Forum Topic

ALL lives Matter

Cenotaph boarded up.  Many people of many cultures gave their lives for freedom and peace. Now this monument hidden.  Cannot under any circumstances be justified.  Was a beacon of hope and grateful thanks

Barbara Shillabeer ● 2128d49 Comments

It certainly would be but I doubt there are too many like him. Thankfully

Andy Pike ● 2117d

Great news for the Labour party if the Conservative party are full of dinosaurs like Winstanley!

Ash Jones ● 2117d

I doubt you are a member of the conservative party or any other party. Who would want to be in a party that you were a member of?

Andy Pike ● 2118d

Obviously all coppers aren't. But this racist thug used to be a copper. As are others, particularly in the USA from whence this story began.

Michael Winstanley ● 2118d

Classic whataboutery.

Michael Winstanley ● 2118d

I'm a member of the Conservative party. But not a racist.

Michael Winstanley ● 2118d

I agree.On a weekend where 3 people have lost their lives, below the belt stuff from Winstanley to say the least.How about addressing the murders Michael?

Ash Jones ● 2118d

Mr Winstanley,Your tiresome left wing rhetoric is getting very boring.Same old drivel over and over again over many months.

Mike Essam ● 2118d

What says it all ? One ex copper is a thug doesn't say all coppers are. Nor does one man in reading killing 3 innocent folk suggest everyone in reading is a murderer. Or the shooter of the 2yr old boy in North london doesn't mean every black man is roving the street with a gun shooting children. So no Mr winstanley it does not say it all. It says one thug was lucky that brave man saved his life.

Andy Pike ● 2118d

Great theme to close on - let's just stress though that this far right thug, rescued by the black demonstraters, turns out to be an ex-police officer! Says it all.

Michael Winstanley ● 2118d

I can't believe all this petty squabbling and point scoring on this forum.The facts are there for all to see, a man was murdered in cold blood, in full view, in broad daylight, surrounded by other police officers who did nothing to help him.Yes, the whole thing has been highjacked by God knows who, but the facts should stand, that would not have happened to a white man (at least not in full view, in broad daylight).  I think that's the thing we should ponder on.

Bunny Payne ● 2126d

Sorry - I just woke up.Can we close it with this please?https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/black-lives-matter-protest-carries-injured-far-right-safety-waterloo-london-a9564946.html

Ed Robinson ● 2126d

I started this  thread as a comment really..  It has now morphed into something decidedly unpleasant. Could this particular reply from me please be the last comment..We all have our points of view but it's got nasty.  Point scoring over statistics mean nothing.  So distressing.

Barbara Shillabeer ● 2126d

Agreed Michael. Cherry picking statistics just confuses issues and obfuscates the truth. Maxine's post was a good grounding in reality from someone with experience of what we're discussing from what I guess in most cases is an academic position?

Michael Ixer ● 2126d

Ivonne. I'll let Mr Essam explain why as he introduced the subject. I (and Richard) just intervened to correct  a statistical distortion. Just to answer Mr Essam's query: black against black crime is a problem but I can see that it might be caused by poverty or being discriminated against. To me that is different from a police officer - an agent of the state who one can reasonably expect to be disciplined, to set an example and to obey the law - who kills a person without provocation, and with other police officers standing around not intervening. 

Michael Ixer ● 2126d

I'm sure that's right - most homicides are committed by a family member.Stepping outside that, you should read Maxine Campbell's heartfelt statement in a parallel thread. A**eho**s like you, basicly closet, or non-closet, racists just refuse to accept the basic truth she has to impart - proof from her own experience. Stop hiding behind a forum and presenting selective statistics - get yourself a white gown with a hood and be true to your instincts.

Michael Winstanley ● 2126d

"If you are African American you are 94% more likely to be murdered by someone from your own ethnic background than by someone from another group."Thanks. Do you have the equivalent figure for whites killing whites in the USA?

David Ainsworth ● 2126d

I may be missing the point here.  Your are discussing homicide offences in the US, but it appears that you are also blaming this on the UK police. Why? I know that policing in the US is suspect at times, but why pin this on the UK police? I also know we are about to become "Global UK" under the US leadership, but I fail to understand why we consider the US statistics with such vigour.  Be horrified by all means, but in the UK those statistics do not ring true.  Have the UK police made mistakes?  Without a shadow of a doubt.  But as far as I am aware, the UK police thoroughly investigate these cases. In the US, they brush them under the carpet. So, could you please explain why the US statistics have become so important in the UK, or at least to you?  Be horrified by the statistics in the US, but why suddenly blame the UK police for whatever the US police do?

Ivonne Holliday ● 2126d

Thanks, Mike. Meanwhile, the other Mike, so vocal on this thread recently, has gone rather quiet on the Winston Churchill statue thread. What's up, Mike, not so proud now of the "fantastic scenes" you were so excited about earlier?

Richard Carter ● 2126d

That's correct Michael.Also, according to wiki, the 13.4% of the USA population which is African American accounted for 52.5% of all homicide offences from 1980 to 2008.If you are African American you are 94% more likely to be murdered by someone from your own ethnic background than by someone from another group.I guess you prefer not to talk about the black on black crime figures though.Interesting interview from Larry Elder:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqJnzBHURvs&t=53s

Mike Essam ● 2126d

Fair enough, Richard. I was just pointing out the error in Mr Essam's statistics of unarmed victims. If the stats were the other way round one wouldn't be able to shut Trump up! 

Michael Ixer ● 2126d

Preview MessagePlease review your post. If everything is OK, click Submit below. Otherwise,click the Back button on your browser to make corrections.Topic: Re:Reply Message:Actually, Michael, it's worse than that:"The rate of fatal police shootings in the United States shows large differences based on ethnicity. Among Black Americans, the rate of fatal police shootings between 2015 and June 2020 stood at 30 per million of the population, while for White Americans, the rate stood at 12 fatal police shootings per million of the population."In other words, the rate of fatal shooting for blacks is almost three times that for whites.https://www.statista.com/statistics/1123070/police-shootings-rate-ethnicity-us/

Richard Carter ● 2126d

So given 60% of the US population is while and 13.4 % is black that means you're twice as likely to be killed by the police if you're black? Or did I misunderstand something? (Using ethnic proportions in Wikipedia quoted from US census bureau.)

Michael Ixer ● 2126d

According to official statistics, in 2019 in the USA 9 unarmed black people were killed by Police officers, and 19 unarmed white people were killed by Police officers.But as we all know, the left don't deal in fact, they prefer fiction!

Mike Essam ● 2126d

It’s not in the least clear that this particular murder has had less attention than the many thousands of other gun crimes in the US.  I disagree that this anything to do with “wokeness” and I don’t see how the Mayor is somehow guilty of this too.  Yours is a very one-eyed view if I may say so.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2126d

It is clear Jonathan. White woke turn a blind eye to black on black murder.Much like our mayor Khan, only interested in stoking racism.Listen to a brilliant black ex cop from the USA, who only deals in facts, not fiction.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLqS6Wp0HzQ

Mike Essam ● 2126d

Care to explain?

Jonathan Callaway ● 2126d

Strange that no-one on this forum has commented on the murder of the brave black pensioner David Dorn (St Louis USA) who was murdered last week during the BLM looting and riots.As usual the likes of Richard, Ed and others from the woke community pick a subject that fits with their own narrative but choose to ignore the real news.

Mike Essam ● 2126d

"Statues and other monuments are often boarded up as a sensible precaution if there's going to be a major march or popular gathering."They could be celebrated in their own right as works of art.The London Cenotaph was originally made in wood and plaster in 1919.

David Ainsworth ● 2126d

Statues and other monuments are often boarded up as a sensible precaution if there's going to be a major march or popular gathering.

Peter Evans ● 2126d

"...that phrase has become associated with an ugly backlash from the far right."No it hasn't, even though Lefties like to portray it in that way.If you'd seen the football hooligans today in Parliament Square, you'd have realised how wrong your claim is. I counted at least three "ALL LIVES MATTER" placards, and that was in just one small part of the crowd.

Richard Carter ● 2126d

However, on reflection, BLM is linked to COVID if one looks at the death statistics so, it's perhaps not that straightforward. In the similar way that the economy links COVID and Brixit. Multi dimensional problems? Equality, the economy, trade, immigration, EU relationships ...

Michael Ixer ● 2127d

Spot on, Ben.

Michael Ixer ● 2127d

"I suspect, as US military leaders say, monuments like the Cenotaph have become collateral damage by agitators just using the BLM protests to demonstrate against the establishment?"A question to ask is:- Who really gains from graffiti being painted on the Cenotaph? Who is spurred into action by this act?

David Ainsworth ● 2127d

Absolutely Ben.

Lucille Grant ● 2127d

Agreed, Caroline. Black (and brown) people generally suffer more than white people where racism is concerned. So in this case their lives do matter more as they are more under threat.

Lucille Grant ● 2127d

Boris must be loving all this "debate" and media coverage to deflect his poor control of COVID-19 and the Brexit disaster...

Ben Rainbow ● 2127d

As I understand it the BLM movement arose in the US originally because of the disproportionate killing of black people by US police forces. It never suggested that other lives didn't matter, just that some elements of US justice weren't valuing black lives as much as others? Again, my understanding is that the white supremacists and far right organisations have created a reaction to that, and, at the same time, other groups have associated themselves with BLM to use the movement for their own purposes. I suspect, as US military leaders say, monuments like the Cenotagh have become collateral damage by agitators just using the BLM protests to demonstrate against the establishment? Not saying that's right, just a fact of life, and given the cancellation of the next BLM protest in London it seems those organising the BLM movement aren't happy about it. Happy to be corrected if someone has evidence to the contrary.

Michael Ixer ● 2127d

Apparently all statues are equal. Slave traders and black playwrights:-https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-53011774Actually, bleach is a lot nastier than water, so unequal treatment, but perhaps symbolic of the hatred shown by the perpetrator.

David Ainsworth ● 2127d

They're not Caroline.  Who says they are?

Sue Hammond ● 2127d

If you read my posts of 10:35 and 10:39 you'll see that I've already answered this claim.

Richard Carter ● 2127d

And they shouldn't be less important either!

Caroline Whitehead ● 2127d

"..that phrase has become associated with an ugly backlash from the far right."No it hasn't, even though Lefties like to portray it in that way.  It's a factual statement, ALL lives DO matter.  Black lives are not more important or more precious than any other lives?  Why should they be?

Sue Hammond ● 2127d

I certainly agree with that: I think the problem here was caused by the original heading, 'ALL Lives Matter,' because that phrase has become associated with an ugly backlash from the far right.

Richard Carter ● 2127d

Whatever the cause, should it be necessary to have to board up the Cenotaph, designed to remember the fallen of all colours and creeds throughout the Commonwealth? I think not.

Leslie McDonnell ● 2127d

Or this:"But the point of Black Lives Matter isn't to suggest that black lives should be or are more important than all other lives. Instead, it’s simply pointing out that black people's lives are relatively undervalued in the US — and more likely to be ended by police — and the country needs to recognize that inequity to bring an end to it."https://www.vox.com/2016/7/11/12136140/black-all-lives-matter

Richard Carter ● 2127d

"At its face, 'All Lives Matter' sounds like a we're-all-in-this-together statement. Some may be using the phrase to suggest that all races should join hands and stand together against racism, which is a sentiment that comes from a good place. But the problem is, the phrase actually takes the focus away from those who need it. Saying 'All Lives Matter' redirects the attention from Black lives, who are the ones in peril."https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/a32745051/what-black-lives-matter-means/

Richard Carter ● 2127d

The Cenotaph commemorates those not just from Britain but all parts of the Commonwealth who gave their lives in two world wars and since.Had they not those threatening to deface it would be met not by an unarmed police force operating with the support of the vast majority in this country but by something far more sinister and uncompromising.

Leslie McDonnell ● 2127d

Disgusting that this had to be done to protect it from a mob of out of control half-wits.

Sue Hammond ● 2127d