Forum Topic

removal of racist statues

Khan wants all 'racist'  statues torn down..  Why not schools, hospitals, houses for the poor etc to be included?

Barbara Shillabeer ● 2128d47 Comments

Simon. I think the important point you raise is that the curriculum should teach this accurately and honestly, then it might be obvious to all which statues were unacceptable and we wouldn't have three threads on it. (I'd say my own formal education on this was very limited and biased.) There is a secondary issue of who should select and dismantle objectionable memorials. The prime minister and home secretary seem to believe the Bristol action was unacceptable - and even opposition leader was not supportive. I'd personally say sometimes in a democracy direct action is  necessary when there has been inaction to an injustice - we accept it was necessary for the suffragettes, in Hong Kong, etc but seem uncomfortable with it closer to home. One just has to be careful it doesn't degenerate into anarchy?

Michael Ixer ● 2127d

Thanks Matt. My fault for calling you Michael. Am in agreement with the fact that something definitely needs to be done as so much genuine distress is obviously being felt.  Not sure vandalism is the answer though,just exacerbates the problem.There is actually a mechanism for the removal of statues but I've no doubt at all that black people would not be on the necessary committee or panel to make the decision.I suppose that is also true of many decisions concerning their lives

Barbara Shillabeer ● 2127d

I apologise for my emotive accusations but this is a point well made. Even if for a split second I made certain individuals question their view that is one step in the right direction. There are now three threads on here discussing statues. That is far too much discussion on what is largely a clear cut issue. Problematic statues should be removed. Whether they go to landfill or a museum is irrelevant. curricula in schools must change in order to improve society.

Simon Sharp ● 2127d

I couldn’t agree more. The Irish experience at the hands of the English (or British because lots of Scots participated too) should not be overlooked either. For us English a trip round parts of the National Museum in Dublin makes uncomfortable viewing.  But on my many trips over there I have been met with nothing but a welcome. Irish kids are taught a very different history of the British Isles to the one we get in our schools. I am sure things have moved on since my schooldays but I am quite sure teaching in English schools fails to convey the true horrors of Cromwell’s predations in Ireland, or the murderous doings of the Black and Tans.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2127d

Jane, can you not see that is the whole point??  Saville gave a fortune to good causes, but he was a disgusting paedophile, can you not see the similarities?

Bunny Payne ● 2127d

Surely attitudes to these disgusting paedophiles changed when we learned about their behaviour. Had we known at the time I doubt whether statues of them would have been commissioned. It's not as if paedophilia was accepted then but attitudes to it have changed. It was never accepted.

Jane Carter ● 2127d

Well said Lucille, we often don't realise what we're putting out there, I too have to question myself constantly.On the subject of statues, first of all I think they're outdated as they were for the glorification of a person after wars or Empire building, which is not at all appropriate in this day and age.I wouldn't mind if a statue was erected for a few months, before it was consigned to a museum.  So much better to have memorials like the Holocaust in NY, the wall in Washington, these things go with the modern mentality and are much more affective.  Can you imagine a statue to Lady Di??  It would be awful!!!!  Better to concentrate on raising the profile on HIV/AIDS and landmines, surely?

Bunny Payne ● 2127d

"put them in a museum for anyone interested in history to study them."Yes, this is the wider point: the statues are only symbols, what's important is to understand what lies behind the history. There's so much exceptionalism about the Empire ("We brought the railways to India and Christian civilisation to Africa," etc), and we really need to get beyond that to an understanding that all the European empires were all exploitative. Sure, some were worse: the Belgian treatment of the Congo and the German treatments of the Herrero and Nama in what's now Namibia were particularly awful. But we're hardly in a position to point the finger, the deliberately imposed famines in India, the vicious treatment in Kenya during the Mau Mau rebellion, repression in Cyprus are just three of the less than civilised acts of our own government.So the statues are in one sense a sideshow, what is really important is to have a proper reckoning with our past, and for that a serious attempt at reeducation is needed.

Richard Carter ● 2127d

Michael, well said :)

Bunny Payne ● 2127d

I don't think racists recognise that they are racist tbh. I'm not pointing the finger at anyone here but I am questioning myself as a result of what is happening.

Lucille Grant ● 2127d

Sue, if somebody called me racist I would laugh in their face (if I was allowed to get near them) because I know that would so far away from the truth to be ridiculous.

Bunny Payne ● 2127d

Alexander, my feeling completely.  I was in Hungary when a lot of these communist statues where pulled down.... it was quite a sight!  These statues are completely outdated and have no place in the modern world.... but them in a museum for anyone interested in history to study them.

Bunny Payne ● 2127d

The "Sun", at a guess.

David Ainsworth ● 2127d

Interesting report in the Rochdale Herald:The Government has confirmed that the people that pulled a statue down over the weekend will face a different level of justice to those that build flammable flats.  A spokesman said, “It’s important that we up hold the law by making sure those identified are captured, tried and receive prison sentences. Or, in the case of the Winston Churchill statue, the death penalty would still be too generous.”https://rochdaleherald.co.uk/2020/06/08/people-that-pull-statues-down-to-face-different-level-of-justice-to-people-that-build-flammable-flats/PS: Just to warn the more po-faced here, the report is in a satirical newspaper and may not be 100% accurate...

Richard Carter ● 2127d

Which is exactly what Khan has done - formed a diversity commission to review London landmarks and discuss what should be done. Where, Barbara, have you read that he wants to tear down all 'racist' statues?

Jane Carter ● 2127d

Sorry for not replying to this Barbara, i didnt read far down enough in the thread to see you asking me this question.I dont believe the statues should be destroyed, they should certainly be confined to museums though. I would prefer they were taken down with consent but I know that particular statue has been a source of controversy for years. There was at some point a plan to put a plaque on it detailing the (nowadays) crimes that were committed by that man but in the end it was vetoed by the Tory council.So to answer your question directly. I prefer them to be removed lawfully but as that couldnt be done with this particular statue i have no issue with it being taken down by force.That doesnt mean i support people going and doing this all over the place. It would seem far better for an independent commission (not with all white members) to examine all statues that may be a bit dubious now and to take a sensible view as to what should happen to them.

Matt Palmer ● 2127d

I was sorry to see the statue of Michael Jackson removed from Fulham FC. OK, we now know he was a disgusting paedophile who preyed on children. But let's be fair, he also brought pleasure to millions.Less familiar to Putneyites will be the statue of Jimmy Saville which was removed from outside Scotstoun Leisure Centre, where it used to enjoy a view of the childrens' swimming pool. Again, attitudes have now changed to Saville, but the statue was erected in respect of his good works - such as the monies he raised for various charities and the good advice he was able to provide on many occasions to Mrs Thatcher.

Michael Winstanley ● 2128d

Splendid idea Barbara.Construction not destruction.Build a museum to educate the people about the ills of the slave trade. Return a few looted treasures if we have to make some space.After all - we have all been paying for it.The treasury took out a loan to compensate the slave traders. The repayments finally stopped in 2015 I believe.

Ed Robinson ● 2128d

On the outskirts of Budapest there is an outdoors museum containing most of the statues of communists who ran the country until they were chucked out. There are dozens of them. Put together they look like a proper bunch of miscreants, and most definitely yesterday's men and women. The same treatment could be accorded statues and memorials of those Brits who facilitated slavery and fought against equal rights for BAME people. Maybe the Mayor could look into that approach.

Alexander MacLeod ● 2128d

RE quotes..  So sorry Michael..Was getting a bit carried away with all the comments on post..  No, it was Matt, but my reply of course ,is the same.

Barbara Shillabeer ● 2128d

Orwell might not be as dependable as you believe. He seems to have been a bit of a tattler, at the end of his life, anyway. This saddens me, but I still think that he is a great bloke.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orwell%27s_listBBC statue:-https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/Orwell_McBeath.jpg

David Ainsworth ● 2128d

Oh really? Would you be happy to be called a racist then Bunny?

Sue Hammond ● 2128d

No nor do we need tittle tattling and reporting, for God's sake.  George Orwell will be turning in his grave!!

Bunny Payne ● 2128d

At least these topics can now be discussed or at least disagreed on.It's always an issue when you put mortals on pedestials.Still at least no one is suggesting a Statue to Starlin who also played a big part in defeating Hitler!

Ed Robinson ● 2128d

@sue. Good. We don’t need that kind of nasty unfounded accusation here.

Freddie Francis ● 2128d

Ed. If you read my comments on Richard's thread I don't claim to have the answers. When I was at school in London,  late 50s, and Essex, in the 60s, Churchill was only ever regarded as a hero because of WWII (ok I did maths and sciences so thanks to the education system my history was limited then). Only in the 70s did my Irish friends make me aware of why they had a different view of him, and it was only relatively recently that I became aware why others from the former colonies hated him. Although,  you can't please everyone because I have a Zulu friend who one evening blamed us, the British, for giving South Africa its independence and leaving them to the mercy of the Boers. (Actually,  I did get his point but as I said elsewhere we all have different filters on history depending on our background and experiences.)Barbara, don't think it was me that mentioned the "quotes" 🙂

Michael Ixer ● 2128d

How about breweries? Just a link into Edward Colston Mortlake connection.Looks like he died at his home in Cromwell House, Mortlake.I think there are a couple of the original gate pillars left.Interesting how local history can be.

Ed Robinson ● 2128d

Cheers Freddie. xx I've reported the pr1ck anyway.

Sue Hammond ● 2128d

Of course the Bristol statue should have come down!!  There's been controversy about it for many years.  I was in Hungary in the 1990s when the Hungarians were pulling down all the statues pro-Communism, as happened all over the ex-Communist states.  The Communists built roads, flats, all sorts of things.What's wrong with pulling down statues that celebrate the slavery system.  Yes a lot of good was done with the money gained, but the system was wicked and corrupt, simple as ..

Bunny Payne ● 2128d

Calling people here racists? Is that your game? bit of a smart Alec aren't you? (that's a euphemism by the way).I certainly don't see any racists here and certainly not Sue Hammond as far as I can see from the two comments in this thread. Why don't you name a few more names and examples of that racism? I get it, you are jumping to a stretched conclusion that because some take a view that a bunch of rioters tearing down a statue (a statue which I do not defend before you insult me with the same label) is not the way to get things done. You're one of those people who take the view if you don't agree wholeheartedly with you they must be against you. You need to back off matey.

Freddie Francis ● 2128d

"Churchill is more difficult - without him perhaps there would be statues of Hitler in London but his track record in the British colonies is not good."It didn't take long to get into a pickle!Care to expand on the "not good"?Is it the extent of the good or the "not good" that determines if they stay?I think we should have a statue dedicated to the pulling down of taboo subjects around British history.

Ed Robinson ● 2128d

So you are calling me a racist?

Sue Hammond ● 2128d

Michael  The reason I put racist in quotes was because Khan had done so.  And no. .I most decidedly do not agree with bringing down statues.  Yes.  Definitely put them in museums to learn lessons from, but there is a lawful procedure to have statues removed if found offensive..  do you not agree with laws then?

Barbara Shillabeer ● 2128d

You and the original poster for starters.

Simon Sharp ● 2128d

Who are these"collection of racists" Simon?

Sue Hammond ● 2128d

Simon. Agreed, any statues of people like Colston, Rhodes, etc should be moved to museums where there can be a detailed explanation.  I see the debate as do you think the Bristol police were sensible to go with the mood of the protesters not to intervene (which I think was a sensible decision to avoid strife), or the Johnson and Patel view that the law should have been upheld - presumably at the cost of conflict with the protesters? Churchill is more difficult - without him perhaps there would be statues of Hitler in London but his track record in the British colonies is not good. 

Michael Ixer ● 2128d

These threads are becoming a convenient collection of racists. It's a shame there is no auto-mute for such individuals. There is literally no argument against removing racist statues from public. If there was a statue of Hitler in Westminster Square would you object to removal?

Simon Sharp ● 2128d

And Ms Patel isn't jumping onto the Tory Law & Order zero tolerance supporters by taking a hard line even with police leader trying to avoid unnecessary violence? Isn't that what all politicians do for their supporters? 

Michael Ixer ● 2128d

"Actually I can't recall many statues put up in recent times"There are three recent statues in Parliament Square that were put there since 2007: Millicent Fawcett, Gahdi and Mandela. Other recent statues around the country include Morecambe and Wise, Ken Dodd, Betjemin, Chaplin, Bela Bartok and countless footballers. Thankfully very few, if any, politicians.

Freddie Francis ● 2128d

@BarbaraKhan spotted a bandwagon and leapt on it.  Opportunistic vote catching exercise.

Sue Hammond ● 2128d

Apologies - the last post was mine

Richard Carter ● 2128d

Actually I can't recall many statues put up in recent times.Hasn't the trend moved more towards abstract sculpture in public places?

Richard Carter ● 2128d

Carry on with statues if we must, but make them of a material that will slowly dissolve away in typical London weather.

David Ainsworth ● 2128d

Or perhaps statues are not the way to commemorate people today. Any ideas?

Caroline Whitehead ● 2128d

I fear if we move all the statue celebrating racists and imperialists we may have a number of empty plinths. Still, perhaps that's the answer to any post Covid recession: production of new statues of those providing the solution to the Covid pandemic ... Tim Spectre, Neil Ferguson, Bill Gates, ... Or should we, instead, look at environmentalists?

Michael Ixer ● 2128d

Do you not agree with bringing those statues down then Barbara? I notice you put racist in quotes for some reason.

Matt Palmer ● 2128d

I don't see your argument here? Statues are built to glorify the individual. There is no "glory" in those 3 London individuals. They are part of our history and should be kept in a museum / archives and taught about in school but I struggle to see why these should exist as statues.

Gabrielle O'Mahoney ● 2128d