Forum Topic

Let's forget about tearing down statues and discuss the real issues

There are, I think, no fewer than four threads about the business of the statues and whether or not it is right to pull them down. People are obviously free to discuss that to their heart's content, but I'm starting this thread so that we can discuss the issues behind them: the dubious, biased history of the country that we are constantly being fed. The problem is that the statues business is in danger of trivialising debate, enabling some to deflect the discussion by coarsening it into "Whatever next?' questions and whataboutery over the Romans, the Egyptians, etc; no one has yet brought up the Assyrians, but give it time.In this, there's a parallel with the debate about a new UK-US trade treaty, with chlorinated chicken instead of statue removal being treated as the important issue when it's actually a sideshow: it deflects consideration (deliberately, in many cases) away from the serious questions about what kind of deal we should have and how it should be managed. What's a bit of chlorinated chicken, after all? You don't have to eat it, goes the argument. But there are far more important considerations than that.So let's forget the statues, at least in this thread: and go to the real questions about how we should consider the history of the country and the British Empire: was it the force for good that the empire-lovers would have us believe, or was it a brutal exercise in the domination of other societies so that their economies could be pillaged for private greed? Did we unselfishly bring the railways to India to benefit the inhabitants, or was it simply to provide a means of carrying away the loot? Was there a genuine aim to bring Christian civilisation to the benighted natives, or was that a self-fostered delusion to justify the savagery and greed of the colonisers?  Does the apparent philanthropism of men like Edward Colston cancel out the disgrace of his being a major slave master? Indeed, how can people even begin to justify the slavery and racism that was imposed on the unfortunate colonies? And what is the effect on our school and college curricula and on wider questions on what Britain really represents?There are so many such questions, and they go to the heart of the debate on what kind of country we've been and are now - and they are being obscured by much confected outrage at the tearing down of the statues of people who actually don't deserve to be remembered in this way.

Richard Carter ● 2342d13 Comments

Since posting this, I've just noticed that Martin Kettleis making the same argument in the Guardian:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/11/obsessing-over-statues-obscures-the-real-problem-britains-delusion-about-its-pastGreat minds, etc..

Richard Carter ● 2342d

This is not just Britain Richard all the major seafaring nations of Europe had their empires and overseas territories.It's about time we stopped looking backwards and had a debate that moves the issue forwards. We cant change the past and we shouldn't blame todays country for the past actions. Acknowledge them yes, change the curriculum on British history at schools to include education but move the debate forward lots of good things have happened in the years since abolition that need to also be acknowledged. Move on and build for the future

Andy Pike ● 2342d

@AndySuccinctly put, and I 100% agree with you.

Sue Hammond ● 2342d

Andy, we may all be saying more or less the same thing here - inform how we shape our future by learning - or relearning - from the past.  There is a good article in today's Mirror by Tristram Hunt, now director of the V&A, on this.https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tristram-hunt-take-down-britains-22178205I certainly don't think we should be tearing down all these old statues but some need to be taken off the streets and put into museums where we can be told the full story of the individual involved.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2342d

Well said, Andy

Leslie McDonnell ● 2342d

I also think this is a problem with European imperialism and colonisation, not just a UK one. I think some of it was also driven by religion? Wasn't the Vatican responsible for dividing South America between  Spain and Portugal? Wasn't the fact that arrogant Europeans often considered the local inhabitants as heathen savages at the root of slavery and, in some cases, genocide of the those local people? I think one needs to understand the mistakes of the past - for example, plundering and stealing wealth from colonies, the artificial division of Africa across previous tribal territories, the arbitrary transfers of land or populations for European economic or imperialist reasons, the opium wars, the ignorant and arbitrary division between India and Pakistan, etc - to analyse the problems of the world today and seek solutions to move forward? One can't change the past but equally one can't forget it. 

Michael Ixer ● 2342d

I agree with much of what you said, Andy. And yet: of course other seafaring nations had empires, but that amounts to whataboutery: "What about the French, etc empires" doesn't take us any further in dealing with our own history. And deal with it we have to, because you can't build for the future in a vacuum: "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Those who do not remember their past are condemned to repeat their mistakes. Those who do not read history are doomed to repeat it."Just to accept the past is in danger of accepting British exceptionalism: at its worst, the bathetic "good old British common sense," (as opposed to, I don't know, Lithuanian common sense?) and the endless "Britain leads the world..." nonsense. So, by all means, look to the future, but we need to reconcile with the past or it is meaningless.

Richard Carter ● 2342d

I agree Michael.What's more if noone can explain the UK's foreign policy today - how are we going to teach it to our kids?By foreign policy I mean deeds and results not words by politicians.Education is key but this will be a very difficult task.

Ed Robinson ● 2342d

I agree with all of you.  In another post I said we cannot change history, the past is the past, we should not hide from it but learn from it, understand and analyze it, debate it, learn the lessons but live today and ensure a better (and more civilized?) future. Personally, I disagree with taking the statues down.  Putting them in a museum would be fine but is that not hiding them in a way?  The UK, and most European countries as well, have a very rich (if not at times controversial) history but that is what has made us, rightly or wrongly.   This issue will become a distraction, if it is not already one, to hide the problems of education (ironically), the economy, the aftermath of COVID-19, Brexit and the most likely dreaded no-deal as well as the UK-US deal that looks like being absolutely reprehensible. I would rather not go into religion. But there is another issue which has been forgotten.  Human trafficking today (is this not a form of slavery?).  It seems to have lost all relevance suddenly.  I would much rather look into this than eradicate the past. So, where do we go from here?  We all have a right to protest and have our voices heard.  We seem to be a passive and silent majority.  I can write to our MP, to the PM, etc.  Regrettably, this will not make them stop and think, let alone respond coherently — unlike the removal of statues, just because the former does not necessarily score political advantage.  Sadly.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2342d

This is going on a tangent, but this video seems rather appropriate for the times..... https://www.facebook.com/bbccomedy/videos/you-woke-tbtn/10155592951401778/

Ivonne Holliday ● 2342d

Learning about the history of colonialism and Empire and Victorian industrialisation and the appropriation of land and resources and the exploitation of people over many centuries, etc, might help people understand why things are the way they are now.  But how do we move forward and make things different? Might that actually be easier if we try to forget our glorious past for a moment? It could be that clinging on to that 'world-beating', 'great-British', 'white-man's-burden' past is what's making it difficult for us to fashion a sensible place in the world for our country and its people.

Peter Evans ● 2341d

Exactly, Peter, but I'd modify that slightly: don't let's forget the past but understand it better, and learn from it.A side issue, but if anyone can explain what the ridiculous mantra "Global Britain" actually means, I'd be grateful.

Richard Carter ● 2341d

I don't entirely agree with that. Yes, we need to look forward and accept we no longer have a glorious past. But looking at why that past isn't glorious is what helps with the future. We understand why others don't think our past was glorious why we need to provide overseas aid to those countries whose wealth we stole in the past, why countries have civil war etc. Only then can we move ahead without creating hurdles?

Michael Ixer ● 2341d