Forum Topic

working the land - its dickensian

I expressed some interest in this as I am newly self employed and not covered by furlough or the self-employed scheme.Its Dickensian:1. Minimum wage2. Slave like targets to meet3. Long hours4. Communal living in a caravan (hardly social distancing)No wonder nobody is prepared to do this unless you come from super poor village in eastern Europe. I grew up in the evil apartheid system and it doesn't look much better than that. Address the conditions and there will be no problem recruiting locals. And there is for the most part nothing wrong with the English. They are just not prepared to be slaves in a Dickensian system.

Imbuzi Yentaba ● 2240d68 Comments

It would be interesting to know how much mechanisation there is now and how much work is done in polytunnels.  The Pick Your Own I went to last year had polytunnels of waist level strawberries but the gooseberries I insisted on picking and the kids (age 3 and 5) weren't so keen on were outdoors in the ground extremely prickly and it was wet and windy.

Philippa Bond ● 2235d

About 20 odd years ago one of my teams once appointed a young and very well qualified building surveyor via interview at the office. No one could work out when he started why he didnt know zip about buildings, specifications etc. Took a few days and some enquiries via the audit team to ascertain he was an identical twin and we had interviewed the qualified twin but the other one turned up for work

Andy Pike ● 2235d

Ed. I agree video is limited in its ability  and personally I prefer voice conferences for remote meetings, particularly those with multiple locations and large groups - I find it less distracting. It depends a bit on the motivations to replace face to face meetings. On a more serious note.On a serious note, many of us get thrown into recruitment without and preparation for it and I remember a colleague suggesting that perhaps the old joke of throwing CVs down the stairs and just picking up the closest ones wasn't such a bad idea... On a recent Infosec industry webcast a panelist from a global service supplier suggested he recruited on the basis of ability to learn quickly and cultural fit. First point, fair enough, technology changes quickly, but like your "different" employee, "cultural fit" seems a minefield to me?x3 - the technology was getting frustrating last night, hitting submit just left a wirling circle, so I cancelled and resubmitted but obviously  it had posted the cancelled ones!

Michael Ixer ● 2235d

Michael x 3 - I did have a laugh imagining how you would verify "healthy and capable of doing the job" on a video call.I've seen all the various interviewing scams which can be amusing.But on the whole I find video a distraction. One manager did however comment that someone I recruited, but had never seen, looked 'different'. But he meant I assumed - unconventional. I just replied 'Are we not a diverse organisation? If he's good at his job what exactly was the issue? ' The manager never elaborated.

Ed Robinson ● 2235d

Hello IvonneNot really but I'm not sure that the farmers are actually offering something that suits a lot of teenagers today.  Do you think they will stick three months of hard outdoor work?  I thought they all wanted to be pop stars.

Philippa Bond ● 2235d

Ed. For the avoidance of doubt I was just making some general comments not writing an HR policy or  for that matter  promoting the merits of IT or other methods of interview techniques. Yes, photo I'd is used to verify candidates' identities but the problem is it is difficult to tell whether someone answering questions on a phone is the one who applied and then turns up with the correct id at the stage following the phone interview  ... to be honest I haven't had to recruit for a few years but when I did I always liaised with and followed the policies/guidelines of the HR/Personnel dept  if they existed. It's interesting how in the 70/80s how many small/medium sized companies left recruitment to operational departments.  Anyway, note I did avoid the phrase "'fit' and healthy" which probably would get some HR people worried ... I did try 😶Yes, well, why am I not surprised about the ServiceNow story 🙂 Glad to say I've never had to work on or manage a "help" desk 💻!

Michael Ixer ● 2235d

He's much better  thank you Michael, but still tires easily and  sometimes the cough comes back although without the breathing  difficulties.

Lucille Grant ● 2235d

Ed. For the avoidance of doubt I was just making some general comments not writing an HR policy or  for that matter  promoting the merits of IT or other methods of interview techniques. Yes, photo I'd is used to verify candidates' identities but the problem is it is difficult to tell whether someone answering questions on a phone is the one who applied and then turns up with the correct id at the stage following the phone interview  ... to be honest I haven't had to recruit for a few years but when I did I always liaised with and followed the policies/guidelines of the HR/Personnel dept  if they existed. It's interesting how in the 70/80s how many small/medium sized companies left recruitment to operational departments.  Anyway, note I did avoid the phrase "'fit' and healthy" which probably would get some HR people worried ... I did try 😶Yes, well, why am I not surprised about the ServiceNow story 🙂 Glad to say I've never had to work on or manage a "help" desk 💻!

Michael Ixer ● 2235d

Hello Philippa, I read your post and wonder  you have changed your mind on this?

Ivonne Holliday ● 2235d

Ed. For the avoidance of doubt I was just making some general comments not writing an HR policy or  for that matter  commenting on the merits of IT or other methods of interview techniques. Yes, photo I'd is used to verify candidates' identities but the problem is it is difficult to tell whether someone answering questions on a phone is the one who applied and then turns up at the stage following  the phone interview with the correct id ... to be honest I haven't had to recruit for a few years but when I did I always liaised with and followed the policies/guidelines of the HR/Personnel dept  if they existed. It's interesting how in the 70/80s how many small/medium sized companies left recruitment to operational departments.  Yes, well, why am I not surprised about the ServiceNow story 🙂 Glad to say I've never had to workon or manage a "help" desk 💻!

Michael Ixer ● 2235d

Ed. For the avoidance of doubt I was just making some general comments not writing an HR policy or  for that matter  commenting on the merits of IT or other methods of interview techniques. Yes, photo I'd is used to verify candidates' identities but the problem is it is difficult to tell whether someone answering questions on a phone is the one who applied and then turns up at the stage following  the phone interview with the correct id ... to be honest I haven't had to recruit for a few years but when I did I always liaised with and followed the policies/guidelines of the HR/Personnel dept  if they existed. It's interesting how in the 70/80s how many small/medium sized companies left recruitment to operational departments.  Yes, well, why am I not surprised about the ServiceNow story 🙂 Glad to say I've never had to workon or manage a "help" desk 💻!

Michael Ixer ● 2235d

It would be a really good experience if youngsters had a go doing this farm work.  It can be fun working as a group.  This is not a good year though.  You can see why families used to move around the country taking their own caravans moving from farm to farm as various crops needed picking.

Philippa Bond ● 2235d

Thanks, Lucille, I tryBy the way, how's Jean getting on?

Michael Ixer ● 2235d

Michael,I'm becoming interested in your proposed video interview plan as I think you may be over IT-ing it, but it would be interesting if your video interview plan would get your own HR team's approval. Please share:)With veg/fruit picking I suspect the proof will be in the pudding.Passport/visas etc all have to be checked by employers.Coming back to IT, I had to laugh when someone failed their ServiceNow online exam which they were taken at home, due to them not having two video cameras. He hadn't read the requirements and assumed a laptop cam would be sufficient.

Ed Robinson ● 2235d

Talking sense  as usual Michael :-)

Lucille Grant ● 2235d

"The typos (including mine) - if that's what they are - are beginning to make this forum more interesting."Benevolent mutations? Evolution?I do like Ocado delivering unexpected replacements for the odd Not-in-Stock item. Sometimes they are improvements, sometimes interesting challenges. Though the 4 large bags of onions just floored me, but various neighbours gained.

David Ainsworth ● 2235d

Photos with CVs can be used for discriminating at an early selection stage. However, I'm not sure a video interview is anymore discriminatory than a traditional face-to-face one. Phone interviews were used at one time as initial screening interviews but if used at a later stage it could be difficult to ascertain that the person arriving was the one speaking on the phone. There need to be other controls within HR departments to guard against discrimination and verify identity. I suspect for fruit/veg picking they just want to see people healthy and capable of doing the job?

Michael Ixer ● 2235d

The typos (including mine) - if that's what they are - are beginning to make this forum more interesting.

Michael Ixer ● 2235d

"the toilet and wishing facilities"So the workers have to use the same well for both functions then?

David Ainsworth ● 2235d

Video interviews, like being asked to enclose a photo, must be potentially discriminatory (in a bad way), though a video interview would be good if they could show you where you were going to work and the hut you were going to live in and the toilet and wishing facilities, etc.

Peter Evans ● 2235d

Isn't this part of the problem?Has it been too easy to recruit overseas?  Shouldn't we also discuss the price of food and how much we waste?  Difficult when we have so many foodbanks.

Philippa Bond ● 2236d

Well I wonder if some of the Doctor's and Nurses would rather have been picking fruit in this nice weather we have had so far. Some people will complain whatever job they have, all the time they spend moaning about the job, they could have done the job.

Barbara Stevens ● 2236d

Sorry about your business Emarissa. That must be a huge worry.Possibly video interviews have overtaken telephone ones in the  21st century? I doubt very much that farmers  are too bothered about  how one looks but its a way of identifying a person that you cannot do merely by a phone conversation. I imagine also that looking through videos of  people answering questions saves farmers precious time instead of a two way phone or video conversation, when they need to be out  in the fields themselves.

Lucille Grant ● 2236d

I dont agree, what has what you look like got to with it? Why not a telephone interviewYes video interviews are more common - interview being the word, IE 2 people taking part. Not you filming yourself answering questions. And as said, what has your face got to do with strawberry picking?Anyway, doesn't matter to me, but the reasons i mentioned could be why people have changed their mind as there was a great response....which has become not so great

Emarisa Battoia ● 2236d

Video interviews are the norm now as a first cut of job applicants.  Saves time, costs and now more than ever complies with social distancing.

Robert Wheeler ● 2236d

I applied for one of these jobs as i have had to close my business for the time being. I didn't mind the minimum wage or the physical work, nor driving to Hampshire each day (didn't want to stay in a caravan)But, i had to commit to work until October, which i could not do. Also, they did not ring me or ask for a telephone interview etc, they wanted me to login to a video interview (with only me attending) and answer some questions. I didn't really fancy doing that, i am not tech savvy and do not have a camera on my computer, the wage didn't warrant me going out to buy one just for an interview, and to be honest i am not going to get stressed about getting interviewed by a machine, i have never done it before and to 'screen' people for farm picking is a bit weird. If they can't be bothered to ring me for a minimum wage job then they can interview themselves, by video, with just them attendingThey could just do a simple questionaire as part of the application process and then ring people who 'passed' their 'test'

Emarisa Battoia ● 2236d

Mr Hawkes, Thank you for your thoughts.   The reason I was suggesting GCSE and A-level students is because, in these extraordinary times we are living, we need creative solutions. The country, and the farmers, need their crops harvested and keep the food supply chain going, for everybody's benefit. As for students getting other forms of work, I am not too sure a lot is available at the moment, particularly as people are working from home and perhaps would be difficult to train anybody on work experience online.  I may be wrong.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2236d

Ms HollidayI know we can all look back to the glorious sunny days of our youth, but I did benefit from and enjoy working with other students harvesting peas for Birds Eye.I lived about an hour's bike ride away from the fields and could live at home.Others lived in 'dormitories' on site.Cleanish..... but jolly !We had a lot of fun and earned good money.I would consider what might be offered now as good money for students if they cannot get anything better from other forms of work.The minimum wage for 18-20 year olds is is £6.15 an hour.Working 9-6 makes £55 a day giving £330 a week giving £3,300 during the long vacation.A good proportion of a maintenance grant or contribution to a student loan.And if they and other, furloughed people can get £10 an hour .....even better.I am not a rabid Tory but a 'leftie'.However I do believe people should do their best to take care of themselves and not whinge about how unfair life is and how Dickensian are the conditions of work offered to them.

John Hawkes ● 2236d

YentabaThere was nothing racist in my comment.If you think differently then please explain why, giving examples either of style or content that are derogatory to a particular race.I would have made the same comment if you posed as Helmut  Schmidt, Francois Mitterand or whoever.I objected to your argument and its hyperbolic and mocking tone, which I took to mean that no one would or should work under the conditions you describe and hence by inference people should reject this work and take (inferior) benefits.There are millions working under such terms though not perhaps the condition of living in a caravan, a circumstance that used to be appropriate for a short time pre the pandemic in the area of farm work.Such workers include warehouse staff, call centre operatives, supermarket staff.They do so I am sure, not because terms and conditions are great but because they want to look after themselves and families and not rely on inferior state benefits.I think they should be better rewarded, but I salute their efforts to be self sufficient as best they can.You choose in my view to mock them.When you reply, perhaps you can tell us your real name, and also how you managed to obtain two passports.One of the attractions of this site is that people do not seem to hide behind aliases which in general (though I admit I sometimes fail) means that people are quite polite to each other and their views seem to match their persona.You seem to like mystery concerning yourself, though I am most of us could nor care a t0ss.As to your skin and eye colour-TMI ?PS you might give some readers a cause to laugh in calling me a Brexiteer !

John Hawkes ● 2236d

Yes Philippa, I agree.  On the other hand, a relative of ours is a nurse in South West England and earns £8.75 per hour. 

Ivonne Holliday ● 2236d

£6.45 per hour for 18-20 year oldsIt's graduated.  I expect the pay quoted will be for the 25+ age group.  To be fair there are other amounts that may be added for experience and performance.

Philippa Bond ● 2237d

Still problems to students working?

Philippa Bond ● 2237d

Families living and working together don't need to social distance from each other. One of the reasons that employing family groups is a bonus.  Students may be expecting to go to university and may not want to sign up for three months' work - August September and October I heard suggested this morning.

Philippa Bond ● 2237d

Philippa,  We live in extraordinary times I believe.  Many solutions need to be found and lateral thinking would not go amiss.  Therefore "Students may only want to do a month just as grape picking in France was the thing in my day" does not apply.    Inspiring students to do something for the country in extraordinary times would not be a bad idea. The issue of social distancing applies to students as well as foreign farm workers. Also, as far as I remember, students on work experience do not get paid — perhaps travel, but not much more. If you are not of school leaving age, you are not entitled to the national minimum wage.  Once you are 25 and above, you are entitled to the national living wage.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2237d

I don't like clown's or father christmas, like to see the face and eye's clearly. Otherwise they might have something to hide. Or appear from a drain in the road and grab you.

Barbara Stevens ● 2237d

Yes. ED as in Editor. Thanks Lucille.

Katrina Black ● 2237d

but fitting in the number of months that the farmers want to employ people for without having to retrain new ones may be difficult.  Students may only want to do a month just as grape picking in France was the thing in my day.  Not three months.  Social distancing will be a problem with housing unless they live nearby.  We lived in the same village as the daffodil farmer so travel was arranged for us - but even that could be difficult.Care companies in the UK find that they have an enormous turnover of staff (churn) and have to constantly teach newcomers the ropes on the job.  This is extremely tiring and demotivating for those longstanding older carers who keep those businesses going as they see the youngsters fail to stick around for long. (It is often those youngsters who find something more engaging to do with their time and who then may suddenly let everyone down by not turning up ("Am I bovvered?)).  They would love those youngsters to stay longer to make a stronger and more dedicated team.  Care workers are generally on the minimum wage and youngsters under 21 get even less minimum wage or certainly did.  Although entitled to travelling time between clients they often aren't paid for this. Apptmts tend to be booked one on top of another so somebody's visit always get clipped.  Churn also causes a lack of continuity of care.Foreign farmworkers tend to earn three or more times as much in the UK as they would at home.  This is an incentive for them to stay the course - which of course suits the employers. Did I hear that the living wage is being paid?  The National Living Wage or the Real Living Wage?  I think there's a lot of obfuscation.

Philippa Bond ● 2237d

People do behave differently in fancy dress or in a mask. Or is that just me?

David Ainsworth ● 2237d

I took it as meaning editor!

Lucille Grant ● 2237d

Sorry is this meant for me?Puzzled by the content vs topic.I'm not Imbuzi  I have trouble spelling Ed!

Ed Robinson ● 2237d

Good point Katrina. There is no need for a nom-de-plume, unless you have something to hide, of course!

Lucille Grant ● 2237d

Yes, we moved on to social housing and schooling for all children.  We still had libraries to encourage access to further education for all.I agree that working hard like that would be good for teenagers but wonder how many of them would be up to it nowadays.  Aren't many of them much more indulged (don't we all want better for our children) and many of those student and holiday jobs are no longer in existence.  I've always felt that the introduction of the AS level took away the community work that was an important part and was undertaken during the first year of the 6th form.

Philippa Bond ● 2237d

@ 27/04/20 08:16:00 Imbuzi YentabaNot using your real name is against the code of conduct you agree to on signing up.

Katrina Black ● 2238d

I agree Jane, the workhouses were not welcoming, cosy or uplifting places! Hugh, funny you should mention work experience.  Some time ago I had an appointment with Justine Greening at one of her surgeries and we touched on Brexit and its effects, of course.  I suggested that perhaps the academic year — or the exams timetable — could be modified in order to enable students sitting GCSE's and/or A levels to help farmers with harvesting their crops, mainly fruit picking.  This way, they would have work (and life) experience and also help the country with food distribution.  Of course, not much happened about this but I do think it would be a very good idea.  They are the perfect age group for this type of work.  Logistically it would not be that difficult to set up either. Needs must?

Ivonne Holliday ● 2238d

John Hawkesyou comment is racist, as you judged me by my Zulu nom de plumeYou can do better than that(I have uber pale skin and bright blue eyes and 100% pure English blood - I hope that makes you happy - I of course reject racism entirely)

Imbuzi Yentaba ● 2238d

Phillipa they also built workhouses for the slavesthis hardly a shining moment of our history, until Wilberforce of course

Imbuzi Yentaba ● 2238d

Victorian writers like Dickens himself and Hardy describe their contemporary workhouses as appalling places, hardly safe refuges for the homeless! It's too easy to look back at the past with rose tinted spectacles.

Jane Carter ● 2238d

Cant  understand why unemployed students and  those on a gap year have not rushed to a once in a life time(however hard) experience. Teaching in Nepal is OK but working the fields of East Anglia is not. A little bit of cultural snobbism going on? And remember Nepal is closed.

Hugh Thompson ● 2238d

The Victorians built workhouses for the homeless.  There were wealthy philanthropists who built libraries and schools and model villages for their workers to live  They tended to spend their money here in the UK and not avoid tax and stash it offshore.

Philippa Bond ● 2238d

The Brits are not lazy. As a dual Saffa Brit Ive worked with many 'pure' Brits. Fantastic hard workers. Just with a sufficient amount of prise not to be dickensian slaves.

Imbuzi Yentaba ● 2238d

JohnI am British (& South African!)You sound like a Brexitier(Imbuzi is a nom du plume)

Imbuzi Yentaba ● 2238d

Lol

Philippa Bond ● 2238d

Last year I picked strawberries at a Pick Your Own farm in Oxfordshire and was amazed that the strawberries were being grown in what appeared to be growbags on tables.  No bending!  Such a difference from rhe last time I'd done that as a teenager - pick one eat one.

Philippa Bond ● 2238d

I think that the contracts also need to be looked at.  I believe they are quite long and do not suit everyone eg those who may have other more important commitments.  The workers need to be skilled to use the machinery and the workers - many of them families - who were coming year after year are obviously easier for the farm owners to accommodate and deal with.  It must be worth their while to come here or they wouldn't.As a schoolgirl in my first job I picked daffodils.  It was hard work and I have never looked at King Alfreds in the same way since.  You mustn't split the stems or they're unsaleable and you were in trouble if you picked them before the flower buds had moved off the vertical. Cuticles were ripped and backs ached from bending as you walked along the rows. It would never suit anyone with the fancy nails that teenagers have today!

Philippa Bond ● 2238d

George Eustace this evening - suggesting furloughed people get to work on a fruit farm.Seemed to forget to mention that he owns a fruit farm...

Matt Palmer ● 2238d

There is the possibility that as automation - AI, robotics (including fruit picking devices currently being developed), drones, etc - mean more jobs become automated then it's possible that that there won't be sufficient jobs for everyone - at least not in the developed areas, or at least not jobs requiring sufficient hours or skills that they pay a living wage. I remember back in 1972/73 discussing with a university flatmate that in the future we might have to educate and train people in a life of leisure instead or or as well as work, and pay some type of basic income.  We don't know what sort of world will emerge after the current pandemic but the use of drones and other automation will have likely increased and many will have got used to working from home ... image if work was a couple of hours a day checking activity logs and production reports, and the rest was leisure; ok, perhaps every so often you'd have to log a support call with the engineer to drag them off the golf course to fix a robot ... but then at the end of the month you'd get a payment into your account from your employer adjusted down or up (most likely up)  by a tax or univeral income amount?      

Michael Ixer ● 2238d

Peter, it's not a case of "imposing".  We all work (and vote) to improve working conditions, but if you have no money you need to get out there and work.  I get a bit tired of people moaning that they're not offered enough money and therefore have to go onto benefits.Life is a struggle and we all need to get out there and struggle, and maybe at the same time work to protest about bad working conditions to improve lives.

Bunny Payne ● 2238d

Just because people were treated like sh*t years ago with terrible working conditions, low wages and long hours, why do we want to impose the same conditions on others years later? You'd think we'd all want conditions to improve, but seemingly not. Shades of The Three Yorkshiremen - 'We'd work at mill for 29 hours a day and pay for t'privilege!' I fear that, after the lockdown, all the praise for 'our vital key workers' will be replaced by the same divisive 'strivers and skivers' talk and 'living within our means' austerity propaganda we had before.

Peter Evans ● 2238d

I agree Bunny if some of us needed to work we would do anything to keep ourselves. I worked office in the week and Queen Mary's at the weekend, even if only in the snack bar, for 8yrs I worked 7 days a week.

Barbara Stevens ● 2238d

I am ashamed that my fellow Brits are now so lazy. As a young person living in the Channel Islands, there was no social benefits and you had to pay to see the doctor.  If you ran out of money, you would have to leave the island, because there was no backup (it's not like that now).As a young person I cleaned, waitressed, bartended and many other things before I was hired as an Air Traffic Control Assistant (ATCA).  People have to persevere and work hard,  I have also picked fruit in Kent, admittedly I lived there so could go home at the end of the day.  Nobody seems to have the pioneering spirit that used to exist, such a shame.

Bunny Payne ● 2238d

Goodness me Mr Hawkes you are beginning to sound like She-Who-Will-Remain-Nameless!

Lucille Grant ● 2238d

Mr Yentaba'And there is for the most part nothing wrong with the English'.Thank you for your flattering comment.Guess this is why you left your homeland to come and live amongst us.How are you managing to support yourself without being furloughed or on some form of state benefit ?Obviously well enough if you are not willing to put up with the conditions you describe for those 'working the land;.1) Minimum wage - many are on this and some on less. And many are immigrants willing to take what they can get to support themselves as they progress in their new homeland.2) Slave like targets - you know this for a fact ?3) Long hours - the nature of the work. Hours worked by many others.4) Communal living in a caravan - is this the only accomodation offered? Not for those living close.I am pleased to see that even with no income you manage to live in better conditions.We Brits should be proud we are looking after you so well  !

John Hawkes ● 2238d

at Wimbledon?

Philippa Bond ● 2240d

Probably includes cream?

David Ainsworth ● 2240d

Are you sure that that isn't an exaggeration?

Philippa Bond ● 2240d

"Address the conditions and there will be no problem recruiting locals. And there is for the most part nothing wrong with the English. They are just not prepared to be slaves in a Dickensian system." However no-one will be willing to pay 60p per strawberry which is what it would cost to upgrade the conditions. 

Rose Compton ● 2240d

It's a good point.The Brexit position was being sold on the fact that even cheaper food couple be imported into the UK.I'm not taking Brexit sides as both seem to be tribal.But if food prices drop - UK farmers crop farmers will be in a worse position to compete on price - which will mean lower wages and more imported labour.With all these things it best to look at the actual government actions than the rhetoric.

Ed Robinson ● 2240d

In the old days people from London used to bring their own caravans.  Hop picking was very popular with people from the East End especially, as it was a kind of "holiday" in the country and away from the factories and shipyards, out in the countryside.

Bunny Payne ● 2240d