Forum Topic

XR hijack the Cenotaph on Remembrance Day in climate change protest

These people disgust me.  Matt, are you proud of your mob today?https://mol.im/a/8937125

Sue Hammond ● 2189d84 Comments

Sorry for duplication. Don't know why it posted twice.

Sue Hammond ● 2189d

certainly controversial Sue!I don't see what the problem is really, how exactly is it "hijacking" a memorial about people who died in wars by displaying a banner warning about more people who will die in wars?All overblown as usual

Matt Palmer ● 2189d

People should not be tramping all over the Cenotaph on Remembrance Day or any day for that matter.  This stunt will just turn more and more people against  XR.

Sue Hammond ● 2189d

Tacky. They'll get publicity but at what cost to their cause. Many will find it insulting .Seem determined to alienate rather than convert.

Andy Pike ● 2189d

I suggest you actually watch the video on the Mail site, Sue. If you do, you'll see that, far from "trampling" over the wreaths, the two (former soldier Donald Bell and an unnamed nurse) stepped very carefully between the wreaths. This was a serious and respectful action (not a "stunt"), and it doesn't help your or the Mail's case to overreact to it in this ridiculous manner.

Richard Carter ● 2189d

They showed up, laid a wreath, had a minutes silence.whats the problem?

Matt Palmer ● 2189d

No problem as far as I am concerned.

Caroline Whitehead ● 2189d

Did XR not foresee the likely response?

David Ainsworth ● 2189d

Meanwhile, days earlier:-"On Sunday, @Unlocked_UK_ @LozzaFox defied the government – which had originally cancelled this year's Remembrance Sunday events – turned out to lay wreaths and march with a piper to the Royal Artillery memorial at Hyde Park Corner, London."Plus:-"Farage party's relaunch marked with low-key anti-lockdown protestNigel Farage and his allies have relaunched their political party, encouraging people to walk past their local war memorial on Remembrance Sunday in a low-key anti-lockdown protest that marks a fresh attempt to restore their political relevance.The leaders of the Reform UK party – renamed from the Brexit party – hope to occupy a political space until now dominated by a few rebel Conservatives at Westminster, and by conspiracy theorists on the streets and online.The party chairman, Richard Tice, and a few dozen others stood to watch an official wreath-laying ceremony at the Royal Artillery memorial on Hyde Park Corner in central London on Sunday morning, joined by curious joggers and walkers, to the surprise of those officiating who had not expected any more than a handful to turn up." (Gdn 9/11)So unpolitical.Daily Mail 9/11:-"Pictures have revealed how Prince Harry's Remembrance Sunday tribute to fallen soldiers was left unused after it was 'rebuffed' by palace chiefs.Buckingham Palace reportedly refused the Duke of Sussex's request to lay the £1,000 poppy wreath on his behalf at the Cenotaph on Sunday, because he is no longer a serving royal.Prince Harry, who spent 10 years in the Armed Forces, is said to be 'deeply saddened' by the decision, which comes after he and wife Meghan Markle announced their split from the royal family earlier this year."So unpolitical.

David Ainsworth ● 2189d

Thanks to Ms Hammond we all now know about this. I was not aware previously. These ‘events’ are of course designed to do exactly that - get people’s attention. Gammon outrage results in own-goal.

Freddie Francis ● 2189d

But whose own goal?

David Ainsworth ● 2189d

“But whose own goal?” - the ‘outraged of Putney’ and Daily Mail readers to In general.

Freddie Francis ● 2189d

Of course bad press was forseen David, lets face it XR could bring about world peace and the Daily Mail would find a way of putting a bad spin on it.As Freddie pointed out its got loads more attention thanks to the perpetually outraged DM, Sun etc.

Matt Palmer ● 2189d

One small detail difference.  The Cenotaph is in honour of people who gave the ultimate sacrifice and died for their country.  I can't recollect any XR person being in that position or ever likely to be.

Barbara Shillabeer ● 2189d

What about the 2 mins Silence. Their a load of crackpots. Might just as well have thrown something on all their graves, what an insult to think XR are more important. Unable to shut up for just ONE day.

Barbara Stevens ● 2189d

Completely wrong. They would if the draft was introduced. Not everyone volunteered during WW2 unless you were unaware. My father did volunteer but mainly to escape his family. Not for any virtuous reason st all.

Freddie Francis ● 2189d

Matt, little children want attention, obviously you have not grown up. My dad's brother was killed in WW1, only 17yrs old and in a grave in France.  The only fumes about are you dirty muck worms, Have you cleaned Quill Bridge yet.

Barbara Stevens ● 2189d

No Barbara, you said you were on the case remember?

Matt Palmer ● 2189d

It's on fbook and not one person thinks such a disgusting thing should have happened. even treading on the wreaths in the process. Put them in prison.

Barbara Stevens ● 2189d

It was at 8am this morning Barbara.... not 11am, all basically over by 8:05am

Matt Palmer ● 2189d

Matt, you want ME to clear up all the paper on the Bridge. What you scared now there's a camera on you.

Barbara Stevens ● 2189d

Barbara, you said you were arranging it all with the council and network rail, your words not mine :) Perhaps you ought to chase them up?The camera was there when the original flyposting was done, so clearly whoever did it isnt worried about cameras.

Matt Palmer ● 2189d

Well done XR!  Too many people have died and will die in pointless and unnecessary wars.  We need to think hard and choose our leaders carefully.

Philippa Bond ● 2189d

As you can clearly see from the video, there was no treading on the wreaths.

Matt Palmer ● 2189d

Those poor men in mud and bullets never knowing if they would ever see home again. If they did make it home how many were blind or missing body parts, or so traumatized never to live a proper like again, left with the shakes, mental damage, shrapnel in them. You think you can ever take away, people's real memories or what really happened. People want to remember what happened to their families it also makes you feel less sorry for yourself when you think what they went through. You can't take that away from the public, who is interested in you. It was not your day, your very sad attention seeking individuals.

Barbara Stevens ● 2189d

Exactly that.

Matt Palmer ● 2189d

It was a day of rememberence for people who have died in wars Barbara. All XR did was highlight the fact that more people are going to die in wars caused by climate change.You could read more about it at the link below if you like :)https://insideclimatenews.org/news/13062019/climate-change-global-security-violent-conflict-risk-study-military-threat-multiplier

Matt Palmer ● 2189d

Your the one's causing violence. I hope you all get locked up.

Barbara Stevens ● 2189d

*you'reXR is very specifically non-violent so not sure how you've drawn that conclusion.

Matt Palmer ● 2189d

Aren't the outraged and the Mail readers the people who need to be convinced? Not further wound up?

David Ainsworth ● 2189d

All I can do really David is refer you to a study on our tactics..https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/extinction-rebellion-protest-london-boris-johnson-climate-crisis-newspapers-b404981.html"So, what matters more? Being well-liked or being well known? Well, it depends on what you’re trying to achieve. Extinction Rebellion sits in the long lineage of campaigns which set out very deliberately to cause disruption in order to raise awareness of a perceived injustice – in this case, the climate emergency. Crucially for these campaigns, it does not matter whether they or their brand is liked or not. And we see that with Extinction Rebellion, we may not like their tactics, but is anyone seriously going to press for us to burn more fossil fuels as a result?    The evidence suggests it’s the opposite. Every time Extinction Rebellion cause disruption, they certainly attract scorn, but they also raise awareness of the climate crisis and get people talking about issues like net-zero targets in a way that no other campaign has been able to match. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter if you like Extinction Rebellion because that doesn’t affect how you feel about their issue."

Matt Palmer ● 2189d

Absolutely disgusting

Clifford Cowell ● 2189d

Unfortunately we can't ask those who died in wars but I wonder: superficially hi-jacking their commemorations for publicity might seem disrespectful but if we could ask those who died so we could could have a better life would they be dismayed at the way we're trashing the planet in spite of the scientific evidence we have?Unfortunately I can no longer discuss this with my father who served in the second world war (fortunately he survived 4 years in a POW camp and met and married my mother otherwise I wouldn't be here to make annoying posts 🙂) but he was always ambivalent about commemorative events - he felt we should remember the dead but wondered if these grand affairs were to satisfy the consciences of the leaders who got us into these wars because they couldn't resolve things peaceably, and thought the money could be better spent on helping and providing better pensions for the war wounded and widows.

Michael Ixer ● 2189d

Sorry you find it so disgusting Clifford but if an ex-soldier doesn't have the right to tell the truth at the cenotaph then who does?

Matt Palmer ● 2189d

A predictable over-reaction by the usual suspects.  XR are once again reminding us this is a climate emergency which if not addressed urgently will lead to far more deaths than any war in history.  They were being provocative but remained respectful throughout.  On that basis I find it very difficult to feel any sort of outrage here.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2189d

Oh dear. Dear Oscar put this whole not so merry go round debate in context when he drolled,"There is only one thing worse than being talked about and that is not being talked about"

Hugh Thompson ● 2189d

Perhaps some forum member's are not bothered what you have to say we have our own thoughts on the subject. It was not a day for XR it was for our WAR dead. Also it's all on fbook any people feel the same disgusting, and yes they did tread over the wreaths to take centre stage. So all the Putney Soc feel the same do they.

Barbara Stevens ● 2189d

Well FIL a D-Day veteran said that the war was the best time of his life.  However he would never ever have wished another war on anyone and as one of the first to liberate a concentration camp he never lost his disgust at the way in which man can treat his fellow man.War is not just a part of the past.  It is a part of the present.  A most important part of remembering and not forgetting is that we learn from history in the hope that great effort will be made by all people to avoid future unnecessary war and suffering. 

Philippa Bond ● 2189d

I hope you don't consider Facebook to be a reputable news agency!

Philippa Bond ● 2189d

Barbara, I think it is perfectly clear I am speaking for myself, not the Putney Society or anybody else.  I wear a poppy and have done every year since I was a youngster. My late mother would not expect anything less and she lost her first husband and a brother in WW2.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2189d

Barbara, there was no treading on wreaths, you can see it very clearly in the video.If you have sight of another video that shows different please post the link.

Matt Palmer ● 2189d

He would have had to do acrobats to get over all the wreaths and he was touching the wreath below and how disgusting to think yours should be centre stage.

Barbara Stevens ● 2189d

'Well FIL a D-Day veteran said that the war was the best time of his life'Christ on a bike! My uncle  was also one of the first British servicemen to liberate Bergen Belsen. My father was a POW for almost 5 years in the Far East and I can assure your FIL it certainly wasn't the best time of HIS life.

Lucille Grant ● 2189d

XR desecrating the cenotaph. Just for you Phillipa.

Barbara Stevens ● 2189d

Desecrating the centotaph by putting a wreath on it.....mmmm

Matt Palmer ● 2189d

The video quick clearly shows the truth Barbara. :)

Matt Palmer ● 2189d

Barbara, I’ll give you an example of disgusting. Women in WW1 handing white feathers to unenlisted men.

Freddie Francis ● 2189d

Here's the official press release for this action, perhaps those of you who haven't already made up your minds that this was a disgusting thing to do could read it :)https://extinctionrebellion.uk/2020/11/11/honour-their-sacrifice-extinction-rebellion-veteran-pays-respects-at-the-cenotaph-with-banner-warning-climate-change-means-war/

Matt Palmer ● 2189d

It doesn't matter how much you explain it, Matt, the keyboard warriors here love to manufacture a supposed scandal out of an entirely rational action. Some people just don't think, and any old garbage in the Daily Mail or on Facebook will set them off.

Richard Carter ● 2189d

LOL. I know Richard but I do like to at least try to engage!

Matt Palmer ● 2189d

Hello Matt,I am in two minds about this.  When I saw the first picture, I could see an army officer placing a wreath above those already laid at the Cenotaph.  The picture was posted by Sue at about 12.14pm on 11 November 2020.My first thought was, why was the ER wreath not placed on a tall tripod or similar in front of the steps of the Cenotaph?  The message would have been there for all to see very clearly without having to climbing the steps.  But then, I read that the ER protest happened at 8.00am and finished by 8.05am.  Fine.  But how come the Remembrance Day wreaths were already laid on the Cenotaph steps?I must be missing something!!!

Ivonne Holliday ● 2188d

those wreaths were laid on remembrance Sunday Ivonne

Matt Palmer ● 2188d

Ooooops, I certainly missed something really big!!!  Thank you Matt!

Ivonne Holliday ● 2188d

@Andy  12.11.20 @12.40Yes Andy XR have received much publicity and 98% of it is bad, so a major fail by this bunch of imbeciles.  Every time this mob pull a stunt, like blocking bridges and roads etc they always provide a spokesperson to speak on LBC to try and defend their actions, but thus time nobody was available.  What a surprise...not.  I was listening last night when this stunt was being discussed again on LBC and I didn't hear one caller who applauded XR and this disgusting show of disrespect. 

Sue Hammond ● 2188d

@ Lucille - you deliberately only selected a part of my post.  Many people never spoke about the war (or wars). It is not even just the two 'world' wars which are commemorated at the cenotaph or just 'our' war dead.  The camaraderie between those who fought side by side in very difficult circumstances lasted their whole lives. Much of the gulf in our class ridden society was reduced for a time if not for ever between them as everyone worked together -something that would never ever had happened otherwise.  As was the racism.Most of the generations who fought in WW1 and WW2 lost friends or family or both.  The history projects that have taken place recently have helped to remember them and many of us will remember those who were also killed in the shipyards and factories or in their own homes etc. I've met people who've never eaten rice again since the war in the Far East.Most would agree that war should be avoided where possible and not glorified. 

Philippa Bond ● 2188d

Lucuille, do you think that those who had a 'good war' should be ashamed to admit it? Solidiers in Japan and Burma absolutely had a horrific experience but many were more than fortunate. My father certainly was. A boy brought up in a welsh farming area with little possibility of leaving it until the war, joins the RAF at the first opportunity, even though from what he could tell, his father had had it rough in WW1. Gets posted around the UK and then spends the majority of the war having a fantastic time in various locations in South Afirica, which was used to train pilots. Never stopped talking about it.

Freddie Francis ● 2188d

@Richard 20.56The protest has been widely criticised in the media but you always seem to be fixated on the DM for some reason.  No idea about FB because I only bother to go on to follow a couple of animal charities that I support.  However, do you, or rather the Guardian 🙄 think XR's protest at the Cenotaph was acceptable?

Sue Hammond ● 2188d

Well my Uncle was in the Air Force and was shot in the arm twice. I'm sure he thought it was a laugh a minute, I don't think.

Barbara Stevens ● 2188d

Actually i haven't seen critisism outside of the right wing press and the usual establishment types.

Matt Palmer ● 2188d

Freddie, I'm not sure anyone had a good war as such. My father spent over four years in a German POW camp working in an open cast coal mine most of the time and on very limited rations. It was hard and he didn't know when, or if it, it would finish. I'd have to say, although being forced to work against was against the Geneva convention, unlike POWs held by the Japanese his treatment didn't seem to be deliberately cruel and some of the time when working seemed to be supervised by German civilians - old men and women, I assume the younger men were off fighting. He didn't talk about it much except at Christmas after a few whiskeys.What he did talk about was the boat from the UK going via South Africa, visiting Cape Town, his time in Egypt where - as a despatch rider - he was able to visit the pyramids when off duty, and his time in Crete exploring the island when not running messages between UK and ANZAC forces until he was captured by the German Army.My father's POW camp was near Löbau, not far from Dresden. I'm not sure how much he saw of the aftermath of the firebombing of that city when he was making his way West across Germany to get home but he always was doubtful about that action, particularly as it took place so close to the end of the war and mainly targeted civilians.So for my father, who was orphaned during the 1918 flu pandemic and brought up in authority children's homes, the war provided an opportunity to visit places that he wouldn't have otherwise dreamed of, but it did come at a cost of wasted years and doubts about authority.

Michael Ixer ● 2188d

Freddie, I'm not sure anyone had a good war as such. My father spent over four years in a German POW camp working in an open cast coal mine most of the time and on very limited rations. It was hard and he didn't know when, or if it, it would finish. I'd have to say, although being forced to work against was against the Geneva convention, unlike POWs held by the Japanese his treatment didn't seem to be deliberately cruel and some of the time when working seemed to be supervised by German civilians - old men and women, I assume the younger men were off fighting. He didn't talk about it much except at Christmas after a few whiskeys.What he did talk about was the boat from the UK going via South Africa, visiting Cape Town, his time in Egypt where - as a despatch rider - he was able to visit the pyramids when off duty, and his time in Crete exploring the island when not running messages between UK and ANZAC forces until he was captured by the German Army.My father's POW camp was near Löbau, not far from Dresden. I'm not sure how much he saw of the aftermath of the firebombing of that city when he was making his way West across Germany to get home but he always was doubtful about that action, particularly as it took place so close to the end of the war and mainly targeted civilians.So for my father, who was orphaned during the 1918 flu pandemic and brought up in authority children's homes, the war provided an opportunity to visit places that he wouldn't have otherwise dreamed of, but it did come at a cost of wasted years and doubts about authority.

Michael Ixer ● 2188d

Oops, bounced the submit button on the new interface, so sorry about the duplication!

Michael Ixer ● 2188d

This is for forum members who think ER should be jailed. Should Activists be jailed for their shameful protest? To phone YES they should 0901 133 4440  cost 50p. or text Yes DXYES to 84988. Daily Express, well they had my vote.

Barbara Stevens ● 2188d

Unfortunately, Barbara, it doesn't work like that. They have to be prosecuted for an offence, found guilty if they've broken a law and sentenced by a judge or magistrate in line with sentencing guidelines. I'm not sure ER as an organisation can be prosecuted, just members who act in its name. (I'm sure someone with legal knowledge can clarify that.) 

Michael Ixer ● 2188d

Well, it is interesting, isn't it? Both Tony Blair and David Cameron, the "liberators" of Iraq and Libya, were at the Cenotaph, but apparently there is no desire to jail them for anything.-----------------------"Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel."

David Ainsworth ● 2188d

Ignoring the DM reporting that seems to be at odds with the video on their website, I wonder if the wreath was simply layed next to the others as opposed to on top it could have been more appropriate, but I'm not XR and perhaps their point is that the premature dead will be more than the great war and subsequent wars - hence the symbolism.Numbers were huge on all sides and the non European numbers are often forgotten by those that think it was just Europe (not a criticisms of any one here just MSM). My grandfather was in the Army, I recall stories about India and Palistine, but as others have said the contents was filtered for young ears. My uncle was in the Korean war and the only thing he mentioned to me was being bombed by the US but I guess friendly fire is pretty standard when the US are on your side. My dad being slightly younger than my uncle didn't see any action. But he was lucky when he and a couple of lads were larking around jumping over the Hong Kong/China border only to later realise a red army soldier had them in their sights. Thankfully one assumes the soldier only saw young lads fooling around. Would it be the same today?Sadly although I was pleasantly surprised by the poppies along roads outside London, I have seen the HoC vote over the decades, regardless of party, for war without concern for our soldiers who do the best with what they have. But how many of those politicians of different colours follow up on the cost which is paid by our servicemen (and women) and their families? If we do not value the lives and well being of our own how can we do the same for others?

Ed Robinson ● 2188d

LOL.I hate to break it to you Barbara but the action was actually given the go-ahead by the police in advance. Hence there were no arrests.Not sure what they could have been charged with anyway, feel free to offer up some suggestions though.

Matt Palmer ● 2187d

@ Sue"do you, or rather the Guardian 🙄 think XR's protest at the Cenotaph was acceptable?" I certainly support the protest, but I have no idea what the Guardian thinks or why your question is at all relevant to anything."you always seem to be fixated on the DM for some reason"Well, one reason would be that the original post included a specific link to the Daily Mail 😸😸😸! Now, remind me who posted that originally?

Richard Carter ● 2187d

Here's quite a nice video for Barbara and Sue to ignorehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj8kFAPuHHk&feature=share

Matt Palmer ● 2187d

Ed asks "if the wreath was simply layed next to the others as opposed to on top it could have been more appropriate"  I don't think it would make a bit of difference: there are people out there who look out anything to be outraged at. I believe the term is "snowflakes."

Richard Carter ● 2187d

How can you use the term snow flakes we are talking about our family members who died in the war. Who gave birth to you Richard, you obviously have no respect for any of your family members or relations who died. Who will let you into Heaven.

Barbara Stevens ● 2187d

Barbara, I think it should be possible to take a broader view of this whatever one’s family history. As it happens my father volunteered in 1939 and served in the army in North Africa, Palestine and several other countries until 1945 and my mother lost her first husband and a brother during the war. But I am not outraged by what XR did, in fact they made their point while paying equal respect to those killed in combat as anyone else would.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2187d

They put themselves first. That's not respectful.

Barbara Stevens ● 2187d

erm, in what way?

Matt Palmer ● 2187d

Exactly.  I really couldn't disagree more with that last statement of Barbara's.  If we looked deeper into our family trees we would probably all find out more about our families. Local history research done into the names on the monuments and plaques in our churches and on our greens tells us more about families local at that time and may well tell us of who was lost in the "two great wars" but the British military have not only been involved in those wars.  There have been many others - and luckily most not in the British Isles.  It was also sad this year not to see so many of the Commonwealth representatives at the Cenotaph in the scaled down service.  They fought and still work and fight alongside our British forces.

Philippa Bond ● 2186d

Philippa what relevance has what you have just put on here to them putting their wreath above all the others. Nothing.

Barbara Stevens ● 2186d

Well there wasn't any room below the others Barbara, surely you're not suggesting we moved other wreaths? Shocking!

Matt Palmer ● 2186d

under new sentencing guidelines people who damage poppy wreaths and deface memorials will face prison

Barbara Shillabeer ● 2185d

Not the case here. Nothing damaged, nothing defaced, just one extra poppy wreath and a few faces out of joint.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2185d

And as the police gave the go-ahead for the action there wouldn't be any reason to arrest anyway.

Matt Palmer ● 2185d

And it sounds like it was done with the full knowledge of the police and appropriate respect. Not quite the same as yobs spray painting memorials and trashing wreaths? I really don't see what the problem is, other that the real problem of certain newspaper proprietors ignoring the science because it's inconvenient  financially for them and their business friends and generating fake news. 

Michael Ixer ● 2185d

Barbara Stevens ● 2184d

That's your most cogent contribution yet, Barbara !

Richard Carter ● 2184d

Stop press. Person who likes to call people snowflakes and sheeples turns out to be a gammon. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gammon_(insult)

Freddie Francis ● 2184d