Forum Topic

Keep the Thames path haven for nature - no street lights!

This week work has started to put street lights on the Thames Path to Putney Bridge. These lights will change the character of one of the most natural sections of the Thames Path as it passes Barnes Wetland Centre and I don't think there has been any consultation  Lots of people enjoy walking this stretch of the path - especially because covid means our daily walk or run is one of life's few pleasures - and those, like me, who walk at dawn or dusk especially appreciate enjoying the sunrise or sunset and the birdsong.  What can be done? Richmond Council street lighting are doing the work and had one streetlight in on Monday, by the Harrods Building, and 6 or 7 by this morning. I appreciate some people might like the idea, but there are plenty of places to walk or run with street lights already, it seems crazy to take away one of the few natural spaces in our busy city.

Angela Francis ● 1890d42 Comments

Thanks, Barbara. Sorry, I missed the relevance - and this project! I guess given many of these bridges have some lighting already (?) a "cohesive" and "ecologically sensitive" plan is better than an uncoordinated approach. It seems to be only in the central area of London where I suspect there's lots of other light pollution, so it shouldn't affect wildlife in the outer boroughs to the east and west of London where there are more open spaces, and the central London Parks - Hyde Park to St James's and Regents Park, etc should be far enough away to be unaffected.https://illuminatedriver.london/about

Michael Ixer ● 1880d

Michael, sorry I put this down, because some are worried about bats and birds.

Barbara Stevens ● 1880d

Barbara, while we're swapping non  sequiturs, I've not counted many stars in the Orion constellation recently. I don't think the problem is light pollution ... Still, even the Slooh remote observatory 'scopes in the Canary Islands have been closed the past few days because of bad weather ...https://britastro.org/starcount2021

Michael Ixer ● 1880d

Michael, my other half read a lot of London Bridges are going to be illuminated for a display of Art.

Barbara Stevens ● 1880d

"whatever "birds will be birds" means heaven only knows!"I think that Barbara means that birds will crash into things unless we light up the dark?

David Ainsworth ● 1880d

Reading the post with the response from Richmond and Wandsworth it does appear that some thought has gone into installing these lights. I suspect if a ferry crossing is necessay and is implemented at Harrod Wharf then they're going to be necessary. Although I'd agree with Ed that the best solution would be to fix or replace the bridge I can't see that happening in a timely manner so it looks like the ferry is required. If I've understood it correctly the ferry won't run overnight so the lights don't need to be on when the ferry isn't running. I guess the lights are needed more for safety of the more infirm to see their way rather than personal security in the dark. From talking to people at the Commission for Dark Skies there's some research that indicates lighting can actually assist criminals - it helps then we what they're doing - and they can hide in the dark until the coast is clear before carrying out their crime. The best security are lights that only come on when motion is detected - unlike lights permanently on they highlight to anyone watching that something abnormal is happening. (Preferably lights that aren't activated by a fox on its evening stroll or a cat darting after its prey, and, obviously, those lights aren't appropriate for the ferry approach.)Finally, while I'd agree it's important school children travel in safety I wouldn't imagine they'll be going to or from school late in the evening, and perhaps they'd like some wildlife preserved so they can enjoy it: I get the impression that many of today's youngsters are more ecologically (and climate) aware than some of their seniors?

Michael Ixer ● 1880d

As I said Barbara - it has coarsened over the last few years - no longer a nice place to walk & whatever "birds will be birds" means heaven only knows!

Lynne McNulty ● 1880d

Just as well the ferry constantly going across the river (with lights), maneuvering etc isn't going to disturb the wildlife!

Ed Robinson ● 1883d

Pls see response from Richmond and Wandsworth Council--------- Forwarded message ---------From: Porter, Andrew Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 at 11:10Subject: RE: Lights along the Thames Path between Putney - Beverly Brook bridge and Hammersmith Bridge (Case Ref: SO18361)Official Dear Louise de Silva RE: Lights along the Thames Path between Putney - Beverly Brook bridge and Hammersmith Bridge (Case Ref: SO18361) Thank you for your enquiry The street lighting on the Thames  Path  has been   provided to enhance public safety at night time while Hammersmith Bridge is closed to all users. Prior to installing the street lights an ecology report repot was commissioned  and has  approval  from the Bat Conservation Trust and Richmond upon Thames Tree and  Ecology Officers. The street lights are solar powered and have no electrical supply cables minimising  the disturbance to the tree roots,  they are   LED and controlled by a photo electric cells and microwave detectors, the lighting is designed  to have minimal impact on nocturnal wildlife and surrounding vegetation. The street  lights  will be reviewed at the start of British Summer time or sooner  if Hammersmith Bridge reopens. Yours sincerely  Andrew Porter Principal Street Lighting EngineerServing Richmond and Wandsworth Councils Civic Centre,44 York StreetTwickenhamTW1 3BZ  Internal Extension 27086Office Telephone: 020 8891 7086Mobile 0790 4515492 email:andrew.porter@richmondandwandsworth.gov.uk www.richmond.gov.ukwww.wandsworth.gov.uk

Louise de Silva ● 1883d

Lynne, do you not realize you already have lights from the Harrods Properties anyway. So I do not see the problem. Birds will be birds, they might like to see where they are flying. Also I think you will find also one of the pontoons does already belong to somebody who is I think you will find prepared to let it be used for the ferrying across the river. Also as for using torches, just because you used to have too, doesn't mean we should, these days you do not know who is on the towpath, If I thought my son when he was younger had to walk down there in the dark, I would be pulling my hair out.

Barbara Stevens ● 1886d

I assume that the lights are only on timers, not sensors?

David Ainsworth ● 1886d

I agree Angela - what's the problem with torches ? The kids used them when we lived further out of London. Impact on biodiversity is well documented but it's the overall ambience that will deteriorate. I used to enjoy that walk back to Putney but it has coarsened considerably in recent years.

Lynne McNulty ● 1886d

Though the pretty visualisation omits the fact, there will need to be pontoons constructed a considerable distance into the river, away from the banks on both sides due to the water levels at high and low tide. The PLA will need to be consulted as this is their domain. Perhaps someone should enquire as to whether an application has been made and at what stage this is at, if any. IF this is granted I would imagine it will be some time before anything gets under way. It's my understanding that this is not the sole application for a ferry service. There are others on the western side of the bridge.

Freddie Francis ● 1886d

No documents are available yet as the planning application is listed as ‘not validated’. Here is the relevant page https://www2.richmond.gov.uk/lbrplanning/Planning_CASENO_Noindex.aspx?strAppNo=QJLBQ8KAGA000There is no application number yet either.

Catherine Schade ● 1886d

The Harrods Wharf update says..."I'm delighted to announce that we have agreed (subject to terms) to allow Richmond Council - for free - to install this way-finding lighting on the Thames Path, WHICH WE OWN, between Harrods Wharf and Hammersmith Bridge".The planning application for the use of the wharf, which is an ambitious proposal will provide all the necessary drawings and red line plans, which are likely to extend to what they actually own.  It's probably worth having a good look at the application on Richmond's planning portal.

John Cameron ● 1886d

John - do you read this statement that Harrods Wharf ‘owns’ the stretch of the Thames Path between the Wharf and Hammersmith Bridge? Surely not!

Catherine Schade ● 1886d

Can anyone tell me what lighting actually already been installed on the towpath? Thank you.

Catherine Schade ● 1886d

12/12/20 Update12 December 2020|Update from JamieI'm delighted to announce that we have agreed (subject to terms) to allow Richmond Council - for free - to install this way-finding lighting on the Thames Path, which we own, between Harrods Wharf and Hammersmith Bridge  The Council ordered the lighting this week.  It's six dimmable 2700k solar light units and a further 200m of way-finding lighting. I commend this action by the Council, and I hope it contributes to a safer journey along the River for our kids and others forced off the bridge.Transport for London:As you know we've been in discussions with TfL to use the Wharf as the southside Ferry port. They have now asked that we provide the site for 5 years,  which is a big change from the initial 12 months. While this is a big ask, we have agreed in principle and are working through the details with them and the LB Richmond. LB RichmondThe main issue for the Ferry port at the moment is planning consent. LB Richmond are challenging parts of the scheme, making it difficult for our talks with TfL to move forward. I have spoken to the deputy leader of the Council who continues to be helpful, but planning officers have requested additional reports which we plan to submit by December 21. We have not changed our views and still want to support this Ferry service but we do need Richmond to be more supportive on their planning requests. We have now spent £85,000 at the LB Richmond’s request and they still continue to ask for more. I'm willing to work with them, and this week's lighting announcement is evidence of that, but our goal is to get this port up and running without much further delay.Ferry applicationsThe Ferry providers' pre-qualification questionnaires were due in to TfL this week and we know from operators that they've completed their submissions for that deadline. It does look like there is suitable interest and within time, we will get a Ferry. The bottleneck of course could still end up being planning issues with our friends at LB Richmond but let's hope that is not the case. Please let LBRUT Mayor Gareth Roberts know that your continue to support the deployment of the Harrods Wharf as quickly as possible.  His twitter is @Gareth_Roberts_  The Power of TwitterThe Hammersmith Bridge SOS group have put out a great guide on how to use Twitter to keep the pressure on the politicians and other relevant players.  I recommend it highly. The link is hereSupport!We now have over 2555 of you subscribed to support Harrods Wharf but cannot have too many! If you know of anyone that has been affected by the closure of the Bridge can I kindly ask that you share our website and ask them to simply leave us with their email address to show their support - www.harrodswharf.com

John Cameron ● 1887d

It looks like SMINC are Non-Statutory and the responsibility of the local authority.I could not find a list of SMINC's even but that is probably my google skills!https://www.gigl.org.uk/designated-sites/non-statutory-sincs/

Ed Robinson ● 1888d

I don't think so, but for an important a Site of Metropolitan Importance for Nature Conservation (SMINC), which the Thames is, I think a proper consultation and an impact assessment are necessary. I found a useful piece of information on the approach Richmond Councils are supposed to use to considering street lights here. https://e-voice.org.uk/rcs/assets/documents/light-pollution

Angela Francis ● 1888d

Does there need to be a planning application for lighting?

Alan Sherman ● 1888d

"At the moment kids aren't in school because of lockdown.."Sorry Angela that is factually incorrect.Key worker' and other vulnerable kids are in school.Assuming when and if a ferry service appears (waste of money better to have a new bridge IMO) it will be use by lots of people not just school kids.

Ed Robinson ● 1888d

Is it not dark still at 10pm. Have you got children obviously not, because you are only thinking of yourself, why not have a word with worried mother's, instead of talking to the birds and bats. Perhaps you need a bit more human interaction.

Barbara Stevens ● 1888d

Thanks all, it is useful to understand the backstory to these lights.  Children's routes to school are important but I don't think that is the questions here. At the moment kids aren't in school because of lockdown, the days are already getting longer and by the time they are back in school in early March it will be light from 6.45am to 5.45pm and there will be a temporary ferry service will be running too - from 6.00am to 10.00pm. So these street lights would not benefit school children and there doesn't seem to be a good reason to make a permanent change to the character and environmental status of this stretch of path.Richmond Council should pause the work on the lights until they have consulted and assessed the impact properly rather than rush ahead because they and the government have failed to do what they need to do and repair Hammersmith Bridge.

Angela Francis ● 1888d

Need RNLI on stand by.

Barbara Stevens ● 1889d

It’s a non-starter. There are several options being tabled by various outfits. This is not the only one. From what I’ve heard the PLA have not been approached regarding this one and questions are being asked about whether the buildings will be temporary. Planning permission may well be proposed in that vein but the price of that cheaply bought wharf will skyrocket should it be reviewed and allowed to be permanent. A tidy value hike will no doubt follow. Hmmm.

Freddie Francis ● 1889d

TfL launches procurement of £10M Hammersmith ferry crossing.(Another 20 and you could get a new bridge.)No mention of operating hours, but according to the BBC it will not be a 24 hour service.So I would assume the lights may be throughout the whole night.I assume the ferries will be diesel.https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/tfl-launches-procurement-of-10m-hammersmith-ferry-crossing-30-11-2020/"However, at a Transport and Air Quality Committee meeting on Thursday night council officers warned the service could not run 24 hours a day due to tidal issues, and it would not be known whether people will be charged to use it or if bikes could travel onboard until the procurement process was complete."https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-54827541

Ed Robinson ● 1889d

BTW they are not at low level but tall and does anyone know when they will be lit?

Louise de Silva ● 1889d

@Freddie Francis it was not me who complained about the lights under Putney Bridge. I suppose I should not be surprised about the responses about putting humans first.... I think in only a few years you will realise the importance of putting the environment and nature first and the consequences if you do not... by then it may well be too late to turn the tide. There really is hardly any green space for the birds, insects and the animals that are left, especially in London. Hedgehogs are one example of an animal native to England who are about to go extinct and this will not help. Again instead of getting angry about this we should direct our energy to getting the H BRidge repaired ASAP.

Louise de Silva ● 1889d

I still can't believe they are going to run a ferry.What is really odd is the silence from the green lobby.It makes green and economical sense just to build a new bridge.If your going to have a ferry terminal then you need decent lighting for people to get to it.

Ed Robinson ● 1889d

Harrods Depository residents are not going to let that happen without a fight.

Freddie Francis ● 1889d

Harrods Wharf Ferry, Illustration front page of forum. Looks lovely.

Barbara Stevens ● 1889d

This is the same person posting about the bats as complained about the bridge lights. I think it would be a good thing to have the lights, for safety if nothing else. As someone else stated, they needn’t be on all night at all and hopefully be low level and pointing down to limit light pollution. We have them on Barnes common already so there’s a precedent.

Freddie Francis ● 1889d

Well perhaps the birds can find a new residence, Barnes common, Wimbledon Common. We have had this before because somebody didn't like the new lights under Putney Bridge. I really think as much as we all love birds as I feed them all. Perhaps children and residents are bit more important at the moment. Don't you think.

Barbara Stevens ● 1889d

Because of the local councils and the government not maintaining HB nature seems to have to suffer. This should not be the case but always seems to be. No one is there to defend the only true natural path. There is a bat flight path through the trees which meant that the Thames Tunnel could not be mined across the path near Barn Elms. The trees across from the Fulham football stadium have been cut down due to the extension. Now this... we must preserve this part of London... and fight for a boat crossing or a temp bridge or at lease a quick repair of the HB. So I do not think that these lights should be placed along the path. see these links to see how street lights effect wildlife and lets start fighting against this...birds -  https://ww2.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-wildlife/bird-and-wildlife-guides/ask-anexpert/previous/streetlighting.aspxBats - https://ww2.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-wildlife/bird-and-wildlife-guides/ask-an-expert/previous/streetlighting.aspxhttps://https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile?pid=513https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-18158529

Louise de Silva ● 1889d

If it's for the childn to get to school then presumably the lights could be turned off at 8 or 9 pm so it doesn't interfere with wild life such as the bats from the Wetlands Center that navigate along the towpath trees in summer feasting on the insects? In fact, in summer they wouldn't really be needed at all? 

Michael Ixer ● 1889d

Well the bridge is lost at the moment and children need to get to school. Well I'm sure if you try and get the Bridge fixed your have your path back.

Barbara Stevens ● 1889d

Appreciate it might seem like a nice idea, but there are plenty of places to walk at night with street lights already, and there are so few places in London without! Sunrise and sunset on this path has been my happy place during the lockdown and really sad if it is lost!

Angela Francis ● 1889d

It makes it safer to walk along in night-time so I don't particularly have an issue with it!

Gabrielle OMahony ● 1889d

Safe access for kids to school is really important, and I am all for encouraging more cycling, but I wonder if putting street lights on the south side of the river path will be an excuse not to get the bridge fixed! That is the real solution.

Angela Francis ● 1889d

I think they want a Pontoon to ferry residents across the river. Something needs to be done urgently, as the residents of Barnes are rather stuck at the moment and young children needing to get to school.  Be grateful they are attempting to do something at least.

Barbara Stevens ● 1889d

Probably to do with Hammersmith bridge beibg shut and kids using this path to get to Putney and cross the river.

Andy Pike ● 1889d