Forum Topic

Can't erase history - really?

Johnson on Twitter:-"We cannot now try to edit or censor our past. We cannot pretend to have a different history. The statues in our cities and towns were put up by previous generations.They had different perspectives, different understandings of right and wrong. But those statues teach us about our past, with all its faults. To tear them down would be to lie about our history, and impoverish the education of generations to come."Can anybody imagine the bonfires when Britain left colonies? Documents destroyed by fire or by sinking in the sea. Others taken to the UK, there to remain often hidden from scrutiny. History is erased and censored. It is shaped and sculpted. Like a statue, I guess. Yet Johnson pretends otherwise.

David Ainsworth ● 2126d49 Comments

"Looks like a huge chunk of the population"Yes it is, with males having considerable far less favourable outcomes across all these groups.Japan didn't have a lockdown but do wear masks generally and they had very few deaths.I wonder if there is a clinical trial for life style changes????A healthy diet and exercise is probably the most cost effective drug of them all.Freshly cooked healthy meals at school would be a start along with cooking lessons for everyone. It may cost too much not to do it!

Ed Robinson ● 2121d

I think the kind of jobs BAME people are doing has exposed them to more danger. Underlying health problems and poverty are also factors, but even well-qualified and reasonably well-paid BAME doctors are dying disproportionately, probably because they're more exposed to front line danger in their place of work, 'while the white consultants are safely on the golf course'. Of course, that's an extreme analysis, but something's going on that needs looking into, as it was in the part of the recent government report that wasn't published, to which many BAME workers gave evidence.

Peter Evans ● 2121d

Andy. Yes, underlying health conditions and age were the original vulnerabilities discused; now being obese is seen as another vulnerability. These are not necessarily independent variables in the equation. Obesity may be a function of poor diet caused by poverty, underlying conditions may be related to age and/or poor diet, etc. The number of serious cases in different social groups will be based on the disease's progression  having caught the virus together with one's liklehood of catching it in the first place: if one is a rich retiree living alone off a gold plated pension who can self isolate for a long time you're less likely to catch it than someone sharing a house with several people, several of who need to travel to work on crowded buses and tubes as otherwise they'll be evicted by their landlord ... Let's hope the reports are able to sort out all these variables ... Definitely a case for the scientists not the politicians?

Michael Ixer ● 2121d

What about us fat old people I thought we were susceptible too.Basically it's the poor, the fat, the old, the bame, those with underlying conditions.Looks like a huge chunk of the population .

Andy Pike ● 2122d

I guess we need to wait for the various reports on this to be completed. However, early indicators are that: (1) poverty is a factor - poorer diet, more cramped living conditions, the need to work and being employed in jobs where WFH isn't viable, etc increases vulnerability; (2) vitamin D deficiency, more likely for those with darker skin colouring (and hence absorbing less sunlight so indirectly genetic), increases susceptibility to the virus. At the moment our knowlege of the way the virus interacts with humans is too limited to draw any firm conclusions. (Julie Goodyear is correct, all the Michaels/Mikes makes the forum very confusing ...)

Michael Ixer ● 2122d

Michael really, the Covid has affected the poor more???  Please elaborate.Yes, it seems very sadly, that black people are more susceptiple to the virus, it must be a genetic like my lovely friend who has Sickle Cell.  Lets just after each other....please. 

Bunny Payne ● 2122d

Well we've had both recently - the Grenfell fire killed more people than the Fire of London and Covid-19 is well on its way to killing more people than the Great Plague of London.In both cases, the burden has fallen disproportionately on the poor and on ethnic minorities and in both cases the death toll appears to have been markedly increased by the poor state of public services, cash-strapped after 10 years of government by Johnson's party.Johnson can't of course claim sole responsibility, but be sure, if anything really good happens in the UK in next 5 years, he will claim sole responsibility for that, have no doubt.

Michael Winstanley ● 2122d

Jonathon, yes, white is for mourning and for funerals, red is for weddings. White is a sad colour.

Bunny Payne ● 2122d

So did they blame Johnson for the fire the plague or both? (In Putney naturally)

Andy Pike ● 2122d

A number of the areas worst affected by the plague were not in fact touched by the fire. The fact is the plague had run its course (possibly due to an early form of group-immunity, possibly a very cold winter or possibly (and I find this the least likely) the rats remained healthy and the flees preferred to stay with them)but whatever the reason the plague was all but over by the time of the fire.

Leslie McDonnell ● 2122d

The fire spread very slowly, allowing almost everyone plenty of time to escape. That's why the death toll was surprisingly low - 6 recorded.

Freddie Francis ● 2122d

Thanks Peter, I was looking at the Fire of London map that showed damage by day and I was thinking the rats would just move back. It wasn't the whole city that was burnt down. Then there were the docks etc.Father Christmas must exist otherwise the death toll would have been a lot higher.

Ed Robinson ● 2123d

According to the Museum of London, the idea that the Fire of London stopped the Plague is a popular myth 'often taught in schools'.  They'll be telling me there's no Father Christmas next!

Peter Evans ● 2123d

Anyone interested in old photos and film I recommend following BabelColour @StuartHumphryes on twitter. Some excellent restorations of photos and film.A couple of photos of White City too!https://twitter.com/StuartHumphryes/status/1270658326079180801?s=20

Ed Robinson ● 2124d

History can be complex, or is it the analysis and interpretation of it? A US friend did explain to me that over the years the "liberal" tag (whatever that means in the US) had swapped from Republicans to Democrats over the years - ok, it is more complex than that. I can't vouch for all the facts in this article (it is marked "opinion") but another view ...https://www.houstonchronicle.com/opinion/article/How-Democrats-and-Republicans-switched-beliefs-9226115.php

Michael Ixer ● 2124d

on the black and white issue. I grew up in Shepherds Bush close to the White City Estate. All the road names are commonwealth places ( Canberra Road, Bloemfontein Road, South Africa Road, Adelaide Grove etc etc). I therefore always assumed that the Estate and the Stadium that is no more were named as some tribute or other to Commonwealth, white supremacy etc. Seems others did and still do BUT the area was actually named the White City in 1908 when the Anglo/Franco exhibition was held there and all the buildings were painted white (for whatever reason). I trust Hammersmith Council will research their history before renaming the estate.

Andy Pike ● 2124d

'The idea is that there was a silver lining to the tragedy of the fire, as it ended the great plague that swept the city from 1665-66. This was the last major outbreak of the bubonic plague in London, and killed 100,000 Londoners- about 20% of the city's population.'Let's hope history doesn't repeat itself.

Lucille Grant ● 2125d

I probably still have my O and A level omputer studies book that missed out the great work done by the British at Blechley Park.It erased, omitted, censored, with no references to Alan Turin or Tommy Flowers.If the great things can be kept secret for so long what else has been edited out?

Ed Robinson ● 2125d

David the monument has been amended in the past:The words blaming Catholics were chiselled out with Catholic Emancipation in 1830.[5]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monument_to_the_Great_Fire_of_London

Ed Robinson ● 2125d

Hello Jane, I decided to look up the origin of the term "whiter than white".  It is believed it originates from Shakespeare's poem Venus and Adonis published in 1593 and had become defined as being honest and moral.  I found this on Google: https://idiomation.wordpress.com/2010/10/26/whiter-than-white/
Also, in the Evening Standard under ES/Views, Have your say, of 18 September 2018 entitled:  The Reader: ‘Whiter than white’ is a laundry metaphor, not race hate speech There is a response from James Davenport, Crime Editor, on this as well.  https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/letters/the-reader-whiter-than-white-is-a-laundry-metaphor-not-race-hate-speech-a3938976.html I know that language is dynamic and changes constantly.  Until 2018 it was considered that whiter than white continued to have the definition as being honest and moral.  

Ivonne Holliday ● 2125d

"there are many different views on the Great fire of London.The cause, number of dead etc are all widely disputed."I trust that it did happen in London, and was not actually a flood. Otherwise, the Monument will have to go.

David Ainsworth ● 2125d

Thanks, Ed, that’s really interesting. I  We need to be open to New interpretations and explanations of events. History isn’t fixed

Jane Carter ● 2125d

Hi Jane, there are many different view on the Great fire of London.The cause, number of dead etc are all widely disputed.At the time a quick and convenient response was needed to bring stability. We've keep to that story ever since.Here is one such article:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8772583.stm

Ed Robinson ● 2125d

I remember as a schoolboy reading 1066 and All That. They insisted British history came to a .  in 1918.  We’ll, it was published back in 1930 but my old style grammar school agreed and we also stopped at the end of WW1.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2125d

Things may well have changed but when (decades ago) I was at school we were told that events only became history after fifty years, which left me able to study the causes of the Great War but not the war itself. Is this still the case?

Leslie McDonnell ● 2125d

Sorry this should have been addressed to Ed

Jane Carter ● 2125d

Peter, how is teaching The Fire of London scapegoating and a cover up? This is a genuine question

Jane Carter ● 2125d

For the Chinese and some other Eastern cultures white is the colour of mourning. A fact I only discovered in Hong Kong when Mao Tse Tung died.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2125d

Primary schools KS1 learn the Great Fire of London.I'm not sure what the significance or value of it is, except it looks like an early attempt at a cover up and scapegoating - which they are not taught.Today sadly a more relevant Great Fire of London would be Glenfell Tower.

Ed Robinson ● 2125d

..yet white represents purity in the Hindu religion as well. Hmm!Some 'black' and 'white' expressions are clearly pejorative and have long historical origins. Other phrases have become associated with good and evil. Other descriptions just aren't applicable to 'non-white' complexions. All best avoided! "A dark day for British sport" would be good/bad enough!

Peter Evans ● 2125d

Well said, Lucille. I love cats but interestingly a black cat is associated with good luck.

Jane Carter ● 2125d

Thanks, Yvonne. It's significant isn't it, that we associate white with purity? So much of this type of biased language is unconscious so I agree with whoever on this forum said that we all need to reflect on our own racial bias

Jane Carter ● 2125d

Sue I believe Bristol Council had been under pressure for quite some time to remove the Colston statue because of his association with slavery in the city. I guess it  just needed the  spark of George Floyd's murder for some people to take matters into their own hands.

Lucille Grant ● 2125d

I agree with you David but when did its relevance change, and why?

Sue Hammond ● 2125d

The statue of Colston was only there to remind us of his benevolence, not of his profiting from slave-trading and killing. His horrors had been forgotten and ignored when the statue was created.

David Ainsworth ● 2125d

Back in the 1980s I made a TV series for BBC Schools for primary children that looked at racism, including our wider Empire history and 'where people came from and why'. It's certainly not impossible for schools to study this if the will is there. Here's a question to unpick: 'So why do we have English names but they have Indian names?'

Peter Evans ● 2125d

I dislike the term 'black dog': origin Winston Churchill, I believe, which he associated with depression. I love dogs including black ones. Winston's obviously didn't ease his dark moods.

Lucille Grant ● 2125d

Hi Peter.  The use of the word 'coloured' with reference to people was  commonly used when I was growing up in the 60's because it was considered to be polite, whereas using the word 'black' was considered to be offensive.  Now it's the other way round, how times and the nuances of language change. However, now I hear 'people of colour' used all the time by presenters and from callers on LBC.  Hard to keep up.

Sue Hammond ● 2125d

Jews certainly do not wish Auschwitz to be razed to the ground - this, and all the other camps, need to remain even while the town itself is becoming a 'Disney fest' or so I've heard.Holocaust deniers on the other hand ...

Lucille Grant ● 2125d

Michael, I'm a similar vintage to you and our history syllabus  took us up to the First World War - I don't recall learning what led up to it but the  killing of Archduke Ferdinand stuck in my mind for some reason. I've always thought since then how what appears to be something minor can in the end trigger something much larger. I obviously learnt about the Second World War from my parents but my daughters also learnt it at school.

Lucille Grant ● 2125d

'Coloured' turns of phrase are usually best avoided. 'A black day for British sport' and 'play the white man' are fairly obvious, but 'red in the face', 'purple with rage', 'a pink flush', 'yellow with jaundice' are far from universally applicable.

Peter Evans ● 2125d

Hello Jane, Thank you for your comment.  The "whiter than white" term, I always associate it with purity (for example, children dressed in white when being confirmed in the Catholic Church) and lots of light, nothing to do with skin colour.   The same with mourning, normally dressed in black or dark colours due to sadness, lack of light — not colour of skin. We live and learn!  Thank you.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2125d

Hi Jane.  I heard exactly the same sentiments from a caller to LBC a few days ago, what a coincidence you are posting about it now. To be honest I don't think any statues should be removed whoever or whatever they depict because they are part of our history, good and bad.  Put cheaper replicas into city museums together with plaques detailing their history.  Encourage debate abut them in schools, perhaps after a day trip to see and learn about them? Whilst slavery was abhorrent and cruel it is no worse (imo) than the persecution and murder of millions of Jews (and Poles, Roma, the disabled, homosexuals etc) in Nazi death camps. The Holocaust was one of the most horrific terms in history but we do not see Jewish people rioting and demanding that Auschwitz be razed to the ground.  It is very important that these extermination camps remain so that the horrors committed in them are never forgotten and never repeated.  The same logic, albeit to a much lesser extent, applies to the statues and monuments in this country.

Sue Hammond ● 2125d

Sounds like history hasn't improved since I did it in the 60s. Learnt a lot about the Romans (which I found interesting), don't recall any modern European history (so nothing on WW1 or WW2 - perhaps not considered history in 1960s?) and had to give up when I was about 14 because I focused on maths and sciences. Fortunately I could continue with geography which I really enjoyed. Perhaps history hasn't been valued enough but some of it (dates of kings and queens, etc) was jolly boring. Physics and chemistry experiments were so much more fun - particularly if they went wrong and one got a loud explosion! I don't recall anything about slavery or revolts in India, or the opium wars in China ... Sad if things haven't improved. 

Michael Ixer ● 2125d

I agree with much of what you and Lucille say. However it's not just a question of reviewing the curricula - in fact the National Curriculum does reference a fair amount of muti ethnic topics - it's also about the casual use of language which we all probably use. I have had many discussions with black students who dislike the traditional association of black with bad and white with good - black sheep, black marks, black day etc. Hence 'whiter than white' suggests link of white with perfection. Before anybody objects with the argument that 'can't we use black now?' This obviously does not apply to the literal use of black and white as in Black Hole, Black Sky Blackboard, Whiteboard.

Jane Carter ● 2125d

I agree Lucille.  The history (and geography) curriculum needs to be rethought ASAP.   I was always surprised at the lack of sequence in the history curriculum. When my son was at school (he is now 26), in primary school they started learning about the Romans, while other friends in separate schools started with the Greeks...  They all learned about the Normans, the Saxons of course.  Then they jumped to Henry VIII , World War II (in Europe but no Asia), then Elizabeth I, the Plantagenet....  A similar pattern followed in the secondary education until he was 14.  And I agree this is ridiculous!

Ivonne Holliday ● 2125d

Hello Bunny, You say that statues are an idea from the past.  But there have been recent unveiling of statues such as Millicent Fawcett (2018), the Emmeline and Christabel Panhurst memorial (2015), the Animals at War memorial (2004), Maggie Thatcher (one inside the Houses of Parliament (2007) and another in Grantham (2019)).  The statue in Grantham will (is?) housed in a museum and the collection also displays the Spitting Image puppet.  I think the problem with statues is that people, for some reason, believe that the person on the statue is whiter than white, which is certainly not true.  As the Grantham Council Leader said:  "No-one can dispute she [Maggie Thatcher] was a very divisive character....  but we are honouring her as a person and her links to this town, whatever you think of her politics."   I think this applies to all personalities and statues.  

Ivonne Holliday ● 2125d

Agree  Bunny. Meanwhile the  history curriculum needs to be rethought ASAP. I don't know if  it's still the same as when my daughters (now in their 30s) were in secondary education but they had to make a choice between taking either history or geography from age 14, which at the time I thought bloody ridiculous.

Lucille Grant ● 2125d

I agree.  We certainly don't need to destroy statues, or erase history.  But it's time statues were placed with other history, in a museum where our children and those of future generations can study them, draw them and learn properly about their history.Statues are an old fashioned, grandiose, vainglorious idea from the past.  We don't make them anymore, better a memorial to those lost as we have here, and they have in Washington for those dead in the Vietnamese war.  Grandiosity is old hat now and nobody is going to be impressed.  Give kids a decent education and teach them the real facts of history, warts and all.  Otherwise how can we become a country of respect and have true values, if we don't teach our children both, or all sides of the story?

Bunny Payne ● 2126d