Forum Topic

WBC pushing for 20mph limit on red routes

This will mean 20mph on the Upper Richmond Road and A3.Less accidents is quoted as the reason. Although that is only true if the vehicles are travelling at 20mph.I have a couple of questions - putting aside general ones around enforcement etc: 1) If the main route and side routes have the same speed limit - will more drivers switch to the side roads?2) Will it lead to more congestion? Main roads have traffic lights - will lowering the speed result in less throughput at these junctions and hence more queueing?I would assume that the changes could be modelled - although with the URR gas works portal back with temporary single lane 20mph may be a bonus!

Ed Robinson ● 2117d28 Comments

So what speed will buses and cyclists have to do.

Barbara Stevens ● 2117d

Good question Barbara.Speed limits do not apply to cyclists and there is no plan to change that.It should although often doesn't apply to motorcycles.I have noticed some improvement in buses but several still appear to speed.I could not find any recent information on buses speeding but this article was interesting:Enforcement of 20mph speed limits ‘statistically insignificant’It is basically saying there is no enforcement and that 87% of drivers break the limit if given the opportunity.I guess there may be a third issue: if main routes are the same will drivers treat the other 20mph roads as main roads? At present we have 30 and 20 and I'm assuming driving patterns change when entering a 20mph zone. But if they are all 20mph will it push up speeds on the existing 20mph roads?https://www.eta.co.uk/2019/12/13/20mph-speed-limits-lack-en

Ed Robinson ● 2116d

“ It should although often doesn't apply to motorcycles.”Of course it applies to motorcycles. What a ridiculous statement.

Freddie Francis ● 2116d

If you’re worried about where people will drive, just wait till the ULEZ zone extension kicks in and the south circular is jammed up with people avoiding it. Try getting on a bus to Clapham, let alone driving your own car there, it’ll be a hoot I’m sure.

Freddie Francis ● 2116d

"Of course it applies to motorcycles. What a ridiculous statement."Freddie most motorcyclists speed. Why? Because they can!Very hard for a car to overtake another can travelling at the speed limit not so for motorcycles.Speed compliance statistics show thishttps://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/915731/vehicle-speed-compliance-statistics-2019.pdf

Ed Robinson ● 2116d

To be more precise, speed limits apply to motorcycles, it's just easier for them to break them, and more difficult to enforce them?

Michael Ixer ● 2116d

I suppose there will have to be some broken rules when carrying a kidney or liver, oxygen or blood. But I think a bit stupid a bus having to go on a main road 20 especially on a road like the A3.

Barbara Stevens ● 2116d

I disagree with main roads having a 20m/h limit.  I agree with residential roads having it, but certainly not main roads.I assume that, because Richmond has issued a blanket 20 m/h limit in its borough, and as Wandsworth and Richmond Councils are working together, the blanket speed limit would be "extended" to Wandsworth. Therefore, by definition, the main roads should no longer be A roads.The key is on enforcement and experience has taught us that this is the weakest link.Of course, these speed limits would not apply to emergency vehicles attending an emergency.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2116d

Given congestion in rush hour, time spent waiting at traffic lights - and other hold ups - one wonders what impact this will have on average journey times? Is this being implemented to reduce road deaths, or is it for environmental reasons?

Michael Ixer ● 2116d

Hello Michael,This is the link to Richmond Council's reasons for 20 mile speed limithttps://richmond.gov.uk/services/roads_and_transport/roads_and_road_works/speed_limits/20mph/our_approach_to_20_mph_speed_limitsBy the looks of it, it seems they wish to avoid traffic calming measures.....

Ivonne Holliday ● 2116d

I'm puzzled, according to that link the Richmond scheme excludes TfL Red Routes from the 20 mph scheme.

Michael Ixer ● 2116d

Yes, that is why I assume Govindia is asking Khan to implement the 20 m/h on the red routes in Wandsworth.I do not understand the logic of 20 m/h on main roads either. 

Ivonne Holliday ● 2116d

Means to increase revenue?  Cannot remember where I saw this, but last year Wandsworth was the fourth Council with highest income from traffic fines....

Ivonne Holliday ● 2116d

It looks like snail power ...

Michael Ixer ● 2116d

Ivonne, it is one of the great urban myths that speed cameras are just revenue generating devices. Firstly the only people caught are actual lawbreakers, secondly they are bright dayglo yellow so you really can’t miss them. As I understand it fines from all moving traffic offences go directly to the treasury not to TfL or local councils. Parking ticket revenues stay local however.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2116d

Are you sure ?Just saying they generate revenue for the treasury and not TfL or local councils doesn't actually say that they are not revenue generating devices.Have you seen the many cameras along the A3 ?Many vehicles are running along at 60mph then suddenly jab their brakes just before each camera; glide past it at 54mph the accelerate back to 60mph.This doesn't give a uniform reduction in speed just causes some drivers to get startled when the car in front stabs at it's breaks with nothing in front of it.

Mark Derry ● 2116d

I think you'll find that speed limits do actually apply to bicycles as well. In the past (before 20mph limits) it was rare for a cyclist to be going over 30mph. But I know one who was stopped for speeding (a hill helped). The policeman did let him off with a warning. This would however be difficult to police as cyclists aren't obliged to have speedos, but as is often the case, ignorance is no defence.

Mark Derry ● 2116d

The Motor Car Act 1903 (3 Edw.7, c. 36) was an Act of the United Kingdom Parliament that received royal assent on 14 August 1903. This act introduced motor vehicle registration, driver licensing and increased the speed limit to 20mph...

Mark Derry ● 2116d

Mark - Perhaps we will have someone running in front with a red flag next :)WBC are proposing this change to TFL - I do not think speed camera revenue is really relevant.Besides the general statement about accidents at 20 mph no other reason has been given.Let's assume that is the only motive. The 20mph will only be applicable if traffic travels at that speed. That will require enforcement. Which is odd because they have not enforced the 20mph on the non-main routes.Having had cars over taking me dangerously while keeping to the 20mph speed limit - I feel such measures would put drivers in danger if they are not enforced. You don't want some lorry bearing down on you as you poodle along at 20mph whilst being undertaken by bicycles and over taken by motorcyclists!"Currently, we are planning to install only the signage and road markings, and monitor voluntary compliance with the new 20mph "https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/roads-and-transport/road-safety/borough-wide-20mph-speed-limit/

Ed Robinson ● 2116d

Think we've had this conversation before. There are no speed limits for bicycles on public highways except sometimes there are by laws, as in Richmond Park, that apply them to bikes as well as motorised transport (I'm not sure about horses - or deer).https://www.slatergordon.co.uk/newsroom/can-cyclists-break-the-speed-limit/

Michael Ixer ● 2116d

Yes Michael that is correct regarding public highways.I need to check the park rules as someone on the other site posted a link to a Royal Park policy document that indicated that speed limits were not enforced for bicycles. I will check later. But not relevant to this proposal.

Ed Robinson ● 2116d

I got stopped by parks police in RP years ago because apparently I was doing over 20mph on my bike. Not sure how they knew as I didnt see any evidence and frankly it was news to me that I could even go that fast, must have been a following wind or something!

Matt Palmer ● 2115d

Good morning Jonathan,Apologies for the late reply.I agree with you entirely but how many bright dayglo yellow speed cameras are there on the red routes in Putney?  Talking about my local red routes, I cannot remember any on Upper Richmond Road (I do not include Upper Richmond Road West), Lower Richmond Road (not a red route but a 20 mile per hour restriction suggested separately by WBC) or Putney Bridge Road?There are on West Hill coming off the A3 (when the road reduces from three lanes into one), on Putney Hill near the Green Man and on Roehampton Lane (when coming in from the A3).WBC, in its press release of 21 January 2021 states that "Enforcement of the borough’s 20mph speed limit is carried out by the Metropolitan Police, with the council working in support of their efforts. Any revenue generated by speed fines goes direct to HM Treasury - not the town hall.(https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/news/news-january-2021/mayor-is-urged-to-lower-speed-limit-to-20mph-on-his-strategic-network-of-red-routes/)My remark of WBC increasing revenue was in fact a rather cynic remark I am afraid.  WBC and enforcement of parking restrictions does not seem to go hand in hand very well, particularly outside Wandsworth Town or perhaps Putney High Street and surrounding roads.  A road with a single yellow line that operates from Monday to Saturday 7am-7pm was very rarely patrolled.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2115d

Actually there is a speed camera on the URR covering eastbound traffic near the leisure centre.  There are other cameras on the URR and at Putney Cross which monitor yellow box transgressors and red route parking, e.g. near the post office.  Basically - drive with care, park with care and read all the signs!

Jonathan Callaway ● 2115d

Regarding Richmond & Wandsworth Councils working together.How can that be allowed to happen?Wandsworth Residents  voted for its Own Council NOT a  Neighbouring Borough!

Vic Condon ● 2112d

"Wandsworth Residents voted for its Own Council NOT a  Neighbouring Borough!"Was there a referendum?

David Ainsworth ● 2112d

I think you'll find, Vic, that the two councils are politically distinct but have chosen to merge some back office functions in the pursuit of efficiency. That's the theory, anyway.

Richard Carter ● 2112d

Matt even I can go 20mph+ downhill on a chunky mountain bike.Definitely on a flat with a road bike."Speed limits do not apply to cyclists within the parks, but it is recommended that cyclists keep to appropriate speeds for the environment.  Cycling design speeds between 8 and 12mph have been found to be more acceptable to other park visitors*."https://www.royalparks.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/65395/160812_CPB_cycle-policy-TRP-2016-approved_es.pdf"What do we do to work within the principlesControlling the speed of traffic, using speed limits - 20mph on roads where appropriate (currently the outer parks) and 10mph for cyclists on shared use paths;"https://www.royalparks.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/66767/Transport-Principles.pdf

Ed Robinson ● 2112d