Forum Topic

Lockdown relaxing - genuine question

Personally I think its far too early to ease the lockdown, average daily new cases in the UK are over 1000 whereas Spain, Italy and France are in the low hundreds. In Spain (and probably the others) its mandatory to use handwash and wear a mask before entering a shop, not here at all.Based on the above we aren't going to particularly change our way of life. Apart from two trips to the chippy (wearing masks) we havent set foot inside anywhere at all for over three months.  We get a takeaway delivered once a week but we remove it from the packaging, wash hands and then nuke it in the micowave before eating.Am certainly not going anywhere near public transport!Over the top? What are other people doing?

Matt Palmer ● 2176d74 Comments

Do we have any documented cases of transmission on beaches?Outdoors, sunlight, probably a breeze.I can't recall any documented outdoor case. I shall have to google later to be sure.Some outdoor events have caused spikes but this could have been down to transport, pubs etc.

Ed Robinson ● 2175d

Whether  there is an uplift of Covid  cases since  people have congregated on the beaches and parks or not it seems that he great English public are leaving their rubbish behind 'officials in Bournemouth slammed 'vile idiots' who left 20 tonnes of litter strewn across the resort's beaches, and others claimed the furlough scheme should be stopped because too many people are heading to the coast.'

Lucille Grant ● 2175d

Michael Ixer ● 2175d

There's some interesting comparisons here. Possibly too early to tell if there's a second wave in Europe? Or just a statistical blip? The US situation looks serious. I hope Johnson doesn't go with the "British Trump" nonsense. I suspect at present the US is heading for 200,000+ l? Not good for the international economy. Particularly is US to Europe travel blocked. As the WHO said: test, test, test - but it has to be done efficiently and methodically as part of an overall plan within controlled boundaries ..https://www.dropbox.com/s/odr7f9bm29wdej4/Covid%20stats%20timeline%20N%20America%20and%20Europe?dl=0https://www.dropbox.com/s/b9kwuo61hlpseu8/Covid%20stats%20USA%20and%20EU%2024%20June?dl=0

Michael Ixer ● 2175d

From the WHO today“Last week, Europe saw an increase in weekly cases for the first time in months,” he said, adding that more than two dozen countries in Europe had recorded resurgences of the deadly virus.Thirty countries have seen increases in new cumulative cases over the past two weeks. In 11 of these countries, accelerated transmission has led to very significant resurgence that if left unchecked will push health systems to the brink once again in Europe."

Matt Palmer ● 2175d

Personally I wouldn’t want to join that number of people on a beach, but you can’t blame people for starting to ignore warnings when the second spike that has been widely (and in many cases hysterically) predicted many times in recent weeks after various public gatherings,  has simply failed to materialise.  Indeed I’m not aware of any second significant second spike anywhere in the world - those countries that are seeing increases, such as the USA, are seeing them in different places that were previously relatively unaffected.  It doesn’t mean it won’t happen, but there is an element of the media crying wolf at every opportunity.

Craig Fordham ● 2175d

Weren't beaches and parks opened so that families without gardens had places to exercise outdoors?

Michael Ixer ● 2175d

@Matt. That's interesting; my view is that he's a writer - mainly a journalist and historian - who's never done anything in an organisational sense like run a profitable businesses? So I'd view him a a figurehead who can spew out the suitable rhetoric for his followers while those in the background are the real "doers". Cummings is probably the real "can doer"?@Sue. I don't have time to dig out references but I think there are polls that show support for Johnson began waning around the time of the Cummings affairs so I think it's still has an effect on people's trust. If Johnson is keen to engage and build bridges he needs to engender trust in his government, protecting the people spent demonstrate that. Yes, a number of people have never been on board with the lockdown rules: there are dubious characters on both sides; I see Piers Corbyn is being prosecuted for breaking the law ...

Michael Ixer ● 2175d

Good point Matt. As cafes, bars etc are still closed there is no advantage to the economy other than petrol bought for car journeys and sandwiches from M & S for a picnic on the beach.

Lucille Grant ● 2175d

Does it matter?

Andy Pike ● 2175d

@MichaelThe Cummings argument has been used as a cop out.  Ignoring the rules has been a way of life for many since the start of lockdown and now it's a lost cause.  Any large gathering, whether in Bournemouth or Brixton should be policed in exactly the same way. If the crowd becomes violent the police should crack down hard and the anarchists must be prosecuted.

Sue Hammond ● 2175d

I'm not the PM and have no desire to be in that role. I believe he was elected because he's the sort of 'can do' man perfectly suited to this situation?I dont doubt for a minute that aspects of the economy should be opened up but for example, why are the beaches open?

Matt Palmer ● 2175d

One point to consider is that the need for a second, sudden lockdown will likely have a more catastrophic affect on business and the economy than a slower but well planned release from the current lockdown once the test, track, trace and isolate system is proven and tracking the majority of cases.Secondly, whether it's Brighton, Brixton, Southend of a march in Hyde Park I think this indicates a loss of trust in the government and a feeling amongst some that there are other things more import or relevant to them ... I'm not sating they're right or I agree with them doing this, just noting a REALITY that the government must address. Damaging police property and injuring police officers just doing tgeiur job isn't right but perhaps address why people aren't following the rules. Tell them why they should when Cummings got away with it might be a starting point? As I've said before, you can't have zero tolerance on the streets of Brixton without applying the same to the kids from Eton ... or in government.

Michael Ixer ● 2175d

Matt you wrote "...i see saving lives as more important than easing the lock down too soon.", but how soon is too soon? What would you do if you were PM and had to balance the needs of public health versus the needs of an economy that will be left in tatters if we take another 20% hit to GDP?

Adam Tripp ● 2175d

It gets worse.  More thickos at Brixton street party last night:Reveller smashes up police car and others fight in street at partyhttps://mol.im/a/8458273

Sue Hammond ● 2175d

Oh yes I forgot those Matt!  All those thickos possibly passing on the virus to elderly relatives.

Sue Hammond ● 2175d

not to mention all the 'second wave raves' as they are called.

Matt Palmer ● 2175d

And Brighton and Bournemouth ...  Very convenient ...

Sue Hammond ● 2175d

Looks likely. Although no pictures were posted on here of all those marching in our major cities over the last few weekends, I suppose we should expect the spike from that  this week! Good though cos we can blame it on Southend.

Andy Pike ● 2175d

Matt, I think we can confidently expect that the R will go up after this week's  hot weather has brought the crowds out.  Possible further lockdowns in worst affected areas.

Sue Hammond ● 2175d

Glad we finally agree, the goverment doesnt know if the R is above 1 or below.

Matt Palmer ● 2175d

One model within many from which decisions are taken.  Yes last week’s news.

Robert Wheeler ● 2175d

Ok so all those people on the beach are unemployed. One supposition must be right.but only ones that agree with your narrative. Nothing changes.

Andy Pike ● 2175d

Maybe some people are applying double standards, but it's a long way from that supposition to implying that the people on the beach at Southend and other places are operating to double standards. How would you know?A supposition without evidence is ... no more than a supposition.

Richard Carter ● 2175d

Precisely

Andy Pike ● 2175d

"raised at a briefing weeks ago"well thats odd because the document is dated from last Thurday."we cannot preclude the R being above 1"seems pretty black and white to me.

Matt Palmer ● 2175d

@MattYour link to the huffington post is sensationalised old news.  A model showed R in South West of 1 and North West of 1.01.  This was raised at a daily briefing weeks ago. Sir Patrick Valance explained that more than ten sources are used to assess R.  Some are models (of which this is just one). others are statistical analysis of actual data. Heads and arses, really?

Robert Wheeler ● 2175d

I could be wrong but I think Andy was alluding to double standards; i.e. some people are crying that it's too dangerous to go to work because social distancing would be too difficult, but are more than happy to mingle with 100's of others on a very crowded beach.

Sue Hammond ● 2175d

The photos of beaches across the country show those working from home, furloughed, frightened to go to work and scared to travel to work,plus others.Proving the point its about time people got back to work then these scenes wouldnt happen midweek. And yes I'll bet a number of them are cab bus and train staff.

Andy Pike ● 2175d

'Or cab drivers or bus drivers too scared to work without PPE?'So you seriously think that if they are too frightened to go to work without PPE they feel safe on a crowded Southend beach like this, Andy?I think the heat has addled your brain this morning!

Lucille Grant ● 2175d

Sorry but you seem to be working on 'alternative facts'.The leaked document that shows the government isnt sure the R is below 1 can be seen here.https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/uk-coronavirus-r-rate_uk_5ef1f629c5b645f5d4871f61Perhaps you need to take your collective heads out of your arses.

Matt Palmer ● 2175d

How many of them are parents 'frightened' to send their kids back to school? Or workers frightened to travel on public transport ? Or cab drivers or bus drivers too scared to work without PPE? Now Richard if you want to do a bit of childish name calling these are 'Dickheads' thankfully not representative of us all.

Andy Pike ● 2175d

Can't work out why anyone would go to Southend with it without a pandemic.

Andy Pike ● 2175d

Here's an example of "the great British common sense" - from the Daily Mail front page today. Whatever the need to get the economy going again, and I know there's a real dilemma there, this kind of reckless ignoring of the risks is staggering. 

Richard Carter ● 2175d

At PMQs, Jackass accused Keir Starmer of using misleading Cornonavirus statistics.Starmer replied: "The figures that the Prime Minister says are inadvertently misleading are from the slide at his press conference yesterday.”Collapse of stout party.

Richard Carter ● 2175d

Matt, just to be clear I definitely wasn’t saying that saving lives isn’t important; rather that we risk more lives by continuing a strict lockdown. I’ve just read that 840k people in the UK are now waiting for a diagnostic test - 468k of these have been waiting for six weeks or more.  The lockdown may end up killing more than the virus (although it will also have saved many lives.). It will be years before the final analysis can be fully doneRecessions aren’t just about people having less money to spend on frivolous things - death rates go up during and after recessions.  No-one is exactly clear why, but it’s likely due to lack of funding in health and social care systems and issues relating to mental health.  A strong economy seems to save lives ...and that’s just about quantity of life.  Quality is as, if not more, important too and for most people their quality of life has been severely diminished - whether that’s children who are missing out on education, young people missing out on seeing their friends, parents struggling to juggle work and childcare or the elderly who are isolated.  For many lockdown has been a nightmare of stress and anxietyDifficult, difficult choices (I’m glad I don’t have to make them), but for me the balance has firmly tipped. We need to start returning to a normal way of life

Craig Fordham ● 2175d

Yes, according to PHE, on 19 June the rate was 0.7 to 0.9.  I think you will find that the article I posted above seems to question this.  

Ivonne Holliday ● 2175d

Robert you've ruined their inuendo by posting fact. Never mind I'm sure ths Guardian will have another rumour to post tmoz.At least we can all buy some nice German meat from Westphalia produced to full EU quality standards.

Andy Pike ● 2175d

Unfortunately lockdown was too late and the lockdown time to get test, trace and isolate up and running was wasted.The economy has crashed and there is real concern it may be a long road to recovery, assuming we ever do get back.We are essentially back to "take it on the chin" with a wink  wink from the government that the guidelines are now just words on paper.This whole episode has shown up real deep issues within the UK on every level.On the plus side the people, on the whole have shown great consideration for society to keep to the rules for so long and for key workers to keep the country going.Reform is needed, not left or right, but just sensible stuff other countries seem to do that have been well out of the grasp of the UK.

Ed Robinson ● 2175d

According to Public Health England website the current R rate is under 1.  I agree with Craig that we should, where possible, try and move forward.  Every day there are more potential positives news of vaccines.

Robert Wheeler ● 2175d

Yes of course things need to get back to normal as soon as possible for hospital treatments etc.I was referring to Craigs point about getting the economy up and running again, fully agree it's an issue but i see saving lives as more important than easing the lock down too soon.Our daily 'infected' rate is still higher than it was when the lockdown was declared. I appreciate the numbers appear to be coming down but as someone else posted, the goverment isn't even sure that the 'r' is below 1.

Matt Palmer ● 2176d

Hello Matt, I am sorry, I did not include cancer patients in my previous response.   The whole thing is too frightening for words. We were told that hospitals were open for other emergency treatments....   I wholeheartedly hope that all cancer treatments have been restarted by now.  And I wish all of the patients all the best for a successful outcome.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2176d

I agree with you Craig.   I really do not have the answers to all of this, there again, I do not have the benefit of the scientific advise! But the workforce in the UK includes people from the ages of 16 to 66.  I include here normal people, from post men/women, small businesses, bankers, doctors and nursers to barristers, to ministers, the whole spectrum but certainly exclude people with healthy accounts in tax havens. The needs of all of them are very different and perhaps they have an enormous amount of things in common. Public transport? There are also as many people who are retired who are in full-time employment at the moment as well as young people who cannot get jobs. I find it difficult to balance the need to go to work and not use public transport, not making face masks compulsory when people go out and, above all, the absence of the track and trace system. Just a few thoughts.  Thank you.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2176d

I see that, Matt,  but the 90,000 cancer patients who have been diagnosed late or missed vital treatment that now might mean early death probably wouldn’t.  Ultimately, we’re probably all somewhere slightly different on the spectrum of carry on as normal vs lockdown until a vaccine is found.  There’s no perfect right or wrong answer

Craig Fordham ● 2176d

there may be 50 odd thousand people who would disagree with you, if they could.

Matt Palmer ● 2176d

I’m with Gabrielle.  I fully respect the views of those who think we’re being too gung-ho, but personally  I think the costs of continuing the lockdown now far outweigh the benefits.

Craig Fordham ● 2176d

On COVID-19 an the R rate, I just saw this article from Huffingtonpost: Revealed:  The Government is not certain the coronavirus "R" rate is below 1 in England https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/uk-coronavirus-r-rate_uk_5ef1f629c5b645f5d4871f61?fbclid=IwAR1yUPo9NXKXgYq42NUxR41LPRRxYncYa5zznd_J_Np6PHMoXm1EyqagHjA

Ivonne Holliday ● 2176d

Thanks for that, Matt. A friend has just sent me this:"Boris Johnson: "No other country has working Covid-19 track and trace app".Then asks Keir Starmer to name a country with a working contact tracing app.Starmer: “Germany has one, 12.2m downloads”"I (my friend, that is) did a little digging. Here is a list of the officially deployed ones:Australia: COVIDSafeAzerbaijan: e-TabibBahrain: BeAware BahrainBangladesh: Corona Tracer BDChina: Multiple appsColombia: CoronAppCzech Republic: eRouška (Singapore app based)France: StopCovidGermany: Corona-WarnApp (offered for free to the UK, Johnson declined)Ghana: GH Covid-19 Tracker AppHungary: VírusRadarIceland: Rakning C-19India: Aarogya SetuIsrael: HaMagenItaly: ImmuniJapan: Shingata Koronauirusu Sesshoku Kakunin ApuriJordan: AMANLatvia: ApturiMalaysia: MyTraceNew Zealand: NZ COVID TracerNorth Macedonia: StopKoronaNorway: SmittestoppSaudi Arabia: Corona Map Saudi ArabiaSingapore: TraceTogetherSpain: OpenCoronavirus (currently on trial on 1 Canary Isle 24 Jun 2020)Switzerland: SwissCovidSo, only 26 (26!) countries have working test and trace apps. Yet another of Jackass's lies exposed.

Richard Carter ● 2176d

shame we got off topic but if we're piling in....PMQ's todayStarmer: where's the app??Johnson: no country in the world has a working test and trace app.Starmer: Germany does, 12 million people have downloaded it already. So where's the app??Johnson: no country in the world has a working test and trace app.erm....

Matt Palmer ● 2176d

After the fiasco of last week's PMQs when Jackass was found out giving misleading  figures, he's been at it again.  This week he claimed that there are 100,000 fewer children in absolute poverty and 500,000 children falling below thresholds of low income and material deprivation. As the analysis in the Mirror shows, these claims are also false:https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-makes-misleading-pmqs-22244844

Richard Carter ● 2176d

Particularly if it's a red tie like Donald's? 😺

Michael Ixer ● 2176d

I'd agree if the members don't feel they're being represented properly they should make that clear. It does seem that those countries where works councils are enshrined in law seem to have better cooperation between unions and employers than those where an adversarial system has created divisions over time.

Michael Ixer ● 2176d

Sue, gosh, you really do believe what Boris and the Tories tell you don’t you. Could you tell me just one thing the PM has got wrong? Go on, give it a go.Nick

Nicholas Evans ● 2176d

If you have anything flashing red, you have a problem.

Sue Hammond ● 2176d

SH: My Prejudice Detector is flashing red (again). Trade unions exist to protect their workers. When so many  people in politics and in society generally, including reputable scientists,  are warning that the current opening up of lockdown is risky, surely the unions are only doing their duty by demanding that teachers and pupils should be accorded maximum safety and security. The mindset that insists trade unions can't be trusted is in fact anti-social.

Alexander MacLeod ● 2176d

Sorry, I meant the NEU.

Sue Hammond ● 2176d

@MichaelThe biggest obstacle to getting the schools fully operational again are the objections being made by the teaching unions, the militant GEU in particular.  Instead of putting forward practical suggestions of how to make re-opening work all I've heard are countless objections from them as to why it would not.  On the other hand I listen to teachers calling LBC who say they can't wait to get the kids back into school and start teaching properly again.  If they're really that keen perhaps they should tell their union.

Sue Hammond ● 2176d

Anyway, Donald provides some light relief and makes the "British Trump" seem quite clued up ...(Sorry, Matt, a bit off topic.)https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-whats-the-19-covid_n_5ef2e6c7c5b6c5bf7c57c49d

Michael Ixer ● 2176d

The Covid emergency seems to be highlighting a number of issues in society - whether that's child poverty, homelessness,  unsustai able businesses, etc. Ideally,one would fix the root cause of these but that's not viable in an emergency situation. However, one should accept the issue is there if one's going to attept to mitigate it short term. Schools probably should be a priority - ideally from the educational point of view but, let's be realistic, good food is important for learning too. Denmark seems to have been successful at reopening schools but I believe the government and teaching unions cooperated on the solution there - often talking to the people who have the knowledge of worming at the sharp end helps  ...Ignoring the need to improve, as Johnson did in PMQs, isn't going to get us anywhere.

Michael Ixer ● 2176d

Richard. I think the scientists struggle a bit with the distance rule. I believe they selected two metres as from the knowledge that time it was asafe option. The WHO went for one metre but I think that was very much a minimum distance. One or two metres are just empirical guidelines not definitive, calculated values. Time as well as space is also a dimension (listen to Einstein). My understanding is that walking briskly past someone with the virus in the street is less risky than chatting to them over a two hour dinner with a distance of two metres. However, there are other factors such as airflow (from air con or wind), the size and volume of droplets - its worse if they have to shout over music or are breathing heavily from running. Masks appear to help but aren't practicable in pubs and restaurants. The UK government, as in the US, is getting concerned about the economy which is driving the unlock - it will be interesting to see how the managed market economy of China does compared with the free market economies of the west.

Michael Ixer ● 2176d

Richard.  In far too many cases the only decent meal that many children get is their school dinner.  To keep kids out of school for months on end is harmful to their physical and mental health.  Many have been without any form of teaching for 6 months and some will never be able catch up.

Sue Hammond ● 2176d

On the last claim (that the biggest cause of child poverty is children not going to school),it's instructive to look at the work of the Child Poverty Action Group:"Poverty rarely has a single cause. A range of factors including rising living costs, low pay, lack of work, and inadequate social security benefits together mean some people do not have enough resources." No mention of not going to school. https://cpag.org.uk/child-poverty/causes-poverty

Richard Carter ● 2176d

I agree with you Matt - we don't intend to change much of our way of living either. Despite the  obvious concerns about the economy our health (and those of everyone around us) is paramount.The only journey I'm making is driving to Canterbury to collect my daughter who ended up in lockdown there and who doesn't want to use  public transport. Having been out along Upper Richmond Road and walked down to the Embankment Jean was  amazed to see that it is mainly older people who are wearing masks and very few younger people. Am guessing that as they  think the risk is low for them they aren't particularly worried about other members of the community, including  the NHS staff who have to care for Covid sufferers.

Lucille Grant ● 2176d

Jackass said at PMQs today not only that the track and trace system was up and running, but that the UK has a fantastic test and trace system that will be essential to the UK’s success. Also, he not only refuses to accept the sharp criticism from the Children's Commissioner for England, but makes the astonishing claim that the biggest cause of child poverty is children not going to school!

Richard Carter ● 2176d

I agree with you Matt and with Michael.  The subject of the track and trace is woeful to put it mildly.  Extraordinarily enough, BoJo defended it today at PMQs as "being up an running". (???) I also think that the lockdown is being removed too quickly.  I shall continue to isolate/shield for the weeks, if not months ahead until I feel it is safe to go out.  Perhaps on these hot sunny days we can venture out more a the virus purportedly does not survive for long in the heat.   I was listening to the scientific advisers yesterday who said that it is a risk to ease the lockdown and perhaps it will be considered a mistake with hindsight....   But I also agree with the comments made on the state of the economy.  Some businesses are on their knees at the moment.  Perhaps the decision was taken considering only young people who could return to work, but not use public transport...  It is a very difficult balance to strike.  Come autumn, I hope we will not have to worry about this virus in the same way as in March.... On a very flippant note, I wonder if Cummings is going to decide that all those toppled statues should be replaced by BoJo ones....  On similar terms as the suggestion made by Trump Jr that the statues be replaced by those of his father's........... 

Ivonne Holliday ● 2176d

I think the key is in Nick Evans' point about the scientific advice:"“One metre plus”? Translated that means, according to Chris Whitty and Patrick Valance, stay two metres and only go to one metre if you really have to, and then only if you have those mitigations in place: masks (why aren’t they mandatory? Yet another failure), hand sanitiser, hand washing, screens, body positioning etc etc)."Which is fine, if people are prepared to go with it. Unfortunately, I think too many already disregard the 2 metre advice and so 1 metre? For many, it will mean: forget the whole social-distancing thing altogether. It wouldn't be so risky if we had a test, trace and track in operation, but that looks likely to be unavailable until the end of the year at the earliest, with the hopelessly discredited Lady Harding of TalkTalk at the helm. The fatal flaw here is the reliance on outsourcing everything to the private sector rather than relying on trained public health staff.I am not optimistic because of the very real danger of a second wave in the next few months ...

Richard Carter ● 2176d

Nick, Matt. I agree a cautious approach is wise, given the poor handling of the situation by this government compared to, for example, New Zealand and South Korea. Many aspects of the Covid virus are still unknown - aside from the high level of fatalities in vulnerable groups it appears that those who suffer serious symptoms may suffer progressive, irreversible debilitating lung damage. Interestingly, there was another paper yesterday (not peer reviewed as far as I know) indicating that one's blood group may be a factor in one's susceptibility to Covid - unlocking is going to involve uncertainties that can't be quantified at present. The answer is not pessimism or optimism but realism. The government should be planning not to unlock and return to the old norm but setting a strategy to move into a new business environment. It's likely that many businesses will fail. In hospitality that's not unusual anyway as many are run on tight margins, in the course if time these will be reestablished or replaces in different guises based on demand. However, there are more substantial businesses that will fail - for example, airlines and aircraft manufacturers will likely contract and shed jobs and reform in slimmer, different versions in 12-18-24 months time. At the same time other technology industries - IT, pharmaceuticals, biochemistry, etc will likely continue to grow. Surely, government, financial services and industry should be looking at retraining and reinvestment in new areas? As a veggie I'm also interested in how many outbreaks occur in meat processing plants - the USA, Germany, Freance, Spain and now the UK - does this indicate an inherent problem in such facilities?

Michael Ixer ● 2176d

it's easy to criticise those in government but would another month make a lot of difference to the health of the nation? How long would you have lock-down continue? the economy is on its knees, come October we could be looking at another million unemployed, the country has to get back to work before bad becomes catastrophic, half-year results will be out late next month, I suspect they will be a sea of red, many companies are going to go under

Adam Tripp ● 2176d

I'll be carefully trying to get some normality back. Wont be rushing to the pub on the 4th. Will let things settle down then pick a nice quiet afternoon.I think it's a matter of proceed with care and must get the economy back in some sorf of shape to be able to afford all the things we depend on.But at the end of the day its each to his own with due care and respect to others.

Andy Pike ● 2176d

Matt.  I so so agree with you.  I'm not a particularly social person in the normal way, although I definitely don't isolate. and will really enjoy meeting family and friends again.I have enjoyed the seasons passing and really appreciated it.  Back in March was in winter cloths,now virtually nothing.  Different stages of plants growing and birds actually singing again. Also don't have to go out'dutifully' because it's good for me to get out.I'm lucky.  Do online shopping. Bit of a pain not being able to contact podiatry ( toe nail cutting ) but in the scheme of things I'm content.  I do not intend going out yet.  Am inclined to think having been so well insulated, makes me more open to infection, and why ruin months of 'staying safe' ?  On the other hand, if I were younger and fitter, I would be chomping at the bit. It really is subjective, isn't it?

Barbara Shillabeer ● 2176d

I think my position is close to Matt’s. With the track and trace system so far short of world-beating, it would be foolish not to take careful precautions. Or “mitigations” as that buffoon Johnson has named them. As both my wife and I are in our seventies and I have Type 1 diabetes I am very conscious of the risks involved. One third of those who died in hospital after being in an ICU were diabetic.Where distancing is carefully controlled and I can wear a mask and gloves I am prepared to venture out for supplies - not always essential, but nice to have (thanks M&S). But the real worry is the carelessness of strangers. Two meters on the pavement? Only when I make a show of moving to one side do some people bother. I think the back to front messaging from this lethal government will make things worse. “One metre plus”? Translated that means, according to Chris Whitty and Patrick Valance, stay two metres and only go to one metre if you really have to, and then only if you have those mitigations in place: masks (why aren’t they mandatory? Yet another failure), hand sanitiser, hand washing, screens, body positioning etc etc). Of course the government has proclaimed 1 metre plus and encouraged us all to come out of hibernation. I would urge caution for those most a risk, and for those who are younger that what might be an inconvenient illness for them, could be a killer for many. And that many of those over 60,000 virus victims who have died were not old. Nick

Nicholas Evans ● 2176d

See I sort of take offence to that attitude (sorry)You may not care if you get it but do you not care that you might then pass it onto someone who dies from it?

Matt Palmer ● 2176d

I think it depends on people's risk appetite. I've booked in eyebrows for 7th July, hair for 8th July and emailed my favourite restaurant to get in 4th July.I personally will be going as back to normal as I can because I would like to get on with my life.  If I get Covid-19 then I do - I have thought about getting an antibody test purely as I think i may have already have had it. My mother is 65 (only aged family member i'm in contact with) is happy to see me even with me moving around in London. I am also very concerned with the state of the economy: if we don't support businesses they will go under an we will have even higher unemployment.  We now have higher debt levels than the size of our economy. All I can see is this impacting my tax for the next 30+ years. Remember lockdown was brought in to not overwhelm the NHS. Question: if we don't find a vaccine are we just going to yo-yo between lockdown and 'new normal' for the rest of our lives or just learn to deal with it?

Gabrielle O'Mahoney ● 2176d

It's very difficult to judge, Matt. Some of the scientists seem apprehensive about it. My main concern is that the test and trace system isn't yet adequate to monitor and manage an increase in cases; if we had a true world class system like the South Korean one I'd feel more confident. To be honest, there's nothing to attract me out much at the moment. Theatres and concert halls will remain shut, Formula E at the ExCel centre isn't scheduled now until July 2021, all the IT and BAA conferences have gone on-line for the time being, and it sound as like pubs and restaurants will be an antiseptic experience when they do open on 4th July - and these days I've too little hair to worry about the barbers! I'll go out if there's a need; delivery provisions for neighbours or friends older than us, trips to vets or supermarkets, etc; life has to go on and one needs to be pragmatic? I guess in summary: go out if there's a need or for exercise and distanced meetings with friends, and then be careful, otherwise stay inside?

Michael Ixer ● 2176d