Ed, I agree, the cyclists continue to go past the lights, I stood in front of one to stop them as I was crossing. But this isn't a one off it's all the time and nobody does anything about it.

Barbara Stevens ● 1955d

"cyclists have lost the support of a large percentage of pedestrians due to a large percentage of cyclists not obeying the law."How many motorists do you think break the 20mph speed limit? I see drivers breaking the law every day but for some reason that's considered acceptable even though they're in command of one tonne metal boxes in built up residential areas. Motorists have certainly lost my support because of the large percentage I see not obeying the law.I cycle through the city daily and over the last few years I've noticed cyclists being a lot less tolerant of others jumping the red lights. If there's a group waiting at the lights and someone jumps they generally get shouted at, I've also seen a cyclist catch up to a red light jumper to give them a talking to.

William Smith ● 1955d

I'm not so sure Richard.Yesterday I witnessed my first, what I call the Gibraltar wave, in 10 months.The green man came on at a pedestrian crossing and a woman with a child in a pram proceeded to cross only to reverse rapidly as a woman cyclist failed to stop. The cyclists continued to cycle without a pause but she did wave and shouted an apology.Gibraltar is a very safe place apart from crossing the road. But if you are on a zebra crossing and someone almost runs you over they will wave and shout an apology without stopping of course!Consequences of collisions are of course far greater the larger the mass. I can understand police concentrating on behavior that causes the worse outcomes - but as a society we need to get to zero tolerance! Where society deems it all unacceptable. That is hard to do when cyclists have lost the support of a large percentage of pedestrians due to a large percentage of cyclists not obeying the law.It doesn't need to be all fines but it does mean police should be pulling over offenders of all types - and yes fines for those that repeat.It was always strange crossing the border from Gibraltar to Spain because cars stopped at zebra crossings. Why because the Spanish fine very heavily as a deterrent! I think we need to look at how other countries have tackled this issue.Lastly it should be obvious to the cycle lobby but doesn't appear to be the case that you can only cycle with a bicycle. The cycle lobby should be campaigning for zero tolerance concerning bicycle theft but it isn't. Why?Many cyclists give up after having a bicycle stolen. I myself stopped for several years. When I started again the advice from cyclists forums etc about security was to lock your bike next to a better one because thieves would steal that one rather than yours. You couldn't make it up!

Ed Robinson ● 1955d

"I guess the cycle lobby still thinks you can have a safe and green environment without law enforcement."I don't know where you got that from, Ed, it's not anything I've seen anywhere. I think most people, whether in the 'cycle lobby' or not, would like to see proper enforcement of the laws.

Richard Carter ● 1955d

Speeding can be a separate concern. Trying to create a catch-all is probably not an efficient ideal.

Freddie Francis ● 1955d

Yep sounds very sensible - issue permits - not sure how that helps deliveries etc.It also doesn't address speeding.Sensible enforcement would have been the correct way to go.I guess the cycle lobby still thinks you can have a safe and green environment without law enforcement. I wonder if it has been proved anywhere else in the world???

Ed Robinson ● 1956d

Great, lets hope Wandsworth does the same for where the Tooting LTN's were

Matt Palmer ● 1956d