Forum Topic

Councils must stop abusing my green roads cash

Grant Shapps is blaming the Councils for the mess created with the low traffic neighbourhoods trial.  He should take some responsibility too because it was his doing; please see the title of the article, not the link.  I cannot believe so many Councils got it that wrong, but more importantly, they all got it wrong in the same way.  https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/09/05/councils-must-stop-abusing-green-roads-cash/

Ivonne Holliday ● 2033d44 Comments

Sorry Ed, on the News tonight, it showed all the large planters, Tooting being removed onto lorries. I didn't mean they had planters in DHR. It will probably be on the London News at 10o/c.

Barbara Stevens ● 2027d

Ahhh!  Thank you for letting us know!So, one rule for them and another for us still applies!!!Well done DC, you are to be despised for ever!

Ivonne Holliday ● 2027d

Wholeheartedly agree!

Ivonne Holliday ● 2027d

Barbara on DHR the signs have just been covered up with black plastic - possibly bin bags.There was no planters on the DHR LTN - just some plastic water filled bollards which were moved out of the way as soon as they were installed from what I can gather.When I cycled past Putney Park Lane a few days ago - there was a chauffeur driven car. I assume someone important was speaking to one of the resident (perhaps they should have cycled or had a chauffeur driven tandem). Anyway the road closed sign was moved out of the way even then and never put back.

Ed Robinson ● 2027d

The whole thing seems to be a mess across the country, not just TfL, WBC, etc in London but places like Liverpool, Trafford, Manchester ...and seems to have been instigated by a ministerial scheme:https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8723969/Sadiq-Khans-council-SCRAPS-33million-green-traffic-scheme-causing-chaos.htmlA bit pass the parcel but I think the buck stops at the transport ministry?

Michael Ixer ● 2027d

Ed, do not know what they did in DHR just heard from friends loads of complaints. Heard from friend who lives in Wandsworth they had been demonstrating in Tooting with friends. Couldn't believe all the large planters in the roads being removed, another waste of money.

Barbara Stevens ● 2027d

Yes I heard thank you Barbara.It would be interesting to know who came up with the design for West Putney LTN and publish some thinking behind it.I do not mean high level waffle but what made them put the No Entry half way down DHR and closure points on Huntingfield & Parkstead Roads?Perhaps they had a wacky day!Lessons definitely need to be learnt.I still think lots of sensible improvements could be made - but probably small changes may be better.A bit more Hansai & Kaizen and less KaiKaku - if I have got my Japanese right!

Ed Robinson ● 2027d

Don't know if you know Ed, but Tooting have given in as well, everybody out demonstrating, Up the revolution.

Barbara Stevens ● 2027d

Hello Ed,Thank you for your posting.  I think the whole LNT is a very ill-thought-out scheme and its implementation is shambolic and diabolical.  Closing streets in a way that residents can't get to them is disgraceful.  The problem with these closures is that residents do need their rubbish collecting, some houses will be visited by WBC's vans for repairs for example, residents need their post delivered and also their online shopping delivered. Emergency services have been unable to reach the addresses they need to get to.  And I could go on.One possible solution would be to put barriers in and issue residents and relevant people a pass that can open the barriers and then close them as they enter or leave.  Speeding is an issue that needs enforcement which sadly does not happen.Perhaps we should have rickshaws? Or go back to horse and cart/carriage? 

Ivonne Holliday ● 2028d

Broadly agree with Ed on this.I has the look of someone just plonking down a load of barriers and expecting everything to just magically work. My impression is the council have just decided to stick some stuff in place for 6 months and then at the end of it declare it as unsuccessful.It really needs positive engagement from both the residents and the local councillors to recognise there are some problems and try to build it into something that works properly.

Matt Palmer ● 2028d

Hi Ivonne,I had a quick cycle around before to check the signs and there is still one "No Access" sign missing on Putney Heath according to the published plan.The two closure points on the plan (Huntingfield Road & Putney Park Lane) are also not closed.Vehicles are passing through the DHR no entry signs willy-nilly including a WBC van (witnessed by all 4 of us)!On the plus we all agreed that the scheme had been badly implemented by WBC. On other issues I think it's fair to say that there was a difference of opinion.Stepping back it is interesting that COVID-19 has resulted in traffic reduction but speeding on a lot of roads has increased. The relationship between traffic volume and speed is a complex one. A reduction in traffic volume does not necessarily lead to safer roads as recent stats and even country roads have shown.I would like to see safe practical solutions whereas others may justify any increased accident risks so long as traffic volumes are reduced.My worry is no one is willing to take ownership of the current scheme and this will make it harder to convince people of any changes going forward.

Ed Robinson ● 2029d

Please let us know how you get on!Apparently the no entry signs (or equivalent) for the parade on URR have been taken down and the repaving will be done in sections, so people now can drive to the parade to do some shopping. It will help those independent shops enormously!!!

Ivonne Holliday ● 2029d

Great :) junction with parkstead road and dover house at 10am :)

Matt Palmer ● 2030d

Thanks Matt,10 am will be fine for me.

Ed Robinson ● 2030d

Hi Ed, I'm going for a tour in the morning with someone from DHERA if you want to come along! 10am if you can make it.

Matt Palmer ● 2030d

I am not surprised you are confused!!  Ha ha ha!!  Imagine having two parallel roads named the same!What I do not know, or understand, is that the Council is advertising that a skip will be placed on Putney Park Lane and residents are invited to dispose of their goods (furniture, etc) for free on 20 September 2020...  ?????  How are people going to carry heavy furniture to a skip which, according to Google, will right in the middle distance from either URR or Putney Heath, with no access by road, be it the paved PPL or the gravelled PPL?

Ivonne Holliday ● 2030d

Matt - I can always take you on a cycling tour (excluding school pick up drop off times).To go over what has been done and what possibly could be done to getter a proper LTN.

Ed Robinson ● 2030d

oh, i knew there was a road parallel to it but i had no idea it shared the name!

Matt Palmer ● 2030d

Confusingly there's an asphalt Putney Park Lane that runs parallel to the gravel one. It's also in two sections (either side of The Pleasance) and, even more confusingly, there are two more roads that branch off this also called Putney Park Lane up at the Northern end.

John Kettlekey ● 2030d

Still confused sorry :( Putney Park lane has always been a (mildly abused) no through road anyway hasnt it?Maybe i should go for a walk and take a look!

Matt Palmer ● 2030d

Philippa: "Is there a problem with non-updated satnavs?"Yes - especially speed limits.It is clear some drivers are ignoring the signs and others are seeing them too late.But getting back on subject the DHR scheme does not reclaim any road space for cyclists or pedestrians.It doesn't seem to meet the government published guidelines.It is a disappointing missed opportunity - where cyclists are going to get the blame but no benefit. A lose-lose situation :(

Ed Robinson ● 2030d

No - Sorry Matt - cooking any texting never ends well.By design part of Huntingfield Road and part of Putney Park Lane were made into a cul-de-sacs with the roads closed off.No turning point has been provided at the end of the run where the road is closed.Huntingfield Road is not very wide (2 lanes with 1 lane taken up with parked cars including disabled bays.Putney Park Lane is only one lane.Residents, visitors, deliveries & services have no choice but to reverse out which is dangerous!I just looked and both closure points have been moved so they are no longer closing the road. I'm not sure who by - possibly residents. I will ask WBC for comment.It looks as if WBC are now collecting data on a configuration that is no longer valid. This will lead to invalid and misleading assumptions.

Ed Robinson ● 2030d

I think what you're trying to tell me (i havent been down DHR to see it) is that there's no signage at either end of DHR, so basically you can start driving down the road and then you hit a no entry sign and no obvious way of turning round?If so, I agree that sounds a bit ridiculous.

Matt Palmer ● 2030d

No Matt you miss the point.They have blocked two roads off with no end turning point. So residents, visitors, deliveries, services now have to reverse back!

Ed Robinson ● 2030d

I think the biggest problem with all these schemes over London is that frighteningly drivers just drive expecting everything to be the same and manage not to notice things - or don't believe or want to believe them - in this case new signs.  'Road Closed' signs often appear when utility companies are digging up the road.  We don't necessarily get any notice beforehand.It would seem that some of those chalk signs or extra temporary signs are necessary to catch the attention of motorists on autopilot.Is there a problem with non-updated satnavs?

Philippa Bond ● 2030d

hmmm, i'm not sure i agree. People are reversing now because they are not fully aware of the scheme. Presumably as it becomes better known less people will go down that way?That said it does sound like the signage needs improvement.I don't think you can magically expect these things to work from day one, sure there will be problems and hopefully local residents can make suggested improvements to the council.Surely the aim should be to improve upon the scheme rather than just scrap it?

Matt Palmer ● 2030d

Matt: "like this need time to bed in"No amount of bedding in is going to alter the fact that reversing is a dangerous manoeuvre. Dangerous to vehicles, cyclists, pedestrians and hedgehogs!Ignoring through traffic - this scheme by design means that lorries, vans and cars expected to reverse back from a closure point possibly several hundred yards and around abend!There should be serious questions for whoever was responsible for that decision!

Ed Robinson ● 2030d

Ed i'm not particularly defending the scheme, I dont really know enough about it. I'd be very interested to know what DHERA think about it and I agree John that things like this need time to bed in, people shouldn't make snap judgements.

Matt Palmer ● 2030d

It will take a bit of time for cars to adapt to the new rules and for the majority to reroute. This can be confirmed by further traffic surveys. When this is done they can decide how to reapportion road space for cycling and pedestrians.I guess the biggest difference between now and a few weeks ago (before the scheme was in place) is that the schools are back and there are many more cars on the road doing drop-off/pick-up.I don't doubt there are negative aspects of it this early on. The question will be whether these persist (and there would be an argument for removing/modifying it) or whether it will end up having the desired long term effect and through traffic will be all but eliminated, overall traffic volume will reduce and average speeds will reduce. (It's not a requirement for all three of those to happen for it to have some measure of success.)Expecting it to magically work within days of putting up a bunch of signs and blocking off a couple of roads is just crazy.

John Kettlekey ● 2030d

Matt those are just aims.I have an aim to lose 10KG it doesn't make it reality!Let's take one specific aim:    - an enjoyable cycle and walking routeHow much road space has been reallocated to cycling or pedestrians on the DHR estate?Answer: 0%! Zero! Nought!Reality:  More motor vehicles (often larger and travelling faster) on the smaller roads. Negative impact! Reality:  The scheme increases motor vehicles reversing (including large vehicles) on several smaller roads. Negative impact!Reality:  DHR / Parkstead junction - now very dangerous. Negative impact!Reality:  The scheme does not appear to meet any of Government requirements concerning cycling.DHERA - I have not seen any comment apart from repeating general LTN comments - i.e not applicable to this scheme!The onus should be on DHERA / WBC to show how this scheme meets the aims. It hasn't! The aims and this scheme are completely divorced!

Ed Robinson ● 2030d

Ed, i'm not an LTN expert so no idea i'm afraid. I did used to live on the DH estate though and so still receive their newsletters. Latest one below which says '15 year campaign'Low Traffic Neighbourhood Scheme Everyone should have received a flyer from Wandsworth Council through their letterboxes regarding a new traffic calming measure in the Dover House Estate. The intention is to stop the rat running which pre-Covid had reached unacceptable levels. It is the result of a 15+ year campaign by DHERA to have something done about our traffic problems, including a petition to the Council with over 800 signatures from residents.We recognise that some people may have to drive for slightly longer than they are used to, to reach their destinations, but there are so many positives to the scheme that we hope that you will want to support it:    - reduced air pollution (Dover House Road had reached a level where the pollution was actually harmful for residents’ health)    - a much safer environment for children, cats, and our hedgehogs    - an enjoyable cycle and walking route    - less noise from cars and no more rush hour hooting sessions    - less pressure on parking as commuters won’t find it so easy to dump their cars here    - increased property values/desirability  This is a trial scheme and the Council are encouraging residents to give their feedback; from 31 August you can do this by visiting www.wandsworth.gov.uk/consultations.DHERA strongly support the scheme (although we recognise that it will not please everybody) as it removes a major blight to our lives.

Matt Palmer ● 2030d

Matt - please tell me how this scheme meets the LTN requirements?https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cycle-infrastructure-design-ltn-120

Ed Robinson ● 2030d

Hello Matt,I am not too sure DHERA has campaigned for 15 years though it may feel like it to them.  Also, the campaigned for closure at both ends during rush hours only.  The LTN is a rather new concept? This document of the Finance and Corporate Resources  Overview and Scrutiny Committee meeting of 24 January 2020 may be of interest, but its Appendix is a must read.https://democracy.wandsworth.gov.uk/documents/s71801/Paper%2020%2027%20AP%20cover-SSA205426.pdf https://democracy.wandsworth.gov.uk/documents/s71802/Paper%2020%2027%20Appendix%20One.pdf

Ivonne Holliday ● 2030d

If that's the case why have DHERA campaigned for 15 years for it to become a LTN?

Matt Palmer ● 2030d

The Dover House Estate was already a safe and pleasant place for pedestrians and cyclists with 4 quiet roads running parallel to the main road. Now speeding traffic, including commercial vans, are hurtling down narrow residential roads. It's a blatant misuse of taxpayers' money.

Jane O'Callaghan ● 2030d

It would be good if more of an effort was made now to enforce the 20mph limit.  Speeding mopeds are a problem all over.  E-scooters were supposed to be only legal if on hire with a limited speed and used by riders who had the minimum of a provisional driving licence.  I find they are still weaving in and out of people on the pavement.  Perhaps we should also have a speed limit on the pavement and shared pavement and cycle lanes marked so that they are very obvious if you happen to step onto one.

Philippa Bond ● 2031d

Sorry, not DHR, Putney Park Lane!!

Matt Palmer ● 2031d

Are you sure they are not residents on DHR?

Ivonne Holliday ● 2031d

I've seen 3 moped riders going down DHR since the start. Not ideal.

Matt Palmer ● 2031d

Depressingly sad but very true!

Ivonne Holliday ● 2032d

As a cyclist the measures seem to have a negative impact so far.More vehicles including large ones on the narrower roads that have now become"rat runs" to avoid the DHR No Entry. Plus some confused drivers on DHR performing late and sometimes erratic manoeuvres to avoid the "No Entry" sign.The mini roundabout just before the "No Entry" has been left in place which seems to add to the confusion. It won't belong before there is an accident!This scheme has not given any additional roadspace to cyclists I should add.I had a couple of potential incidents today but the cause was speeding not traffic volume.Speeding is still an issue which the scheme does not address.

Ed Robinson ● 2032d

Well he would say that wouldn't he! 

Philippa Bond ● 2032d

It's a deflecting fluff piece with no real content. "Don't blame me" says the man at the top ultimately responsible for it all.By saying "some councils got it right, some didn't" both sides will assume their local scheme is right/wrong depending on which side of the argument they are on.The answer will come out in the long term. The ETOs go in, some will get removed or changed, some will be kept or extended. Once traffic has adapted to them they'll do more traffic surveys and see what goes on in the next phase.Assuming it all gets magically fixed in one quick set of weekend works with a few signs is a bit naive.

John Kettlekey ● 2033d

Ivonne, I haven't read it but I do agree which is very worrying.WBC have missed an excellent opportunity to improve the DHR estate. Instead it is a lose-lose solution and no additional road space given to cyclists or predestrians.Having read it now I can't say I disagree apart from no mention is made about how green the manufacture and disposal of green cars. But it is clear the government doesn't like to take responsibility so the councils this time will be the fall guy!

Ed Robinson ● 2033d