Forum Topic

Deal is done

According to No. 10's statement on the BBC website,"We have delivered this great deal for the entire United Kingdom in record time, and under extremely challenging conditions, which protects the integrity of our internal market and Northern Ireland’s place within it.Not too sure what "in record time" means, but it is a deal, thank goodness!!Press conference at 3.00pm today.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2146d46 Comments

Barnier has just pointed out we will not be staying in the Erasmus student exchange scheme and that was our decision.  Why?  It was a brilliant opportunity for students, whether or not language students. What will replace it?

Jonathan Callaway ● 2146d

I know, my heart sank!!It really is incomprehensible that the UK has opted out of such a beneficial education programme!!I feel sorry for all the students whose degree included an exchange under the Erasmus programme.  As you say, what will replace it? Very sad indeed.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2146d

PM just said it was too expensive (I can’t believe it was purely a cost decision) but there will be a new global programme called the Turing scheme. No details so we’ll have to wait and see what the pros and cons are.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2146d

I cannot believe it was too expensive but, I suppose, Erasmus students did not have to pay tuition fees? This is what I found about the Turing scheme....https://www.turing.ac.uk/work-turing/studentships/enrichmenthttps://www.turing.ac.uk/work-turing/studentships/enrichment/support

Ivonne Holliday ● 2146d

I think it might be a new and broader scheme than that one which is just for Turing Institute students. But further details are awaited!

Jonathan Callaway ● 2146d

Oh Happy Day!From one of my fave feelgood filmshttps://youtu.be/6zT8AyfsFmA

Sue Hammond ● 2146d

Oh but it is the biggliest and greatliest deal ever.  It is just a shame that it is worse than the one that we had before.

Philippa Bond ● 2146d

Message from Boris:I’m proud to officially announce that we’ve concluded our negotiations with the EU and secured a great deal which guarantees our sovereignty.As promised, we have taken back control of our laws, borders, money, trade and fisheries and ended any role for the European Court.Meaning that on 1st January Britain will be a fully independent nation again.This deal fully delivers on what the British public voted for in the referendum and in last year’s General Election, with:✅ No role for the European Court of Justice and no requirement to follow EU law ✅ A zero tariff and zero quota arrangement✅ Recognition of the UK’s sovereignty over our fishing waters✅ Britain outside the Single Market and Customs Union✅ Co-operation on law enforcement and emerging security challenges✅ Protections for the UK’s internal market and Northern Ireland's place within itAnd this deal will allow us to make 2021 the year we show what Global Britain means to the rest of the world: striking trade deals with new markets, reasserting ourselves as a liberal and free trading nation; and acting as a force for good in the world. So I hope you’ll support me in welcoming this historic agreement as we enter a proud new chapter in our history.Thank you for everything you have done to support our Party, your backing is how Britain has been able to reclaim its sovereignty today. Yours sincerely, Boris JohnsonP.S. Have you been at the sherry Philippa?

Sue Hammond ● 2146d

Ho Ho Ho!  I've had four alcoholic drinks since the start of the March lockdown.  So no I'm not pickled or hooked on alcohol or anything similar.The country has been led astray by people who whip up nationalism.

Philippa Bond ● 2146d

Of course Johnson dresses it up as a "great deal,", what else does anyone expect?A pity, though, that he didn't think to mention all the things we've lost through this miserable deal; there's a list of them here that is far more realistic than Johnson's silly boosterism: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/api/files/attachment/867615/EU_Membership_benefits_two_columns.pdfAnd the supposed advantages of this? We're supposedly a fully independent nation again, and we're outside the Single Market and Customs Union. Not exactly sunlit uplands, is it?

Richard Carter ● 2146d

I was just reading an article on the BBC website about Erasmus.  Just a few initial paragraphs are below:"He [Boris Johnson] said leaving Erasmus had been a "tough decision" but that under the new scheme, students would "have the opportunity... not just to go to European universities, but to go to the best universities in the world".The EU's Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier said he regretted the decision......In 2017, 16,561 UK students participated in Erasmus, while 31,727 EU nationals came to the UK."Students in the UK always had the option of studying at other universities worldwide, including the best ones as Johnson said, provided the universities had an exchange programme.  Very sad, if not unforgivable, that the Erasmus programme has been stopped.  Perhaps more students from the EU came to the UK than the other way round.  I suspect this is perhaps because the students from the EU had very good English as a second language while most British students do not have a second language.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2146d

Apologies, here is the link:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-47293927

Ivonne Holliday ● 2146d

Sue the Sherry was the best bit :-)Excuse my humour but it's a long time since I had a sherry.Some good news here as both EU and UK seem to have agreed a position on Northern Ireland.Trade may not be as frictionless as before but we were running a deficit so that part couldn't have been too difficult to get. Services details seem sparse that will be the tricky part.The question really is where are we going to go with this deal? Will the UK increase subsidies - that doesn't sound very Conservative. Will the UK decrease indirect taxation - I'm not sure of that either. Any ideas?Now would have been a good time for the opposition parties to have some policies. I wonder if 2021 will bring us any more clarity.

Ed Robinson ● 2146d

The new Turing scheme will focus on exchanges with US, Canadian and Australian universities rather than European ones where you might have to learn a foreign language.  Why not both, for the sake of a truly Global Britain?

Jonathan Callaway ● 2146d

Well, I agree that opening horizons is not a bad idea.However, the innate reluctance of British people regarding foreign languages is really going against them.Take the Scandinavians, for example, who speak at least two languages fluently, if not three or four.  It is remarkable to listen to them speak different languages effortlessly and accurately.We watched Ursula von der Leyen today switch with great ease between English and French while her mother tongue is German.If we are trying to be truly global, we should be looking at the US, Canada and Australia but more importantly, China, North Africa (for Arabic), Brazil, India (but they speak English too).One thing I would like to say, perhaps English is no longer going to be the official language in the EU....  Yes, if you want to be truly global, you must speak at the very least, two languages fluently.  Can that be done?

Ivonne Holliday ● 2146d

Would be better our education system taught languages (possibly French and Spanish) from 5 yrs onwards at school.  English is the standard language of business.

Robert Wheeler ● 2146d

It’s certainly possible but language teaching is on the decline in British schools. English is already the global language of business but if you want to sell stuff in France you’d better be able to speak French.  The same applies in other major European markets. I worked in Germany for six years and it was only subsequently that I learnt most of those I was doing business with spoke excellent English. I never even tried speaking English to them at the time. The other thing about student exchange schemes is that they rarely cover all travel costs. These can be quite low in Europe with subsidised rail cards etc but travel across the Atlantic or further afield is not for penniless students. The result will be lower take-up unless the parents can afford to plug the gap. Arguably not going to help the levelling up agenda.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2146d

It either implies rudeness on your hosts or ignorance on your part that whilst working in Germany they wouldn’t  speak English. Levelling up for most families could mean any university education never mind one that involved overseas experience.  We all need to get out of our London bubble.  If you want to sell abroad speak the language.

Robert Wheeler ● 2146d

A sober appraisal from CNN:https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/24/business/brexit-deal-economy/index.htmlThey see four main areas where we will be worse off:1. Trade barriers - not tariffs but customs costs (HMRC estimate £7.5bn annually)2. Worker shortages - all those seasonal workers from Eastern Europe will find the new immigration rules a challenge as we try to keep out low-skilled workers.  There may be limited exemptions for the NHS and care sector.3. Loss of investment - no more selling the UK as a base from which to attack the EU market.  This will affect growth.4. Impact on financial services.  The best we can hope for, in the absence of passporting, is "equivalence", a status yet to be negotiated.It's still better than no deal of course!  Some Brexiteers on this site and elsewhere argued strongly for WTO terms.  Now that really would have been ruinous and Johnson and his govt clearly recognised that.  It will be interesting to see what emerges from the 2,000 pages of the agreement that MPs get a whole day to scrutinise.  I think the full impact will only be evident well into next year and that pre-supposes we vaccinate our way out of the Covid pandemic.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2146d

I worked in Geneva for a very short period and had to hide in the cupboard when the very international workforce started declaring how many languages they spoke. 5-6 was the average I believe.

Ed Robinson ● 2146d

Ed back in the 80’s l worked for an international company in London and the standard  was 5-6 languages spoken per employee.  Bring it on.  Education for all  is what bring us up not down.

Robert Wheeler ● 2146d

Completely agree Robert. Investment in our people is key.Education throughout life too - not just the school years.

Ed Robinson ● 2146d

Thanks, Jonathan. A good summary but no surprises. I expect Ireland will gain from 3 if investors are looking for an English speaking base. My understanding (and perhaps I'm being pedandic) is that "equivalice" in financial services, as with data privacy adequacy, isn't strictly negotiable:  it's unilaterally granted by the EU commission, but is subject to ECJ rulings. "Negotiations" might be considered to be persuading the EU commission (or a working party) that one's rules and processes are adequate. However, as has happened with the US data equivalence arrangements for Safe Harbour and Privacy Shield, the ECJ can subsequently rule these not appropriate (Schrems I and II judgements); my understanding is that financial equivalency is similar? (Prepared to be corrected by a specialist on both counts!)

Michael Ixer ● 2146d

Unfortunately many of us in England struggle with our own language let alone anymore. A German data protection lawyer I worked with had better spoken and written English than most of the IT team, and when I worked on a project in Denmark as a consultant the Danish project manager kept correcting the written notes of an English programmer who worked for him. Embarrassing!

Michael Ixer ● 2146d

I also remember, some years ago when a Danish football team were playing in an international competition (I've forgotten what it was), that the Danish players all spoke better English than their English counterparts. Shaming!

Richard Carter ● 2146d

In your instance he was being paid to carry out a project not correct English grammar.  I always find it amusing that the English do not pull someone up.  You don’t need an international education scheme we just need an education that is available an open to all.

Robert Wheeler ● 2146d

I think it's not just having an education system available to all but also having one that has adequate standards. (Regading the story and thinking back around three decades I think the notes formed part of the project documentation so the PM was probably responsible for ensuring the quality of his teams work.)

Michael Ixer ● 2146d

With all the talk of the Turing Institute I thought I would have a listen to the great Tommy Flowers.An inspiration to many people from ordinary backgrounds and a good example of value of adult education and evening classes.

Ed Robinson ● 2146d

Erasmus: An exception has been made for Ireland students.

Ed Robinson ● 2145d

Including those in Northern Ireland.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2145d

In the subject of learning foreign languages, something close to my heart, here is a wonderful piece from the late John Le Carré on learning German. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/jul/02/why-we-should-learn-german-john-le-carreI sent this to friends in Germany and I was interested in one of their comments: she is a Prof at a German university and felt that the standard of German both written and spoken by her students had fallen a lot over the years - she spent more of her time correcting their grammatical errors than was ever the case before. So it’s not just us!

Jonathan Callaway ● 2145d

Lucky Northern Irish students!

Ivonne Holliday ● 2145d

"I thought I would have a listen to the great Tommy Flowers"Is there a web link?

David Ainsworth ● 2145d

It's not just us, and it's not just nowadays.From the Guardian last year:-"In the 14th century, Ranulf Higden complained about the state English was in. His words, quoted in David Crystal’s The Stories of English, were translated from the Latin by a near-contemporary, John Trevisa: “By intermingling and mixing, first with Danes and afterwards with Normans, in many people the language of the land is harmed, and some use strange inarticulate utterance, chattering, snarling, and harsh teeth-gnashing.” The [translated into English] original is as follows: “By commyxstion and mellyng furst wiþ danes and afterward wiþ Normans in menye þe contray longage ys apeyred, and som vseþ strange wlaffyng, chyteryng, harrying and garryng, grisbittyng.”

David Ainsworth ● 2145d

Blimey!  Standards have been slipping for centuries and I never knew it. I thought peak British was about 1955. Clearly not!

Jonathan Callaway ● 2145d

Sorry I was trying and cooking.Yes, I meant to say Northern Ireland.The students will also be covered by EHIC too.

Ed Robinson ● 2145d

Well, Johnson said some time ago that Northern Ireland has the best of both worlds.......

Ivonne Holliday ● 2145d

Language, it's like trying to grab the river. I am sad that we appear to have lost "grisbittyng" though.

David Ainsworth ● 2145d

Ivonne it was reported that unionist politicians were recommending getting Irish passports. Demand from NI and even other parts of the UK has been extremely high.Now we know where we stand regarding with the deal I expect that demand to grow.The deal does seem to give NI the best of both as you say but perhaps more importantly it removes pressure for them to be pushed one way or the other. Hopefully May's short term political interference and Johnson idiotic swings will have no lasting impact and the people can be given the time and opportunity to make decisions in their own time.The same goes for Starmer's speech although I may have been the only one that watched it.Let's wish them peace and give us hope that other parts of the world that are divided also find peace.

Ed Robinson ● 2145d

Sorry David just noticed your response.https://clp.bbcrewind.co.uk/b25ec8dec9904c90e4bd9dc172c16c3fApparently he retained his cockney accent

Ed Robinson ● 2144d

https://www.computer.org/publications/tech-news/research/thomas-flowers-code-breaker-wwii-colossus-machinesAbout 9 mins in here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nGT5MlZmpI

Ed Robinson ● 2144d

Thanks for the Flowers.

David Ainsworth ● 2144d

For those unable or unwilling to read the actual agreement text (mostly in indigestible legalese) I suggest this long series of tweets. Or another drink ...https://twitter.com/AntonSpisak/status/1343519072416362498. It’s obviously way better than no deal but an awful lot has not been covered or kicked down the road to be dealt with later.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2141d

Keep drinking ...😉

Sue Hammond ● 2141d

such a pleasure to learn that if i want to send my daughter in Spain a birthday or Christmas present i'll now need to fill out a customs declaration form.Good to see all that reduction in red tape taking effect!

Matt Palmer ● 2141d

Thank, Jonathan - I had a problem with the URL until I noticed the full stop at the end! A useful analysis, although it doesn't help me unravel some of the services stuff with all the cross references to UN CPCs, etc ... and, as I said elsewhere, Johnson's admitted that the financial services element isn't ideal, I think he just meant "services". I note the analysis mentions that given the time and travel constraints its quite an achievement; but that's why it what reckless not to extend trreansition and get a good deal for financial and other services? I still fail to understand how small businesses will find the time and expertise to understand some of this 😟 I'd agree with the analysis that it's good the way is left open for further negotiations but I disagree that the ECJ no longer has an involvement. The agreement doesn't mention it but the EU Q&A notes that have been produced to accompany it make clear that the ECJ ruling have to be taken account of when assessing data privacy adequacy related to the GDPR. As the US has found out with the Schrems rulings this can be disruptive;  so, given this government has emphasised the desire for the UK to be a global technology leader then if one makes the assumption that data - which underpins information, knowledge, AI and many technologies - will be key in the future (the new gold, oil or soil depending on one's view) then it's sad future developments of the GDPR, and adequacy and legal rulings on it will be made unilaterally by the EU parliament, commission and ECJ? At least, that's my interpretation...

Michael Ixer ● 2141d