Forum Topic

A Scottish view of where we are

This does not make comfortable reading and no doubt some would disagree. It is also true that the Scottish Government has hardly outperformed in recent months but sentiment is noticeably shifting in favour of independence and this shows why. https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/uks-lack-integrity-pushing-scotland-towards-independence-joyce-mcmillan-2895725I hope it’s not too late but it needs more than a change of political tone to turn the tide. The bottom line is - do enough English people care?

Jonathan Callaway ● 2327d21 Comments

Maybe the balance is are there enough Scottish folk who don't want to break the union! Let's see what the future brings. I wonder sometimes if the present government might not be happier with England as a sole entity.

Katrina Black ● 2327d

The Scots Govt didnt let scots living in England vote last time for fear of losing the vote (as they did in the end) I expect they'll do the same again this time and maybe get the result they want.

Andy Pike ● 2327d

I find your argument confusing or maybe it's just the heat! I'm reminded of the fact that many Brits living in Europe didn't get the opportunity to vote in the referendum. Same thing surely?

Katrina Black ● 2327d

The Scottish referendum was done under local government franchise rules - so all residents of Scotland could vote, including EU citizens.  Expatriate Scots were not able to vote unless they had a home base that was their primary residence. The EU referendum did include some but by no means all British expats depending on whether they were registered to vote here. Many lost that right by virtue of becoming permanently resident overseas. I lived overseas for 12 years but always kept a vote and nominated a friend as a proxy. A lot of expats were furious at being denied the right to vote. And quite rightly given the effect Brexit is having on their lives.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2327d

Katrina it's not an argument it's a statement I personally dont give a fig what the Scots do either way. If they want independence and win ths vote good luck to them, they'll probably need it. If not then nothing changes so that's ok too. It's their vote their decision.

Andy Pike ● 2327d

It’s interesting that this thread has generated so little response. Andy probably speaks for many English people who have become indifferent to whether the UK survives in its current form or whether Scotland separates and takes nearly half the UK’s land mass with it. What I also find interesting is how support for independence in Scotland is almost a mirror image of support in England for Brexit, otherwise known to Brexiteers as English independence. In Scotland the enthusiasm is strongest in the young and falls across the age spectrum, whereas here support for Brexit was strongest in the older age groups (with the possible exception of Putney). In any event Scotland looks closer to independence now that perhaps ever before, despite the economic challenges it would bring and the possibility of a hard border with England if Scotland rejoins the EU and England pursued a hard Brexit and the imposition of trade barriers. The latest opinion piece from Scotland is a reminder that some are still swayed by the economic and jobs arguments but they appear now to be a large minority: https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18547856.opinion-mark-smith-support-independence-three-groups-voters-still-resistant-yes/With a Scottish wife and a small flat in Edinburgh I can’t remain neutral on this even if most others do not care much either way.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2325d

Jonathan I do hope Scotland remains part of Britain but I can understand why many Scots  want independence. Westminster is so far removed  both physically and politically from Scotland but it would be a shame for the UK to break up. I see this partly as a result of Brexit and nationalism. I doubt many English people do care too much about Scotland or Wales for that matter. No doubt some will disagree with me.

Lucille Grant ● 2325d

Thank you for posting this, Jonathan, it's an interesting article that makes very similar points to articles that have been posted in Irish media by writers like Fintan O'TooleThe closing sentences of this piece are especially relevant:"It has long been said, by wise observers, that it’s not so much that the case for Scottish independence is being won in Edinburgh, as that the case for the Union is being lost in London.  And anyone observing the Westminster Government in its current state – presiding over an economic and health disaster at home, increasingly mocked and pitied abroad, and still pursuing a ruinous hard Brexit amid the economic catastrophe of the Covid epidemic – would be hard put to disagree."The prevailing attitude amongst too many Brexiteers that even if there's a hit from our leaving without a deal, we'll cope with it because we're British. After all, we stood alone (we didn't), we won at Dunkirk (a massive defeat) and, thanks to the spirit of the Blitz (read any social history of the war and discover the falsity of that) we triumphed in the war (but only with help from the Americans and the Russians).

Richard Carter ● 2324d

And I meant to add, can anyone explain what "Global Britain" is, other than a totally vacuous slogan?

Richard Carter ● 2324d

I think along the same lines as Andy over this issue, not really fussed either way.  I wouldn't like to see the break-up of the Union but it may happen. However as a Brexiteer who desperately wanted independence from the EU I can empathise with the Scots who yearn for their own independence. I don't think it would be that advantageous for them but who knows?  I don't have any Sottish friends to ask about this issue but I do have a cousin who relocated with his parents to Scotland when he was quite young.  Regardless of being born in England he regards himself as Scottish but he does not want independence and neither do most of his friends, they are all  in the 60-70 age bracket. I listen to LBC a lot and whenever this subject is discussed the callers are pretty split over it, the younger ones want independence and the older generation do not.

Sue Hammond ● 2324d

Please remember that when it is said  that the Scots want independence it is not as clear a statement as it sounds. The people living in Scotland are not all Scots and therefore have different views on the strength of the Union. Free personal care for the elderly and no tuition fees etc helped many from South of the Border decide to move North.

Katrina Black ● 2324d

I’d rather the Union stayed in tact, but feel this is ultimately a decision for Scotland.

Craig Fordham ● 2324d

I agree with you Craig.  It would be very sad if Scotland decides to leave the UK but, as you say, it is their decision.  Unfortunately, I do not think Westminster's attitude is helping much in this regard.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2324d

What is Westminster's attitude?

Sue Hammond ● 2324d

As seen from Edinburgh (and not only there, I might add), Westminster displays a combination of arrogance, intransigence and indifference.  The Scots feel sidelined by the lack of consultation on the response to Covid and simply ignored on Brexit.Sooner or later there will have to be a second referendum and on current opinion poll trends they will vote to leave.  It will be a very sad day in my view - I think both countries will be diminished by the collapse of the Union - but it's not completely inevitable.  At the very least a change of tone in Westminster is needed.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2324d

I seem to remember the Scots being hugely critical of the Gov. with regard to the consequences, costs and complexity of brexit, let's hope they will hold themselves to the same standards when they explain the consequences, costs and complexity of leaving the Union to the Scottish people.

Adam Tripp ● 2324d

I too would be sad to see Scotland leaving the Union. Of course once they are independent they will be free to ask for EU Membership.

Caroline Whitehead ● 2324d

Adam, that is at the heart of the argument. They tied themselves in knots over the economic benefits of independence back in 2014 and never had an answer to the currency issue. The economic arguments are even weaker now and they haven’t got an answer to the currency question either. But like the Brexit vote a lot of this is sentiment driven and they’ll no doubt worry about the consequences after the event.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2324d

The SNP aided the current Brexit in my view.The more unpopular the Westminster government is in Scotland the easier the ride for the SNP.I should say that people who support independence aren't all SNP voters and vice versa.It's very difficult to have a view on it, how much is the desire for genuine self determination and how much is just a distraction from SNP accountability?

Ed Robinson ● 2324d

@Jonathan 19.03Sounds like a whole bunch of sour grapes to me because Scotland can't get its own way to hold another referendum no matter how many times Sturgeon makes demands. However, I do agree that eventually there will be another, but I think remaining in the Union will win again. How is Scotland being sidelined over Covid?  Sturgeon seems quite happy running things her way and not following what Boris dictates from Westminster, which is fair enough.

Sue Hammond ● 2324d

It’s perceptions that count. She has been more cautious than the PM and will make every ounce of political capital she can out of every decision that emphasises the difference.  There has been consultation of course but you don’t hear much about it up there. Despite plenty of evidence of poor decision making in recent years the SNP are widely seen as the only competent party in Scotland. So a lot of unionists vote for them because the opposition parties of all stripes look weak, split and indecisive. Ruth Davidson went a long way towards changing that but as a strong Remainer had no chance of support from her pro Brexit colleagues down here. Since she stepped down the Tories have faded in Scotland though they did get the Brexit vote up there last time and were able to keep some of her gains.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2324d