Forum Topic

Khan's Streetspace initiative

Declared unlawful following a successful JR brought by taxidrivers and others yesterday. TfL may appeal and/or substantially redesign the project that gave more street space to active travel including cycling.

John Geoffries ● 1896d16 Comments

Looking at all the various arguments against LTNs, reducing car use, against speed limits there's quite a useful diagram in a blog about climate emergency denialism (https://en.forumviesmobiles.org/2021/01/25/12-discourses-climate-delay-transport-sector-13544). It seems that most of the arguments here are based mainly on the bottom quadrant, "Change will be disruptive."Whatever, it's always argued that more immediate problems must preclude longer-term action.  Whatever, it just amounts to the triumph of short term interests over the wider and much more serious issue. 

Richard Carter ● 1889d

Hello Richard,It is not an odd reply at all but I do agree it is not clear enough. I am not too sure where I said that the cycle routes will stop London from being the wealth-producing centre of the country. The LTNs are not a new idea as it has been under discussion at the DfT for some time, I think something like 2018 and 2019.  The basis for them has always been active travelling and walking.  But then COVID came and it became the opportunity to introduce them to "ensure social distancing" (and by the way, discouraging people  from using public transport).Please look at the following link and make not of the date:  https://www.gov.uk/government/news/2-billion-package-to-create-new-era-for-cycling-and-walking The LTNs and the cycle lanes were not introduced by TfL, but yes implemented by it in London.  The whole idea came from DfT.The cycle routes idea goes back to 2014 or 2015 when BoJo's was Mayor of London, particularly with the introduction of the cycle route in Embankment and he regretted not having implemented more.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-54180647The disjointed bit of my posting came when mentioning smoked salmon, ducks and geese.  This relates to London being the centre of everything. Did you watch the programme "What Britain buys and sells in a day" by any chance?  That is where the association comes with the salmon, which is farmed in north Scotland and brought down in lorries for export from Heathrow.....  Why not Manchester, Glasgow or Edinburg?  And walking ducks and geese was a very flippant remark where farmers bring their produce by foot as it is difficult for lorries to get to the market.  And no, I did not say that you want everybody to return to horse and cart.  As I do not have a garden big enough to keep a horse, I very cheekily said I could keep the horse in your garden.  I hope this has cleared any misunderstandings from my previous post.Thank you.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1894d

I would definitely agree with the phrase black cabs cartel!

Emma Blackwell ● 1895d

Just to add, this case was brought by the taxi-drivers' cartel, and Figure 2.4 from TfL's Travel Report 11* — which I can't post here as, seemingly, the website doesn't allow you to upload images any longer (why?) — shows just what an insignificant contribution taxis make to travel in London: a pathetic 1 per cent. * http://content.tfl.gov.uk/travel-in-london-report-11.pdf

Richard Carter ● 1895d

IncorrectUber operate in the same way. They give you an appropriate fee but if you get stuck in a traffic jam for example the fare goes up but you don’t see it until your money is taken from your accountThis is why the black cabs tried to get them banned in London as they were charging people in the same way a black cab does

Emma Blackwell ● 1895d

A very odd reply, Ivonne: I think you're trying too hard but simply don't have the material to back up what you're arguing. Specifically, your incoherent suggestion that a few cycle lanes will "stop London being the wealth-producing centre of the country?" is ridiculous, as even you must see.Then there's "COVID came and gave the perfect excuse for implementing the ETO"Really? You think that TfL deviously decided to do this? Where's the evidence for this assumption?What on earth is the stuff about smoked salmon, ducks and geese about???And the tired old claim that I want to return us to the horse and cart era! I've lost count of the number of times that I've explained, patiently, that I DO NOT WANT TO ELIMINATE MOTOR VEHICLES BUT REDUCE OUR RELIANCE ON THEM. Clear now?

Richard Carter ● 1895d

"the process was inappropriately used to bypass consultation etc"But if you look at the government guidance,which I quoted, you'll see that for temporary schemes, prior consultation wasn't needed. "The lockdown was considered temporary and for a short time when the government knew it would go on for longer and be repeated :)"You're imputing knowledge that the government simply didn't have.

Richard Carter ● 1895d

In theory the Uber model is great but it's implementation with a cavalier attitude to regulation, particularly driver vetting, is worrying: obviously, there's a reason why they're cheaper! I've usually found the local minicabs pretty reliable but black cabs have plenty of luggage room and facilities for wheel chairs. My experience is Uber cars don't have information in local roadworks and temporary diversions

Michael Ixer ● 1895d

The opposite is true. In a black cab you see the cost increasing but you don’t know the final cost as time is also a factor. In an Uber you know the price up front.

Freddie Francis ● 1895d

You have a valid point Craig, however I had seen customers of mine have awful experiences with Uber. And as a female when I’m coming back late at night I would always use my local cab firm or a black cab. You can also see how much it’s actually costing you in a black cab which is a bonus!

Emma Blackwell ● 1895d

The most surprising part of this for me is how black cabs are still around in 2021 and able to wield such influence?  My early days of living in London were often marred by the dreadful experience of trying to get home from a night out.  Risk a mini-cab, opt for the carnage of a night bus or try to play safe and hail a black cab.  Quickly learnt that the latter was the worst of all options -  hugely over-priced, usually on their ‘way home’ if you ever attempted to go south of the river, would take you some ridiculous circuitous route if you ever could find one to take you, and all the while subjecting you to their views on all manner of random subjects - often with a subtle under-current of racism.  Thank goodness for the Night Tube, Sat Navs and Uber!!!

Craig Fordham ● 1895d

Well, Richard, I disagree with you on this point.For one, London has an area of 1,572km2 as opposed to Oxford looking to be a zero emission zone with an area of 45.50km2.Also, London has always been (as every major city around the world) a consumer city and it is also the major wealth-creating city in the UK. The LTNs scheme had been under discussion in the DfT since August 2019 I believe, but solutions were not easy to find.  However, COVID came and gave the perfect excuse for implementing the ETO (experimental (emergency?) traffic order?) which required no prior consultation but included the "suspect" reasoning of allowing active (cannot remember the exact words but something to the effect of) active walking and keeping safe distancing....Suspect at best!The statement that "The strange part of this argument was that "the scale and ambition of the proposals, and the manner in which they were described, strongly suggest that the Mayor and TfL intended that these schemes would become permanent, once the temporary orders expired." is neither far fetched nor ridiculous, unreasonable even.  Think about the smoked salmon produced in northern Scotland, placed on lorries and driven down to Heathrow for export to the US....  ??????Farmers no longer walk ducks or geese to London.So, the solution must be to stop London being the wealth-producing centre of the country?You cannot forbid emergency services from accessing roads or residents being forbidden to reach their homes.But, I would be prepared to have a horse and cart, provided I can keep my horse in your garden.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1895d

Seems logical to me Richard, suggests the process was inappropriately used to bypass consultation etc. That said surely TFL should have enough data now to justify keeping the changes??As for your example perhaps you should look upon it a different way:The lockdown was considered temporary and for a short time when the government knew it would go on for longer and be repeated :)

Ed Robinson ● 1895d

If you look at the detail, this decision by Justice Lang is a rather strange one. In introducing the initiative, the government made the position on consultation quite clear: for experimental schemes, which is what the Covid-specific ones are, "these are used to trial schemes that may then be made permanent. Authorities must put in place monitoring arrangements, and carry out ongoing consultation once the measure is built. Although the initial implementation period can be quick, local residents and businesses should still be given an opportunity to comment on proposed changes, and the need for extra monitoring and consultation afterwards can make them a more onerous process overall." (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/reallocating-road-space-in-response-to-covid-19-statutory-guidance-for-local-authorities/traffic-management-act-2004-network-management-in-response-to-covid-19).Lang's argument was the claim that the introduction of road closures in the capital was based on guidance that was “seriously flawed," should be reconsidered and “substantially amended.” Furthermore, they were, she claimed, “not a rational response to the issues which arose as a result of the Covid-19 pandemic”.The strange part of this argument was that "the scale and ambition of the proposals, and the manner in which they were described, strongly suggest that the Mayor and TfL intended that these schemes would become permanent, once the temporary orders expired." So the schemes were ruled illegal on the basis that they might not be temporary but might be made permanent - despite TfL having made it perfectly clear that the schemes were temporary because of the Covid crisis.Now I'm not a lawyer, but ruling something illegal on the basis that it might take place seems a very dodgy argument indeed. You might as well argue that someone should be locked up not because they actually had committed a crime but might merely do so at some indeterminate point in the future.This will obviously go to appeal, so I don't think the whining taxi drivers should celebrate too much.

Richard Carter ● 1895d

But the initiative was not Khan's, it came from the DfT!!! Admitted by Grant Shapps who, by the way, put a full stop to the scheme in HJatfield, the constituency he he represents and lives in.....  Are you telling me that Khan also presides over Councils throughout the country?

Ivonne Holliday ● 1896d

Hear, hear, good old Taxi Driver's, they know London better than anybody else. Hope they put their foot down and get it changed. I have a friend in Brentford their up in arms about road restrictions as well.

Barbara Stevens ● 1896d