Forum Topic

It matters not whether laws are broken - all that matters is who breaks them

Two cases in point. 1) The right wing yobbos who had their own mini riot against immigration Sunday broke the law in many ways - including attacking a member of the emergency services.2) the government has admitted today that its going to break international law by rewriting the withdrawal bill. (Brandon Lewis in parliament today)So where's the outrage Sue and Barbara?

Matt Palmer ● 2037d31 Comments

The government has published a one-page paper attempting to justify the trade bill's breaking of international law by saying national law trumps it, has been absolutely eviscerated by Professor Mark Elliott, who described it as 'risible.'
Full details here:   https://mobile.twitter.com/ProfMarkElliott/status/1304076133827309569
But a rather more succinct demolition is provided by this cartoon:

Richard Carter ● 2035d

World population growth is slowing.  It was over 2% p.a. in the late 1960s but is now just over 1%.  Grand total today is still about 7.8bn total.Lots of stats on https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/China's growth rate is slowing quite quickly and they will be overtaken by India by 2050 while the fastest growth rates seem to be in Africa (Nigeria for example) and countries like Indonesia.Population growth per se is not so much the key factor in my view as consumption rates, which are expanding quickly in some countries where the sale of cars, fridges and air conditioners is rising rapidly.  Making such things at the very least minimal consumers of energy might be a more realistic target than trying to stop people wanting them.Renewable energy is replacing fossil fuel energy slowly but surely.  It will probably take decades but that will be contribute to slowing global CO2 emissions.  In the first quarter of 2020 a record 47% of UK energy came from renewables.  The trend is rising - remarkable growth of the last decade, much of it from onshore and offshore wind.  Gas is down to 31% and coal less than 4%.See https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/894953/Electricity_June_2020.pdf

Jonathan Callaway ● 2035d

@Matt 09.09.2020 10.17"I think we can all agree that the climate and ecological emergency is more important than Brexit?"With respect Matt that is a ridiculous comparison to make.  Brexit could be reversed in years to come but the damage that's already been done to the planet cannot. However we get the message, and so have the Govt. It has already pledged to make the country carbon neutral by 2050, what more do you want Boris to do?  Personally I can't see how this will be achieved but then I'm a realist, not a dreamer.  Will everyone give up their central heating and trendy wood burners, fit solar panels, buy an electric car and stop flying?  These are just a few of the environmental changes that would need to be made and they will not happen in 30 years, if ever.The biggest threat to our planet is population growth which is the big fat elephant in the room.  I have never heard XR speaking out about this, why not?  I admit that I tend to switch off once they start droning on so if I have missed it please correct me.  China and India have the biggest population growth and are also the worst polluters so why isn't XR protesting outside their London embassies?  Better still why doesn't XR go to those countries and demonstrate there?  XR has some very wealthy backers in the CEF so the money isn't a problem.  However after their latest stunt in trying to disrupt our free press XR are in danger of losing a considerable amount of financial support.

Sue Hammond ● 2035d

Trying to predict what might happen over the next decade is difficult. Ten years a go did Brexit look realistic? It's definitely possible that the UK's departure from it might strengthen the EU, and there's also a scenario where the chaos caused by a no deal Brexit and an economic decline caused by a failed US trade deal (if the Democrats win the presidency and a majority in the Senate in November) make rejoining the EU attractive to the UK ... It's also unpredictable what fallout there might be from the pandemic in two to three years time and how that might affect the global political scene. Could the Chinese economy end up far stronger than the US one if they've handled the pandemic better; might Putin fall from favour if his handling of Covid and vaccines is a disaster? It will be an interesting decade - a race to get back to the Moon between Elon Musk/NASA and the Chinese? Or would a Biden presidency cut NASA's budget?

Michael Ixer ● 2035d

I might add that the Grauniad event journos also believed the EU has probably been strengthened by the loss of the UK - we were always the awkward one anyway. Prof Menon felt that the Covid support package, strongly resisted by the Frugal Four, Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark and Austria, would not have been approved if we had still been members. The obvious tensions within the eurozone (north v south) and on democratic norms (east v west) were there anyway and get subsumed by the belief all 27 have in the benefits of the single market - as the UK is finding in the EU’s limited flexibility in the trade talks.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2035d

There was a Grauniad Live event last night on the prospects of a no deal Brexit. Three journos and an academic. They all still believe the odds are slightly in favour of some sort of deal being hammered out in the next six weeks - but that anything short of staying in the single market and customs union will have a negative effect on the economy for maybe up to 10 years. On the future of the UK it was interesting that the Irish journo (Lisa O’Carroll) thought a border poll in NI was at least a decade away. She did point out that the so-called East German rule applies to NI - automatic membership of the EU if unity is voted for.  The issue in her view is that any change to NI’s status will need the consent of Unionists. The East German rule does not apply to Scotland where there is an even stronger desire to stay in the EU.  If they vote for independence they will have to apply to join the EU which means signing up to join the euro and the real prospect of a hard border between England and Scotland. The SNP have yet to address these huge challenges and ironically, in the view of the academic (Anand Menon, Professor of European Politics and Foreign Affairs and clearly that dreaded creature, an expert!) he sees the UK government deploying pro union arguments that will be the exact opposite of those they deployed in the Brexit debate.The breakup of the UK is a real possibility as an unintended consequence of Brexit, but it may take longer (and be more painful) that some expect.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2035d

I totally agree Michael.  I imagine Putin is rubbing his hands in delight with all this mess - which he himself helped create...

Ivonne Holliday ● 2036d

One of the reasons I was against Brexit was because I believed it was EU membership by both the UK and Ireland which facilitated the GFA, and that EU membership by both parties was a prerequisite for creating and necessary to maintain the GFA. I feel vindicated in that view given the difficulty that both May and Johnson have had trying to get around what is possibly impossible without a jeopardising the GFA. I fear we're getting very close to the disintegration of the UK. The danger is it could trigger a disintegration of the EU ... and we know what's happened in the past when Europe is fragmented ... a weak Europe and a strong, aggressive Russia; is that what Brexiteers wanted?

Michael Ixer ● 2036d

Yes, breaking agreements do have consequences.We need a FTA with EU much more than a FTA with the US.But endangering the Good Friday Agreement is beyond ridiculous, if not totally stupid!

Ivonne Holliday ● 2036d

Breaking agreements can have consequences ...(Still we don't need a US trade deal)https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-us-uk-trade-deal-nancy-pelosi-good-friday-agreement-b421226.html

Michael Ixer ● 2036d

And more hypocrisy from the government: Matt Hancock was asked today on Times Radio whether he was comfortable with a minister saying the UK was willing to break international law, he replied: “I am.”And then, later in the same interview, he was asked if individuals would be allowed to break the new laws on social distancing “in a limited and specific way” – the way the government claims to be planning to do with the EU Withdrawal Agreement. This time he disagreed.“No, this is incredibly important for keeping people safe, it is incredibly important for stopping the spread and therefore protecting education, protecting work," he said.

Richard Carter ● 2036d

... quite apart from the serious question raised by asserting that the government was "acting in the best interests of our country." I hardly think it's in our best interests to be a country that signs an international agreement only to repudiate it 9 months later ("we agreed it at the time but now we've read it, we don't agree with it"): as some Democratic senators have pointed out, this action jeopardises the Good Friday Agreement, and that is a reckless act when we are trying to arrive at a trade agreement with the USA.

Richard Carter ● 2036d

Matt. There do appear to be laws but I think authorities are more likely to deport rather than prosecute an offender?

Michael Ixer ● 2036d

Matt - Some organisations have chosen to lobby the advertisers of publications that may have appear to demonise immigrants.No violence, no law breaking just lobbying.When the story becomes about the messenger and not the message then you have to ask is it effective?Of course lobbying also works the other way around..

Ed Robinson ● 2036d

"The examples you quote are a one-off event and the Govt acting in the best interests of our country."Phew! That's alright then. Carry on Bozo old boy, mum's the word, we aint seen nuffink, we woz somewhere else, wink wink.

Freddie Francis ● 2036d

Not a member of XR, or even a hard left greenieBut you cannot say that stuff like this is ok.  This damage is happening everywhere and is blatantly caused by the western world https://www.amnesty.org.uk/slick-pr-cannot-disguise-shell-devastating-oil-pollution-nigeria-niger-deltaThis is disgusting, yes we read about stuff like this happening and then move on and forgetPeople in poorer countries, as well as the done damage, are forgotten about and left to live in in as well as exploitedShould we not apply decent working practices everywhere we work? Could that happen here? So why is it OK elsewhere?Nothing is doneDon’t you think something should be?

Emma Blackwell ● 2036d

I doubt the government breaking an international agreement that they negotiated and agreed to in such a blatant, public manner is likely to be in the UK's long term interest. I'm sure China is breaking the agreement with the UK over Hong Kong because it's in China's interest, and the US withdrawing from the Paris agreement is in the short term interest of US business leaders and some shareholders ...

Michael Ixer ● 2036d

In my view they are equally important Matt.

Lucille Grant ● 2036d

XR are consistently breaking the law in the best interests of the country Sue.I think we can all agree that the climate and ecological emergency is more important than Brexit?

Matt Palmer ● 2036d

@MattI don't condone anyone breaking the law but it happens.  The examples you quote are a one-off event and the Govt acting in the best interests of our country.  XR consistently break the law and that's the difference.

Sue Hammond ● 2036d

As I understand it there's no such thing as 'illegal' immigration? If there was all the so called illegals would be charged with a crime and banged up wouldnt they? That's why I didnt use the term 'illegal immigration'. I could well be wrong though.The police did apparently skateboard and dance during the April 2019 rebellion. That was after we moved from the 'ignore' phase into the 'laugh' phase. I think its pretty clear after October when the police imposed an illegal blanket section 14 on the whole of London that we are well and truly into the 'fight' (in a non violent way) phaseFirst they ignore youThen the laugh at youThen they fight youThen you win

Matt Palmer ● 2036d

I'm interested in how a demonstration is going to stop illegal immigration? In the UK we're all aware of it from MSM. Do they hope the people smugglers and refugees from Syria and Afghanistan who are being being bombed, or those in economically deprived areas will see satellite TV and say "oh, the British are demonstrating against us, better not go there"? I mean it's not as though the current government want it, they even deport legal immigrants who are UK citizens!

Michael Ixer ● 2037d

Matt I would like to point out your error.The group you refer to were protesting against illegal immigration and not immigration.Furthermore the Police were not skate boarding and break dancing with this group like they have done with XR in the past, so I agree with you that different groups are treated differently by the police.

Ash Jones ● 2037d

Silence speaks volumes. I have a feeling the government might just row back from this. There are more than a few Tories uncomfortable about the implications of this, not just the former PM. And tomorrow we have PMQs and I do believe there is quite a good lawyer in charge of the Labour Party nowadays.  I hope the current PM reads his brief otherwise it could get very messy.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2037d

And STILL there's no comment from the Brexiteers here. I wonder why?

Richard Carter ● 2037d

Yes it is easy to forget that it was THIS Govt's law.

Philippa Bond ● 2037d

Like i said, its not the law you break, its who breaks the law that matters.

Matt Palmer ● 2037d

The interesting thing with the government planning to break international law - which was admitted to in parliament and has led to the resignation of the government's senior lawyer (good to now someone has principles) - is that this was an agreement that this government negotiated and freely entered into! To me it looks like an admission of incompetence saying - oops, this isn't what we wanted, we screwed up - better cheat. One decade Bullingdon Club members are trashing restaurants, a few decades on they're trashing international agreements. The difference is, in the first instance Pater pays, now we pay when the economy tanks ... makes XR look like pillars of society? :-)

Michael Ixer ● 2037d

Theresa May was very cool calm and collected in pointing out to them the error of their ways in pressuring the Europeans like this.  It's very bad form.  With XR when you have News Corp which owns so many newspaper titles and very little about climate change appears in any them then you can see why.I noticed that James Murdoch left the family business at the beginning of the year as he an his wife did not agree with the organisation's views on climate change and how global warming may have exacerbated the devastating Australian fires.

Philippa Bond ● 2037d

Well for the purposes of debate it would seem to choose people that have diametrically opposing views wouldn't it?Come on Barbara, loosen up a bit, lets have some fun. :)

Matt Palmer ● 2037d

Matt any of your posts I will not be replying too as you are an attention seeker you are picking Sue and myself out only because we think differently to you. You are an attention seeker just like ER. I'm sure Sue can put it better than me, but won't wast her time.

Barbara Stevens ● 2037d