Forum Topic

Priti Woke eh what !

In the current furore involving the Home Secretary, apparently - 'Supporters of Patel say she has been patronised and belittled because of her gender and race'.I am assuming these supporters are of a Conservative inclination who usually are vehemently dismissive when such comments are made to rebut criticism of the likes of Meghan Markal or Dianne Abbott.Commentators such as Piers Morgan and Sarah Vine in the Mail.How quickly Ms Patel turns into a snowflake and her supporters become so woke when they get a taste of their own medicine !

John Hawkes ● 2289d38 Comments

Ivonne, she's been Home Secretary for nearly nine months, so she should have a reasonable idea of how her department works by now but not all the intricacies of changing it and progressing the necessary legislation she wants to implements? I don't necessarily see anything wrong in her saying "this is what I want to achieve to meet our manifesto promises" but it should be followed by "so how can we best achieve this?" Of course we have to wait for the outcome of the inquiry and tribunal to know anything for sure, perhaps she is being treated unfairly. One suspects Johnson has to support her for now as having just lost a Chancellor the last thing he needs is a gap in the Home Office: who would he put there? So I guess he's playing for time but let's be honest if Ms Patel becomes more toxic Johnson will drop her without a second thought; he's not exactly known for his loyalty, is he?

Michael Ixer ● 2287d

Bunny. Many of us in IT have worked through the night or weekend when system problems occur or development projects are late and there are tight, drop dead, regulatory deadlines; it sort of goes with the territory and most of us are aware of that. (I'm sure those working in IT at Travelex, BA, TSB, TalkTalk, etc know all about that!) If one's working in a good team then there's often a sense of achievement and it can be fun or, as you say, the drink afterwards is. However, I have worked with at least a couple of people who've had breakdowns from such pressure. Even if one hasn't achieved everything because of factors outside of one's control I wouldn't expect to be bullied for that, normally companies have been grateful for the efforts and sometimes rewarded staff - if only by paying for the drinks afterwards ... 

Michael Ixer ● 2287d

I wholeheartedly agree with you Michael.   The problem I see with Priti Patel is that she seems to be too centered on "what I want" without considering her team first. Excuse me if I am wrong, but how long has she been Home Secretary?  

Ivonne Holliday ● 2287d

Seems really small beer really - a bit of bullying - last time she was sacked it was for treason.

Michael Winstanley ● 2287d

Ivonne, I'd agree with that. A good manager can adapt and compromise while still keeping the ultimate goal in sight. We can't always like the people we have to work with, the sign of maturity in a manager is the a ility to accommodate this provided people are otherwise competent. Of course, if thinks aren't working because of serious personality clashes or lack of ability or competencies that has to be addressed quickly and as fairly as possible without disrupting the whole team or project. If something isn't working its normally best for all parties to adjust it as soon as possible but it needs to be done professionally without vindictiveness. Of course in IT where there's a high level of staff mobility if one doesn't do this one soon finds there's no team, or job - or both! 

Michael Ixer ● 2287d

"Details of stories of staff taking overdoses after being bullied or collapsing after being up all night trying to reverse high court judgements"Nothing I'm particularly proud of, but I worked in Barclays Global Management in the City (or whatever name they had then) in the 1980s and this sort of work was perfectly normal.  I hope we don't go back to it, but I don't remember anyone taking overdoses or collapsing.  Drinking a bit too much at times, maybe, exhausting but quite fun too.

Bunny Payne ● 2287d

I think a disassociation of someone's management skills from their personality and interpersonal skills as well as ethics is a non-starter. What is important is for the person in question to understand these difficulties (shortcomings?) and try to overcome them.  It is not the others that are at fault, they cannot understand you.  The person in question should know how to deal with them. By this I mean, are you too straight forward and, in a way, uncompromising?  Without compromise, you cannot lead a team. 

Ivonne Holliday ● 2287d

John. That raises the question of whether someone's management skills can be dissociated from their personality and hence their interpersonal skills and ethics? 

Michael Ixer ● 2288d

'I'm not even sure that the manager really wants to get the best out of someone whom they treat in that way. I think that they may just want to get them out'.Mr AinsworthI think you are right and Patel seems to have taken against people in three different departments.She has every right to want to move people but there are proper and less damaging ways of doing it than her approach.The way she does it, shouting, screaming, swearing and  belittling says more about her as a person and her character than it does about her management skills.

John Hawkes ● 2288d

Mr MacLeodI think the person you refer to is also a great fan of Donald Trump !

John Hawkes ● 2288d

Mr IxerI quite agree that the firmness of direction would be greater towards more junior staff whilst still displaying some humanity.And one of course would be a mug not to listen very carefully to those who have been around in the business for some time who it might be assumed have the experience to know something of what they are talking about.But yes in the end the boss makes the decision.Something else has just struck me.Civil servants are always getting the stick for being theorists who cannot implement or manage.On the other hand what experience do many ministers have of running large organisations and managing thousands of people - ie being a CEO of a big business which is what a Minister of State is ?All Patel has done in the real world is work in politics for the Referendum Party (remember them ?!) and then in PR as a lobbyist for the tobacco and alcohol industries.Never 'run' or managed any organisation or business in her life.Perhaps on appointment ALL ministers should be packed off to business school for at least 6 months before they really take up the reins !Then they would be better qualified in the job they do and would have more of a right to criticise senior civil servants !

John Hawkes ● 2288d

In my limited experience of experiencing such treatment, "fear and insult" produced negative results. Difficult to do a better job when your knees are wobbling. I'm not even sure that the manager really wants to get the best out of someone whom they treat in that way. I think that they may just want to get them out.

David Ainsworth ● 2288d

A Forum consensus seems to be emerging (SH excepted, of course) that Priti Patel is regarded by her civil servants as a bully. Meanwhile the Prime Minister considers her to be an angel. In my experience, bullies attack those below them and pander to those above.

Alexander MacLeod ● 2288d

John. That all seems fair and reasonable comment. I'd add that one needs to be adoptable: I'd take a leading, more authoritarian, guiding attitude when running a team of junior programmers who had far less experience than me and a more facilitation role when managing a team of experienced IT technitions, some of who would have far more expertise than me in some areas, as it would be unwise to ignore them - although ultimately as the manager one has to make the final decision and take the responsibility (and the praise or blame). Still, I used to joke that if one has a bright young ambitious person give them the difficult task with the tight deadline and they might just have the motivation and fresh thought to pull it off not knowing it was nearly impossible (obviously being reasonable if they didn't!) whereas someone experienced might just tell one why it couldn't be done ... but maybe in a more robust way 😶

Michael Ixer ● 2288d

1) There is a case being made that the Home Office Civil Service 'has it in for' Patel because they do not want to implement her policies.That is why she had to rave, shout, insult and threaten in order to get them to obey.But then we read she acted similarly when she was at DFID and the Department of Work and Pensions.Were civil servants at all three departments against her policies and wanted to thwart them ?; worse, was there an inter department conspiracy conspiring against her ?; or is it that her personal and management style are just naturally abrasive, confrontational and rude ?2) If she is not really trying to harm her civil servants but just cannot help herself because 'that is how she is', is she in the right job; in fact is she suited to any executive role in government or business ?3) All those that boldly say 'these civil servants should just 'man up' or 'grow some' (bearing in mind some of them are women !) should ask themselves is that the way they personally would choose to be managed. I doubt it.4) For those that have had management experience, do they think management by fear and insult proved to be most effective in getting things done and the best out people OR clear direction and rigorous follow up and guidance conducted in an atmosphere of respect for the individual in an open and encouraging environment ?In the end, people may just not come up to the mark, this may have to be called out and finally they may have to be moved on.But all of this can be carried out without treating people like serfs and showing concern for them as human beings.Anyway, that was my style !

John Hawkes ● 2288d

'I have found her statements on Criminal Justice to be unrealistic and impractical ie. locking up more offenders for longer sentences, but with no plans for reforming the Prison Service, which at present is struggling to cope, let alone being able to rehabilitate prisoners' Ms WhiteheadIt is so refreshing to see rational criticism such as this on this site.So different from the usual invective.

John Hawkes ● 2288d

Ms HammondWho is calling her a witch ?

John Hawkes ● 2288d

One would have thought that, in her position, she would be very aware of her shortcomings or lack of in-depth knowledge of a particular ministry or office.  It is impossible for her to have every detail at her fingertips.   Whatever anyone tells me, going in to a new post like a bull in a china shop is never going to help to create a positive work atmosphere nor ensure you get the back up you require.  Neither do you shoot the messenger.   What BoJo and Priti Patel have in common is that they appear to know-it-all.  Briefs were prepared for BoJo while Foreign Minister and we know what happened to those. If she is, in fact frustrated by the Whitehall bureaucracy, one must ask the question then, is she in the correct position?  Trying to change the way the Home Office operates from the moment you arrive is bound to create frictions.  Some people there have been working for 10+ years and know the ins-and-outs.  Perhaps Priti Patel should learn a bit more humility and accept there are people at the Home Office that have a greater in-depth knowledge and understanding on how it operates.  

Ivonne Holliday ● 2288d

Every 4 or 5 years we elect or re elect thd politicians but the civil service remains largely unchanged. Maybe we should follow the local labour party's view on the Chief Execs vacancy at Wandsworth. Cllr Hogg seems to  be saying that if elected they will replace the CEO. Big pay off or tribunal on it's way.

Andy Pike ● 2288d

I was just thinking: we've move on a bit since the 1960s when I have vague memories of discussions about whether the civil service would implement Wilson's socialist policies or if the armed forces might revolt against the defence minister, Dennis Healy. (Perhaps exaggerated in my memory?)

Michael Ixer ● 2288d

She may well be frustrated by the Whitehall bureaucracy, however,  she now looks like getting bogged down in an employment tribunal and that may not end well ... Details of stories of staff taking overdoses after being bullied or collapsing after being up all night trying to reverse high court judgements won't look good in the press and if found true may lose the taxpayer a lot of money. We don't know the details of why the preparations for the extradition flight to Jamaica were handled so incompetently that it had to be delayed because of a high court order, and even home secretaries have to learn even they have to respect the law. However, I can draw parallels with IT projects I've seen where senior managers have made unrealistic demands contrary to the advice of their own technicians and lost companies millions and, fortunately, their own jobs though, sadly, also the jobs of others. As Jonathan says, alienating those whose support one needs to succeed is unwise and endures a good kicking down the stairs on the way-out ... I'm not saying whether that's right or not, I'm sure the civil service does need to modernise, but just being realistic. 

Michael Ixer ● 2288d

"One suspects she's failed to adapt from the mutually aggressive management style of PR agencies - which might be necessary when one is lobbying on behalf of the tobacco and alcohol industries - to the more structured government environment of the civil service which is manipulative style and, while respectful of positional power, doesn't expect it to be abused. Simple message: adapt one's management style to the culture of the organisation and its employees' ambition's then make changes it with influence and buy in ...."One also suspects she may have been pi$$ed off with self important mandarins not carrying out the instructions given to them by Ministers.

Sue Hammond ● 2288d

The other lesson she hasn't learnt is to let one's subordinates do the dirty work while you rise above it: I once worked for an organisation that had the Scottish Head of IT and the Southern Head of IT reporting to the Group Operations Director. The abbreviations on the management meetings minute's attendance list was interesting ... 

Michael Ixer ● 2288d

One suspects she's failed to adapt from the mutually aggressive management style of PR agencies - which might be necessary when one is lobbying on behalf of the tobacco and alcohol industries - to the more structured government environment of the civil service which is manipulative style and, while respectful of positional power, doesn't expect it to be abused. Simple message: adapt one's management style to the culture of the organisation and its employees' ambition's then make changes it with influence and buy in .... 

Michael Ixer ● 2288d

"Was a time when knights of the realm went off to fight wars and dragons.Now they are reduced to tears because the nasty lady raised her voice and shouted at me !! Come on Sir trusty knight and grow a pair !!"Snivel Servants!!😩

Sue Hammond ● 2288d

A classic case of making a lot of enemies on the way up. They will queue up to kick her on the way back down. She is entirely the author of her own misfortunes.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2288d

Was a time when knights of the realm went off to fight wars and dragons.Now they are reduced to tears because the nasty lady raised her voice and shouted at me !! Come on Sir trusty knight and grow a pair !!

Andy Pike ● 2288d

Witch-hunt.

Sue Hammond ● 2288d

And when that supporter of Brexit and your immigration policies, etc is briefing against you!https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1249738/Priti-Patel-latest-news-home-secretary-bullying-civil-service-conservative-Jeremy-Vine

Michael Ixer ● 2288d

I agree with Bunny that Priti Patel seems to be a 'tough' woman but, as Jonathan Callaway has pointed out, bring tough is not enough. One has to be able to work with other people to achieve real change.I have found her statements on Criminal Justice to be unrealistic and impractical ie. locking up more offenders for longer sentences, but with no plans for reforming the Prison Service, which at present is struggling to cope, let alone being able to rehabilitate prisoners. At least Michael Gove, in the short time he was Justice Secretary, had some constructive ideas about reforming the prison service, however these were thrown out when Liz Truss took over, and she didn't last long. Let's hope that Priti Patel doesn't fall out with the present Justice Secreatary Robert Buckland.

Caroline Whitehead ● 2289d

Ms Carter,I did not know that.Very interesting and another example of double standards.

John Hawkes ● 2289d

Mr PayneMy point is that ironically her Conservative supporters are claiming the attacks on her stem from racism and sexism, whatever she herself believes.

John Hawkes ● 2289d

Michael, I agree with you and am only getting involved because it fascinates me.  Firstly this thing about racism, where on earth did that come from?  I can only think social media which is to be immediately ignored as ignorant rubbish.And then sexism?  I really don't see Priti Patel being bothered by some stupid idiots making "sexist" remarks about her, I'm sure she's a lot tougher than that, as are most intelligent women.I don't think anyone should worry about her sex and race, I'm quite sure she doesn't!!

Bunny Payne ● 2289d

One does always worry that someone might be targeted because of their sex and race, and we has to keep in mind we've not met her to make an accurate personal judgement. However, as Jane points out, she does appear to be cavalier with the facts when it suits her and the fact she put herself in the position where Mrs May had no option but to sack her shows either a lack of judgement or arrogance - or both? I've worked with abrasive, difficult and demanding people but the good ones have listened to alternative views and either explained abruptly (but usually respectively) why my idea is idiotic or taken it on board, or even on one occasion apologised for dismissing my view as we headed to an employment tribunal and a payout - and I have had difficult moments breaking bad news about projects although being honest normally works best in the long term. Those who surround themselves with yes people and ignore the truth usually fail eventually. I can belive the civil service can sometimes be obstructive but I find it difficult to believe a senior civil servant would take this action lightly; he refused the offer of a deal when many would accept the money and rush on to a non exec director position until the gold plated pension clocked in. But that would mean signing a an NDA, so one assumes there's a few other stories waiting for the employment tribunal. She does come over as ruthlessly ambiguous but trashing those who can support you doesn't normally assist with that - when one's doing something that isn't going to work the person to find that out first should be you before jumping in with both feet!

Michael Ixer ● 2289d

In my experience working in large organisations (and small ones) people who demonstrate her alleged behaviour towards those working for them rarely make a success of it.  So they want rapid change, a new approach, they have an “ambitious” agenda, aggressive deadlines, etc, etc, but alienating those who will be tasked to design and execute said agenda will simply not work. If you can’t bring your team with you, if you can’t get them fighting for you, then failure beckons. And just bringing new top (and compliant and/or likeminded) management in probably won’t work either. Changing the way large organisations work is a long job and needs skill, diplomacy, determination and tenacity not to mention exemplary powers of persuasion.  She may have a few of these qualities but not enough of the ones that matter.  Dominic Cummins will find this out too, sooner or later. This is not going to end well.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2289d

I'm sorry that she has got mixed up in all this.  Whilst the resigned civil service has the absolute right to do what he has and, with presumably such a high powered job, is a decent and honest man. I have been backing Priti Patel, my personal feeling (not knowing her at all) is that she's an extremely abrasive and difficult person, but surely that's the reason she's been given the job, to make difficult and unpopular decisions and plans and not be pushed into a corner and back down.

Bunny Payne ● 2289d

Ms Patel is a classic case of pulling up the ladder. When it was pointed out to her that according to her new criteria for entry to the UK, her own parents would not have qualified, she claimed they would have come as refugees because they were persecuted by Idi Amin. Quite apart from the fact that she has shown little sympathy with the plight of refugees, her parents emigrated to the UK in the 1960sand settled in Hertfordshire, several years before President Idi Amin came to power and expelled Ugandan Asians in 1972. They were economic migrants

Jane Carter ● 2289d

Ms Patel says she did not know about the earlier £25,000 payment to somebody who had been badly treated by her. This surely can't be true. Johnson, by ordering a Cabinet Office inquiry, is trying to kick the latest complaint against her into the long grass. I have the feeling that the resigned civil service Head of Home Office is in no mood to back down. Sooner or later Ms Patel's actions will be tested in a tribunal. Will she turn up to testify, and will she forget that too?

Alexander MacLeod ● 2289d